Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I agree with 'soon' but the boot time? Hand on the heart, how long does Sailfish take to boot? Or Maemo? As long as you do not need to reboot other than for an OS update, I don't see a problem.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

boot time from one of my n800's from sd card is SIGNIFICANTLY less than a minute...(never bothered before ...but I am curious ..so I will reboot it when I get home and see how long it takes...)
AND...
I have left 'em plugged in.... and running.... for MONTHS solid ...before rebooting ....and NOT because I had to reboot either!....
and that is 10 yr old tech.
So...if modern devices and os's are having trouble and needing reboots...and they have boot up times that are long...
There is a DEFINITE problem...

and the solution is...

everyone should have an n8x0 !

:p
:D

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I made an experiment. Switched off my N900 and my Jolla and made some measurements. All are accurate to +/-2 seconds, due to using a regular wrist watch and having to constantly flip between looking at the watch and the phone screen.

First, the N900:
12 seconds of white screen with the Nokia logo, then darkness
35 seconds to the wallpaper first appearing
55 seconds to first desktop icons appearing
1 minute for the desktop fully populated
1 minute 5 seconds for tapping on the File Manager icon having any effect
1 minute 17 seconds for File Manager actually showing any mounted volumes

Now the Jolla:
15 seconds of Jolla logo, then darkness
35 seconds to the first sign of any life (spinner)
50 seconds to the home screen
To Jolla's credit, I could use the phone from that point on.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

'nuff said.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

If I could only convey properly giggles, snickers and guffaws in text...
ooooh!
I can't wait to get home now ...
reboot my Precambrian n800 ...
and time it!

If it does better than the n900 that is pretty frickin' bad...
If it does better than the Jolla I would call that grim....
If it has a time no better or worse than either....I wouldn't call that a success either...

tech 5 to 10 years in advance and their corresponding specs had better beat my antiquated jalopy ....

or many people better start throwing out a lot of ideas on the progression of technologies...

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I've always found uptime to be useful for my servers, mainly because they actually do things that require it. But to have a featureless, unsupported and overall useless communication device that cannot surf any modern websites or communicate using more popular platforms with actual people that use those popular platforms is the key difference.

Simply stated, and I really do not want a semantic battle over what comes next - I want a communication device that can interface what my needs are today and not what they were in 2008. I want a device that actually has little to no noticeable lag in the times I really find it frustrating and can do what I need. Uptime is at the lowest of the things that I'm looking for to be honest - stability is great, but if it cannot interface a damn thing, uptime just means that I'm in possession of a device that does nothing but give me bragging rights.

tl;dr **** uptime. Give me functions.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

@gerbick, I agree that on its own @juiceme's post is about as good as a p155 in the wind. But was your moan about the boot time any better? Both are pretty much irrelevant. Both about equally so.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

To be blunt, I honestly don't care* what you really think is relevant; especially when a niche group is all about esoteric things that matter mostly only to them. I do however find that we tend to like similar things on this forum yet factor in minor things that rarely matter outside of this forum.

Boot time is relevant to me because these mobile OS's are unoptimized and getting bulkier per day. Where's the devices that boot or at least wake up quickly? Perhaps you can live with something that boots (or wake) in the time of microwave popcorn but I don't have that patience left in me.

I get it; you don't consider what I pointed out as important. That's actually quite fine. But as free as you lot are to bring out what's important to you; I can do the same.

*Not meant as disrespect

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Yes, I have to admit that my collectiong uptime on my N9 is more or less a vanity action. "just be cause I can".

However I disagree with you on the latter points. I see no merit in the waste you call "modern websites" and nice enough I don't have to use those. (what are they anyway, have not came across any really??)
I can surf the sites I need pretty well, for example TMO works okay.

And what are those communication platforms you so desire; I can use voicecall, email, sms, irc... In fact I have never needed anything else.
(not exactly true; we had a passing fad in the company where we used slack but it was abandoned after a while for the basic and reliable ones, email and irc...)

