Re: It's over
 

Which is rather sad; Nokia apparently can't seem to market well outside of Europe,
Which is rather sad; Nokia apparently can't seem to market well outside of Europe.

Now such a statement just cannot go unchallenged for its sheer demonstration of insularity. (Unless you think that 'Europe' is that big bit outside the US)

38 million symbian phones shipped from April to June 07. Nokia sold 100 million phones worldwide in q2 worldwide. Thats in 3 months fanboys. Compare that to Apple aiming to sell a paltry 10 million iphones in the first YEAR. Compare that to 40 million ipods sold EVER. We are talking different leagues here people.

BTW Europe is now only Nokias 4th biggest market, after China, India and the USA.

All Apple have really achieved with the iphone was to fragment the American market even further (with blackberry, win mobile, palm and apple slugging it out in the USA for 5% of the worlds population, Nokia are their symbian partners have been quietly wrapping up the rest of the world.)

Re: It's over
 

If the ipod touch had a built in mic and bluetooth so that you could tether it to a phone, I'd buy one. This thing will never be able to run skype. Now, make an iphone without the radio and you'd be talking. I bet they had to skirt around some of the features to appease AT&T.

Anyway, until then, I'll use my N800. Love affairs with technology are notoriously short. Yesterday's iPod is literally going into tomorrow's scrap heap. In a few years it will be the same with our N800s.

Re: It's over
 

Great points, but not to mention the ability to sync all important data. I still think that if the N800 had a real contact/calendar syncing application, it would have gained better traction. I can see the iTouch taking N800 sales. You have iTunes, and the iTouch all in one handy dandy consumer friendly package. Hard to beat. I wonder is Ovi listening. :)

Re: It's over
 

It's called iTunes, and the iTunes Store. An iPod is part of a system, and has an extremely simple workflow that allows even the novice to completely experience all of its (albeit limited) features. Point is, there are little to no unexplored corners, no features wasted and unused. Someone who has never heard of a codec can enjoy feature films, video podcasts and music with a very small learning curve.

To compare, the 770 (and subsequently the N800) was put out there in a let's-see-what-you-can-do-with-this mentality. That's perfect for the tinkerers and hobbyists, but its quite clear that most people are not hackers, computer engineers or programmers. Finding a clear purpose for a device is hard if someone isn't leading the way, especially when there *are* limitations, such as memory and processor-speed. Functions feel unnecessary or poorly-designed. The thing itself feels unfocused.

Promise a slick media experience with effortless synchronization and odds are you can deliver. Promise a complete laptop-like browsing experience in your pocket and odds are you can't.

In summary, it's better to do 50% of things to 100% satisfaction than 100% of things to 50% satisfaction. That's been the success of Apple these days, and why people will flock to an Apple solution -- because of the promise of a complete experience, even if it comes with incomplete functionality.

But incomplete to who? That's the point. We like the ITs because our requirements for features is large. But right now, we're the exception, and in many ways the ITs are ahead of the curve.

Re: It's over
 

Hah, was just thinking about that -- this might be a great time for something to "accidentally" leak out of Nokia HQ, if they know what I mean...

Re: It's over
 

No joke huh, I mean, I bought my N800 because I knew what it could and couldn't do, and it fit just right for me as a sysadmin, but it doesn't mean I have to stick with it.
If Nokia would be up front with it's plans for the N800, I would have a better time recommending it to other (non ubergeek) people. If they were up front, us geeks would stick with it for the long haul, and newcomers would be more apt to purchasing an N800 if they knew where it was going or what special plans were coming up around the bend.

Most geeks see something new and shiny and jump ship to purchase the "next best thing", but just think if we knew that our precious N800 can reinvent itself to become whatever the next big thing is. We would be more likely to stick around for a while and not say "ooh shiny" and jump ship.

Us N800 owners have already taken the plunge and purchased, so just continue to make us happy and let us know of the glorious things to come. The people who are on the fence about purchasing would probably purchase sooner and ride out the development cycles if they knew what this device can do right now, and what it will be capable of doing in the future.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: iPod touch - not bad
 

oops, heh, heh

guess people didn't post it in "Competitors", where i thought it belonged

Re: It's over
 

For one, I think it's too early to say what the quality of the Touch will be like. People bashed Nokia for not making RAZRs-- the RAZR has horrible hinge failure rates and ended up actually doing damage to Moto's bottom line (not for that reason though). People bashed Nokia for bad screens on the tablets-- now the iPhone is exhibiting the same problems. So what is to say that the iPod Touch will not have any defects?

