Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

GDC was never supposed to be the owner of the project. When we tried to go that route, it all clashed on trying to agree on details. Joerg came up with Neo900 idea, did a lot of work evaluating its feasibility and putting the seeds of interest into community here and there (not only Neo900 itself, but also Fremantle porting initiative and other stuff not visible at first glance) and it's understandable that he didn't want to "sell" it completely to GDC, making it fully a GDC property.

Of course it would be easier if he said "yeah, whatever, I don't care", but I don't think such attitude would be healthy for the project. It would be even more damaging than all the refunds :P

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Yes, but there's an even more compelling explanation why I CANNOT do this (and believe me I had preferred to actually say "yeah, whatever...", and rather avoid all this hassle we now are confronted with) : I promised N900/fremantle compatibility, and for that I'm responsible and every single one of you can call me out on it. This results in certain hw-level decisions that MUST be followed to make Neo900 the product we promised. GDC/Nikolaus comes from the Openmoko side and has a very limited experience with maemo and the original N900. So it's again about responsibility in the end, I promised sth to community and can't control that it gets implemented.
On a sidenote: I've still been on "health recovery holiday" during last week and so wasn't really involved in the discussion that resulted in Nikolaus' own analysis making him decide that the organization must change - there's been no dissent or argument. While he's perfectly aware that I'm in charge to specify such maemo-compatibility-related bits, he correctly claims that his past role in the project (holding funds == hat on) doesn't allow him (legally) to unconditionally run the project according to my decisions, and he never felt happy with that role as well. So it had to change. The project doesn't "crumple" or fall apart, it rather consolidates and approaches what initially been planned and every member of Neo900 team (incl Nikolaus) feels it should be. Sorry for the noise this causes, we tried to avoid such noise but were not able to find a smoother way.

HTH
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I know, I run my own company, so I'm aware of taxes when transferring money between two companies, etc. I was only worried about the fact that bank gets some small percentage of money when recalculating between currencies, so I would rather skip the double currency change (eur -> pln -> eur) as it is pointless. Now when I think of it, I could even sign some sort of paper (and sent it to GDC using snail mail maybe?) that I don't want my money back by bank transfer, but I e.g. give permission to person XXX (let's say Joerg ;) ) to collect my money in person and another paper stating that I give him permission to put my money to "Neo900 gmbh-or-something". By the way, when giving refunds - what about VAT tax? Let's say I paid 1 euro to GDC, part of it was VAT tax - will the refund be lowered by the VAT amount or will the full 1 euro be refunded (I'm totally skipping the part about lowering the refund by the cost of prototypes and designs so far, I know, but this is irrelevant in this question)? And can somehow the double VAT be skipped (it was paid once by GDC, now it will be paid again by "Neo900 gmbh-or-something", oh god I love taxes...)? If it cannot be skipped anyway, what is the tax difference between direct GDC-"neo900" money transfer and money transfer with buyer-in-the-middle? (if that is irrelevant to this thread, feel free to post me a pm, I have near zero knowledge about german tax law and I'm just curious)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

of course a refund will also refund the VAT. Alas Nikolaus now needs to rollback all the transactions in his book-keeping and between GDC and tax office, but the VAT is not supposed to stay at tax office when the payment gets returned. Probably the Neo900 UG also has to pay VAT to (a different) tax office as soon as donations come in, so GDC refunds complete amount incl VAT to you (minus fees and expense already done), you are free to donate any amount to Neo900 UG, and Neo900 UG has to pay VAT to tax office again. In any case there's only one time VAT being paid, in the end. All this been a huge part of the problem we had with direct transfer of funds from GDC to Neo900 UG, though I don't know details of the troubles this caused inside GDC accounting.
On a sidenote: the UG received the tax ID today, so one more step completed.
Sorry I can check details on how to proceed on Monday the earliest, my tax advisers don't do overhours at weekend :-)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Frankly, from my perspective, it would be *much* more healthy, that ~300 people getting refunds, loosing on conversion/transfer rates. and then hoping, that they will donate again. I would expect it to be a success, if half of those people decide to throw money at the project again, after receiving refund due to "who is the leader" problems (simplified a little, but it boils down to that, after all).

Of course, given the dedication that Maemo's people have for the project I may be very, very wrong, and amount of lost preorders may be negligible, even despite the incoming Pyra, which, incidentally, is similarly featured and priced device with same FOSS principles. I sincerely hope that I am - the N900's form factor (alongside Neo900 upgrades) would be a perfect thing, just as reinob said. In a year's time, I would *love* to be laughing on how silly my current pessimistic predictions were.