For another, I'm still not convinced that anything has really "gone wrong" for Nokia. Granted, there remain disconnects between what some users demand and what the company supports, but even without anyone proving it to me directly I believe that continued tablet development demonstrates the 770 and N800 were "successful enough". Perfect? By no means! But the computerish attributes of the device have the potential of solving the vast majority of current gripes. The main thing that went wrong was in reverse logistics, and that is improving.

Finally, reviews were actually mixed for the N800. Many professional reviews (such as CNET's) were in fact lambasted by users, who ranked it higher. The majority of overall negative reviews I have seen were written by people who were apparently clueless as to the device's nature and potential. Of course, Nokia must take a large amount of blame there for awkward communications (at best).

What Apple out-executes on is HYPE. They have captured only a small segment of the vast consumer electronics market but carry on as if only they exist. Their loud and loyal fans echo the message. But Sony, Nintendo, Dell, HP and Microsoft might quibble a bit with the over-glorified image of Apple. And while the iPod was certainly a success (now losing share to competitors such as Sandisk), it remains to be seen what the future will bring for Apple. And Nokia as well. I think any predictions of the death of the largest cell phone manufacturer on the planet are a little exaggerated (yeah, yeah, hyperbolic :p).

Just wait. ;)

Re: It's over
 

I knew there were limitations with the 770 when I bought one, but it's even worse that I thought. I can't say I'm all that disappointed though.

Sitting here today with $350-$400 in my hand having experienced what Nokia can do and experienced what Apple can do, would I buy an N800?

For what I want (casual Internet browsing), heck no!

I'd buy the iPhone, hack it to use without the mobile part and wait for the software sim unlock. $349 from Apple for a "refurb", $399 new.

Re: It's over
 

Launch day, and everyone is predicting NIT's untimely death. Can you pull up an xterm on a itouch, iphone or whatever isteve jobs unveils with his cult of mac? I bought a tmobile wing because I didn't want the shortcomings of the iphone (namely no third party apps). Same reason I bought an N800 - The hacker spirit. The Why? Because I can! .. and - can I play doom on it?? Same reason I installed slackware wayy back... Go play in your sandbox - the iphone and all the ieverythings are very nice for that. As for me I choose the command line... </end rant>

Re: It's over
 

Texrat, I totally agree the Touch is so far unproven (it was only announced 5 hours ago!) but chances are people will love it - the overwhelming reaction to the iPhone 2+ months hasn't shown up any major UI issues, and the Touch is really just an iPhone without the phone! :)

Dodgey screens and other hardware issues are possible, but I'd expect Apple to have learned something from the iPhone (just as Nokia learned the WSOD from the 770) and one would expect them to have corrected the screen problem (which in reality is minor in relation to how many iPhones were sold)...

I'm already seeing people on other forums plunking down $400 (or the UK equivalent) on 16GB Touch pre-orders... this is the kind of reaction that Apple generates without really trying, ordinary Joes salivating over a piece of tech - while it may be hype Apple are able to convert the hype into real, genuine sales. This is horribly frustrating, as I see the N800 as being a platform that outperforms the Touch however the packaging and marketing of the Touch beats Nokia hands down. People wonder why they need a N800 - they just don't "get it" - yet these same people put down $400 for a Touch without thinking twice. Yes, it's all about the marketing but the sugar coated Apple marketing is based on the devices and what they can do - the devices LOOK great (better than the N800) and the UI looks even better, this makes marketing EASY! People are drooling over the Jobs demo, nobody gives a toss when OPK "demos" a new device - he's boring and dull and singularly not well placed to build interest in a product (though I'm sure he's a thoroughly nice bloke!)

It's true that Apple only have a small percentage of the overall CE market, but if you narrow your focus to MP3 players you'll see that Apple own that market (ignoring Nokia and their phones). Apple are by far the largest player (at one point with 82%+ market share, not sure what it is today) - any MP3 is compared to the iPod and usually comes up short (some of the latest iRiver units do well though).

Small market share or not, the Apple Touch will outsell in a single day all Nokia Tablets (770+N800) ever sold. Apple won't kill Nokia, but the Touch will eat into N800 sales for sure.

Re: It's over
 

I'm not suggesting the Touch will kill the NIT, but what it will do it steal NIT sales... most people don't care for xterm on their media player, they just want a media player and a bit of web browsing on the side would be nice. Or maybe they want to browse the web, and listening to some audio would be nice. For many many people this is the common task for portable devices.

Few people want to hack a shell onto their device but fortunately for them there is the N800. For the rest, there is the Touch. The risk is that those people wanting to hack a shell may not prove sufficiently profitable or worth the effort for Nokia to continue in this market. I hope it is, but Nokia face an uphill struggle to grow beyond the geek market and compete with the Touch which is the most obvious competitor.

Re: It's over
 

Milhouse, you nailed it.

Re: iPod touch - not bad
 

or with a meaningful title

Re: It's over
 

Over 110m iPods sold to date according to Jobs in his speech today. Small in comparison to the overall CE market, but a very respectable number of high-margin audio devices sold by a company that used to flog computers! :)

Let's see what the company that currently flogs mobile phones can do in return - no more hints and secrets, time to reveal some tasty upcoming morsels! :D

Re: It's over
 

I highly doubt the Touch will steal any significant NIT sales. It is a media device. A clever one, a technologically advanced one, but a music (oh and video) player nonetheless. We are talking almost totally separate markets, I don't care how many similarities there are-- the differences are too profound. I cannot emphasize that enough. The differences are the critical aspects of each device, the ones that drive them into separate markets and distinct uses.

The N800 death knell prognostications are exaggerated, misguided, and reactionary. They are based on more speculation than fact, and the facts involved are propped with little or no regard for critical context.

The Touch will undoubtedly sell more devices. But it targets a different demographic for the most part, and will pull at most perhaps 3% of those who might have gone for an N800. I'll stake my career on that. Just wait and see. The current iPod Touch bandwagon jumping is, begging everyone's pardon, not much different than the buzz around the N800 at launch. Remember that? ;)

Milhouse, you missed my point. I was referring to electronics devices at large. That also includes computers, of which despite the trumpeting of Apple fans, Apple holds a very tiny slice. Oh, and it includes phones too-- especially multimedia ones.

EDIT: okay, maybe you didn't miss the point but just wanted to keep the argument going. :p

Re: It's over
 

Look at our post count... first to 2000 buys the beers. :)

Different demographics for sure, but very similar functionality (at least, the N800 overlaps the Touch 100%). One will sell by the articulated lorry load to simpletons, the other won't (think: Smart car trunk loads). :)

What annoys me the most about the Touch is that in a different parallel universe, the N800 could have been the Touch and a runaway success for Nokia. I still love my N800 though, and I won't be getting a Touch because it doesn't have Bluetooth (and that's the only reason I won't be getting one).

I still think it would be more sensible for Nokia to leak some of their future plans to keep the scene bubbling than to keep quiet and blow our minds in 6 months time...

Re: It's over
 

Again: the differences, regardless of how few, are paramount.

All the arguing in the world won't alter that, Mil. But I do agree Nokia can do much, MUCH better in communications. However... did you not see the fruits of my labors there? Did Quim Gil come here or not? Is that not a start? ;)

And... Guiness? :D

Re: It's over
 

Just curious, how much is there to steal?

BTW, I actually saw an N800 in a store yesterday on the end of the mobile phone shelf at a major electronic retailer in Berlin. I can't imagine they'd ever sell one of them at that store. Everybody was looking at all the mobile phones / smart phones. Who's going to pick up this giant Nokia and look at it? I can hear it now, "What? I can't make a call?"

Regardless of Apple's size (almost as much annual profit as Nokia and at least triple Sony's), I think it's fair to say the N800 won't steal any significant sales from the iPod Touch. People will go to the store looking for the iPod touch, not the other way around.

Edit: Actually I just got your point. Those looking for the features of the N800 will buy it and not the iPod touch. That goes back to my first question.

Re: It's over
 

I've acknowledged that the N800's market is not as large as the iPod Touch's. At least for the foreseeable future. ;) And as amazed as you may be by this, the N800s DO sell-- look at the growing number of members here for a decent idea (of course that includes 770 owners and some overlap). Even if I knew the numbers, though, I am forbidden to reveal them, sorry. Suffice to say, bottom line, the NITs have been (as I said) successful enough. That is, enough to support future development (just you guys wait).

Your last comment goes both ways. Anyone wanting a true palmtop computer is not going to purchase the iPod Touch. It's a media player. The N800 is more.