/Estel

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Thanks for your opinion, it's duly noted now.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Do I need to invoke marshal law?

I know something was fishy when this Nicklaus guy never was in the forum but still made lots of stuff in the dark. Refund all supporters? Oh god, why...

I think something good come out of this. I don't know what but ...

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I think I can answer that: it forces Neo900 UG to find its own way of collecting donations. A hassle at the start but a good thing once set up.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Nikolaus just prefers to use communication tools like e-mails instead of forums and IRC. His registration here was a surprise to me ;) But that doesn't mean something is fishy or he's in the dark. He's easily available on OpenPhoenux mailing lists, for instance, and also on our contact e-mail.

Couldn't say it better :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

the general feeling i'm getting is that new direction/location for donations is how it should have been from the very beginning. it's a new venture, problems arise and joerg and the others involved just have to deal with it. As has been stated already, the initial announcement could have been better worded, but communication since have shown to me that all involved are still devoted to seeing the project through.

As a extra incentive for anyone disheartened by the recent news, are there any extra pics/news on the actual development you could post to reassure them.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I know this has been discussed before in a long time ago, but what stopped neo900 from using the likes of kickstarter or indiegogo? I just want clarification. Because kickstarter or indiegogo would allow worldwide donations, and more publicity at that.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Kickstarter, Indiegogo, and their ilk is in the game for a business reason. They take their cut from the cake and also place restrictions on the form and content of the support.

I prefer an own-spun crowdfunding/preorder system, even if it is a bit hazzle to set up and maintain.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Chaps,

On behalf of those of us who would be keen to buy a neo900 but didn't & don't have funds to put towards a sometime maybe poduct, could I ask you to start a new announce thread when there is a concrete new structure and plan in place? I'd like to know if/when things are back on track, but really don't need to know the ins and outs of refunds etc.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Seems like the idea about transfering refunds directly to the Neo900 UG account might not work (not allowed) for the 50% of CC donations we received. We can check details only on Monday. Stay tuned, we're working on it!

[edit]
I wonder if it maybe would be feasible for those donors using CreditCard to change their order on Golden Delicious customer website. From "Neo900 donation" to "THANK-YOU certificate with your personal member ID in neo900-lovers club, hand-signed by Joerg" (or whatever, we even could ship T-shirts :) and the VIPclub-ID ). Then maybe GDC could buy those cerificates (and T-shirts) at UG and ship them to the customers.
[/edit]

cheers
jOERG

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Let's hope the new donation method is worldwide and will be available within the next 2 weeks when I'm available. I really really need this to happen (the neo900 ;))

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I'm up to some moderation, moving the complete "refunds" subthread to a new real thread soon

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

I've heard about the credit card refund before joerg. In UK, AFAIK, any refund on cc needs to go back to the originating account. we couldn't offer cash alternative, can't remember if credit note for store was an option. its a anti-fraud thing. imagine the problems if your ex girlfriend went and returned all your expensive gadgets and diverted cash/refund to her account.

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

OK. We will also publish a news story on neo900.org, its newsletter, RSS channel etc., just like progress updates, to ensure that nobody misses it :)

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

If i understand right goldelico wanted that joerg's work to be passed to them to have the power to make all the "shots" , and that's why all the mess with the neo900?

dave , take a break from trolling on neo's thread :D
sorry for off-topic

Re: Neo900 - finally a successor of N900
 

Alecsandru,
there's no use in doing such speculations. We had a continuous discussion process about organization of Neo900 project during last almost 3 months, we realized that we messed up a few 'minor' details in the very beginning - thanks to rushing the setup of the organizational structure resp the concept - and there been a lot of ideas how to fix that which got tossed around and finally got rejected because something wasn't right / didn't work with them, or tax advisors told us "that can't get done" (even for ideas the same tax advisors suggested a 4 weeks earlier)

cheers
jOERG

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

who are "them" ?
and how about hardware parts? buyed ones? goldelico will have a small role in making the neo or the neo will go foward without them?
who owns the pcb design?