Re: It's over
 

Yes yes, it's improving but like you I'd like to see more buzz about NITs than there is - to grow the community, to make them more successful than they so far have been, to show that the N800 can appeal to Joe Public as much as the Touch will/does. Bringing Quim here is great but we already own N800s so that by itself isn't going to help sales - Nokia need to reach out to prospective owners and convince them they need the N800 (however most are now convinced they probably need the iPod Touch!). If that means hyping the product with promises of so far unreleased software then so be it...

Eugh... Stella Artois for me :)

Re: It's over
 

No one here is more frustrated by our inability to pump up the N800 buzz than I am. By a LONG shot.

Re: It's over
 

Apart from me (I need to make up 4 posts... wtf!)

Re: It's over
 

Hey Texrat. Can you channel some of that influence into the design department? Nokia needs to lose the dopey shapes and crappy silver plastic they like to overuse. Blaaah. My 770 is OK - buttons are not comfy, but I find the N800 fugly. (Sorry, just providing input in case the Nokia muckety mucks like to read forums)

Re: It's over
 

dlhuss - vote and/or comment here!

Re: It's over
 

you have to think the n800 is Nokia's "test" model....it's perfect for ironing out and de-bugging their ideas/tests....i would think they're gonna answer with something....my guess is within the next 2 months....they're gonna need it ready for the Christmas season...assuming their plan is to face off with the Touch..
....maybe they don't care...but that would mean they eliminate the non-geek market if they choose not to compete...of course that's the lion's share...to me, the N800 feels like the jazz music market in relation to the music market as a whole...very small dedicated niche...an elite group...

Re: iPod touch - not bad
 

I'll ask Reggie to change it something more appropriate.

(Nearly there...)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Threads merged.

Re: It's over
 

Hey! They even had "Fugly" as an option and I'm the only "Fugly" vote.

What the heck?

You people really don't mind the N800 looks? Wow.

Hmmm. I mean, silver around a screen is definitely distracting, don't you think? It needs to be black.

That's the least of what's wrong with the design - the shape is all wrong and the materials, naaa.

OK, sorry, off topic.

Re: It's over
 

I thought the 770 was the test model! Maybe they're following the same pattern as Microsoft, version 3 will be awesome!

My hope is that now Intel are getting involved with Maemo, and Hildon has been spun out to be a full community project (with input from Intel) things should improve far more rapidly than in the past. However, dropping a few hints would be nice, like for instance if this UI is possible or likely to appear on NITs in a future update (I'm guessing it's possible but that's all it is - a guess).

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Thanks Reggie! :)

Re: It's over
 

I too was a little surprised by the Poll results... pretty much everyone thinks it's either good looking or OK. Personally I think the N800 hit every branch on the ugly tree when it's compared with an iPhone/iPod Touch, but if you had asked me the same question in January 2007 I'd have said it was OK (but still not great). Basically, it's not aging well in my (and seemingly your eyes) but then we're in the minority! :)

Yay... beers are on the Texan rodent. Stellas all round. :D

Re: It's over
 

Some of us truly appreciate the retro industrial design of the N800. And the faceplate is metal (although you might be referring to the 770). And if you don't like the looks of the N800... well... turn a blind eye to successors... :p

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I made my prediction about the new UI the other day on this forum. I think it's inevitable that the Hildon UI shown on the Ubuntu Mobile wiki will end up on the n800, especially since "Nokia Engineers" are contributing to the project.

Re: It's over
 

It looks better when I'm drunk. :D

Seriously, I hope the successor is more consumer friendly and better looking (ie. "sexy"). Apple have got CE design licked, so copy it. Nokia have said they'll copy if it's the right thing to do - trust me, in terms of CE device design, copying someone else is definately the right thing for Nokia to do!

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Eh, design preference is sooo subjective-- the poll showed that. Or maybe it simply proved what tasteless barbarians some of you are. :p

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

You might be right, but since it was formerly a Nokia project it could be they're still involved in the overall Ubuntu/community project but not necessarily the new UI. After all, Nokia believe only companies can implement a well designed UI as it's beyond the abilities of a community run project. Sigh (can anyone say "arrogant"?)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

We're geeks - hardly the ideal candidates to give opinion on design! We're more interested in what's underneath...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Milhouse, Milhouse, Milhouse... sigh.

Normally I'd agree with you regarding arrogance (trust me), but that suuure looks like a challenge to me...

Re: It's over
 

I was thinking silver plastic of my and my girlfriend's Nokia mobile phones and how the slider mechanism of hers feels terrible compared to a Samsung D900. I have to admit the N800 was in my head too.

The retro style reminds me of the old beige speakerphones from the 60's.