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

"them"? Sorry you lost me on that one. The ideas?
hardware parts are basically property of donors. It doesn't matter where they stay until we need them.
GolDeliCo will have the same role in HW development as usual, at least that's what we think about that right now. Yet to get confirmed. Please stay patient. No, Neo900 most likely cannot go forward without the expertise of Nikolaus, his expertise is a key aspect in success of the project at large. And nobody planned for such thing, Neo900 is based on GTA04 experience, mind you?
PCB layout for now is owned by GDC/Nikolaus, we need to discuss this but it won't be any obstacle for the project since in the end it doesn't matter who "owns" the layout. It might become relevant when it comes to publishing the project data (eagle project files) which we may or may not do eventually, depending on what we agree upon inside the Neo900 team. The layout contains assets GDC owned and brought to the project and thus still owns them now

cheers
jOERG

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

I think that for those who need the clarity here this may help.

The fact is... a partnership 'tween GDC and the community is a great one...from what I/we are told ...the people involved can/do get along great.
I believe it.

It isn't that it's interpersonal.... that isn't the hurdle.

It isn't that the two parties thought it couldn't make the device.

It isn't that the two parties thought the legal hurdles were insurmountable...both parties were initially told BY ADVISORS that their partnership was doable...Later...digging deeper...the advisors returned and said that after more indepth analysis of the situation...their initial findings were incorrect. There are or will be problems with this form of collaboration.

It is legislative... it is government...it is tax departments ....it is the "systems'" machinery and how it is set up ..that don't want to make this current in-place method of collaboration work.

When any other device or thing is made....it is usually done by one entity and they make their product themselves or make whatever purchases or deals are necessary with their suppliers or minor partners....

I can only imagine the nightmare of legalese between the partnership of an org and and corp .....
and the thought just gives me the shudders ....

I can't fathom....I can't even guess at the number of migraines that the legal end of all of this has produced for those directly in it's line of fire.

If the legal/ taxation systems in place (that we have no control over) will not allow the continuation of this TYPE of working relationship...

Then in essence (very very simply put) changing the wording of that relationship on paper ....and hence having one entity alone in charge and continuing the work with GDC makes a great deal of sense...


On the topic of refunding funds...my personal take is this:
Personally to make things look right legally (I hate the fact that) we may have to have the (remaining) donated funds returned to us...send it on to Joerg...so he can then in a proper legal fashion send it right back to GDC.

Oooooh! Steams my knickers ....

who was the historical figure who said ...." ...the lawyers first..."...

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

This refund thing is going to irritate a few people (or most).
I will lose quite a bit due to the lowering AUS dollar Vs EUR.

Then the bank is now taking a 3% cut for international purchases.

See if you can find any way to just transfer it - Or spend it all before the refund, or a crap load of parts or pay for services so there is nothing let to refund,

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

BINGO! THAT'S IS THE BEST IDEA. I AM SOOO WITH YOU ON THIS!!!

GDC is still going to need the money...

Be a shame if all my deposit got spent already (:D)
...so there was no remainder to send back to me through money-gouging fee-grabbing tax-biting transfers ....only to send it back through the same money-gouging fee-grabbing tax-biting transfers ...

How much would there be when it finally returns to the project I wonder?

Yes ...spend mine too...don't let my donation drain away through transfers and re-transfers...that is a horrible waste.

Re: Is it fair to call Neo900 "100% open device"?
 

Hmm...if it is possible to transfer the deposit of non cc paying donors to ug ...then is it possible to "juggle" a bit and spend ....sayyyyy... ALL my cc donated funds.....or "slide" the expended balance of say both mine and a non cc paying clients deposit to my balance sheet..so that ....tragically....sadly :D....It wouldn't get fed on by ravenous fee-weevils only to end up back with you guys to accomplish the same purpose without the wasted time ...effort...and money?....

There has gotta be some way to tap-dance off this grease-covered ice rink! :D

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Stay tuned! We still hope to sort it out so you don't need to worry. I got an appointment for a meeting with my tax adviser tomorrow.
In one or two days there should be a new statement regarding how to donate to Neo900 UG going public (if things don't fail again).
And maybe we manage to directly transfer all donations, on your instructions you send to GDC. You'll receive a mail eventually.

Meanwhile for those who really can't wait, the bank account data of Neo900 UG (haftungsbeschraenkt) is available for highly appreciated donations on personal inquiry via mail to contact@neo900 dot org, and on IRC
/j

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Finally,
on Goldelico's side all aspects are clarified to really do the reorganisation.

We are able to forward refunds directly to Neo900 UG (if you agree and instruct us to do so). This was a big wish from the community to simplify the process and not to lose anything by currency conversion.

If you don't agree, you will get a real refund and can decide to order and pay again to Neo900 UG (I cordially invite you to do that!).

All aspects will be given in details in a personal e-mail to all those registered with an order/preorder/donation asap (i.e. within the next days).

Finally, some of you wondered why I suddenly write here on the forum but did not before. Well, I run several projects in parallel and I am active on several mailing lists. So I can neither read everything nor comment everything, unless a topic is of highest importance. Otherwise, I would not be able to do any real work and get things done: like schematics, PCB design, researching for components, writing kernel drivers, maintain the GTA04 kernel, etc. and last but not least running GDC.

-- hns

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Lol :10 chars: why not a new fresh partial sticky thread or placing it in first post by any of the project managers ? It is destined to get burried and newcomers to the project wont notice it either.

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Important things first: Many thanks Nikolaus for sorting this and for the fine solution you came up with.

On Neo900 UG side consultations with tax adviser (yesterday) resulted in him forwarding me to a lawyer, to develop the fineprint for donation page stating the details of how we will handle and what we will do with your donation. This probably will take several more days (need to find a lawyer willing to do this for a reasonable wages, and then actually develop a fineprint text that doesn't create similar trouble like we seen with the first one). Until this got completed, the [donate] button on Neo900.org will simply jump to a page providing not much more than the bare account details and an instruction what to put into the subject of any money order getting transferred to the UG account.
The spirit, idea and concept behind the donation remains the same, so for our donors nothing relevant will change, but we can't do it with that fineprint we had so far, that's been our big mistake we made. Again sorry for that.
Please stay tuned, I'm working on it to improve the user experience and the legal situation of the whole project.
Meanwhile I suggest and ask you all to simply agree on GDC forwarding your refund to the Neo900 UG account and to add your email-address into the subject of such transfer. Legally this turns your donation from whatever it's right now in the notion of german Tax Office into a true clean donation to Neo900 UG, something that it meant to be from beginning. By agreeing to this you also agree to GDC forwarding the data of your order (amount, date of transfer, special requests, etc) to Neo900 UG so we can handle your donation correctly. Again sorry for the noise and possible feelings of discomfort and uncertainty we created by this mistake we made, I hope we're now finally close to sorting it for good.

cheers
jOERG

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Some announcement on Neo900 website would be handy as well...

...oh wait, that's me who's responsible for that! :eek: Let me hide in the corner then - but with text editor of course ;)

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Newcomers to the project are not supposed to worry about the finally fixed mistakes we made during early phase of Neo900 project. This whole thing is only relevant for those who already donated to GDC account.

cheers
jOERG

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

why don't you guys make use of crowdfunding websites, like Kickstarter?

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

simple answer: kickstarter doesn't like Europe. Real reason: we don't like kickstarter.
/j

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Kickstarter just started in the Netherlands.

and also, there are more websites like indigogo....?

there are many (geeks) people out there who haven't heard about this project..
This is why kickstarter would be a good place to show the project.

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

I didn't know about kickstarter now allows European projects. Anyway the concept seems incompatible with our approach to donate to a development that has a (however small) risk to fail and not result in a product.
We may consider kickstarter et al for 2nd batch, when we actually got a product and thus are certain about its feasibility, properties/specs and price.

/j

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

How specifically ?

Just to clarify, this is something we should ask GDC to do ?

- Werner

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

Posts here are just "FYI". Goldelico will send an e-mail to every donor with detailed instructions.

So if there will be any action required, it will be described in the e-mail, so no need to worry about that :)

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

I am glad that you are not considering Kickstarter. Based on the iControlPad 2 fiasco (do a search for "icp2 kickstarter" for the background), I can only conclude 3 things:

1. Kickstarter and Amazon Payments skim a lot off the top
2. Kickstarter is risky for developers, since their TOS requires that the end result is tangible product returned to the backers (or full refunds, presumably)
3. Kickstarter is risky for backers, since Kickstarter doesn't appear to enforce their TOS as mentioned above

Kickstarter is good for a lot of things, but electronic hardware development and production is probably not one of them.

Re: Change in Organization, for a better project
 

I suppose GDC will implement two buttons to your customer order management page you received the URL in your invoice
Please forward my refund to Neo900 UG
Please send my refund to this account: "BIC:____; IBAN:_____; Bank Name:____"
Then you'll receive a mail from GDC asking you to visit your customer order management page and select either of both. I don't know exactly what Nikolaus is planning to do, but this approach seems least effort for customers and him.

cheers
jOERG