As for connections; in my country both 3G and 4G are pretty ubiquous and for that reason so many people have migrated over to 4G that it happens so that currently 3G is very uncognested and provides speedy and reliable connection.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I have found that booting my devices is really unnecessary. For example SFOS is something you practically never need to boot; if something goes awry you just need to restart lipstick and that solves just about all problems I ever have had.
And lipstick restart takes just 4 seconds, what device can you match that with?


No disrespect taken! In fact you are one of the bunch here that I hold in the highest respect due to your ability to present your points well and take others viewpoints into consideration!

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

We differ. Why should I agree to limited functionality due to the restrained uses that you find okay yet I'd find far too restrictive? If it's on the Internet, I should be able to get to it without issue - Adobe Flash content withstanding. Yet, "Oh, I don't use <modern social media for instance>, I use <insert open source option instead> only" is what drives half of this **** proposed on this site.

I cannot view heavy CSS3/HTML5 or animated sites.

And I require more. Slack (for business), Hangouts (also for business and I need multiple user conversations enabled, Hangish does this on Sailfish), and JIRA/Trello (also for business) for instance. I could list out more, but I'm moving one organization away from Yammer and Skype for Business into Slack to avoid being in Microsoft's lap.

Our needs differ. Why should you dictate what I have access to when your needs are far more limited/different than my own? That's the issue. There's nothing "open" about these kinds of talk.

I hear "Well it works for me" far too often when honestly, a lot of you people would be happy with Lynx, VI and a terminal. If that was only option that could be supported, I don't want it.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Things matter if you need to use them. Whether there is water on Mars or not is of interest to me but it does not really matter as I will never need it. The boot time (or uptime, for that matter) fall into the same category.

FWIW, I have just measured the boot time of my daughter's Android tablet, just out of interest. 50 seconds.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Funnily, any phone for sale today (or at least 95% ?) fills theses needs, yet you don't want them (it seems), and explain to the population there - that for some don't need thoses fonctions - that they shouldn't dictate you to a device that can't do thoses functions :D

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Nothing really funny about it. My phones since the N900 has fully supported all of my needs in regards to my work; however it does not satisfy my want to step away from Android or iOS.

In the US, Sailfish OS isn't exactly a proper option if you want more than 2G in most of the locales. I'm still waiting for an official release.

I now have an iPhone (company mandated and purchased) that actually does what I want, have stated and then some. But man, I absolutely hate the loss of freedom. And jailbreaking is not an option.

Yet, I'm here, been here for almost 10 years because I came for Maemo, I came for an optimized pocketable linux device, found and purchased the 770, N800, N810, N900 and N9.

And I'd love for the community to get a device that satisfies our needs as well as a good portion of our wants. I do not want to lose my freedom nor do I want to be limited by extremely myopic views on what other people should receive by people with extremely limited views on what a device should do.

So... not sure what's funny when that's been my entire statement all along. I think of not only myself - I handle that - but don't want to dispatch what others may want unless it's far too restricting.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

"Funnily" may have been lost in translation (not a native speaker here), and not to be taken exactly as "funny".

I'm just playing devil's advocate there, trying to point out that everybody has needs/wants that a lot of device can fit, yet cannot find one that fits all : availability, support, OS of choice, freedom, open source, up to date software from big cloud companies, performance, camera, keyboard, screen size...

Main problems with the services you and other (me included obviously) need, is that we depends on the service provider to dictate us the platform they support...
Like how a web designer dictates us which browser we need to use to show their website by their selection of technologies (ActiveX, Silverlight, Flash, CCS/HTML...).
And that's not something where niche platforms like ours have a lot to say (except using standards protocols).

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I do appreciate the clarification and you are right. I did take it wrongly, but not as a negative thing.

Yep. But in the end, the lowest common denominator here at least is that we do not want it to be locked into Google's or Apple's ecosystem. Or Microsoft's for that matter.

You're 100% correct here.

Here's the issue though. We actually agree more than not; however the limiting factor is that with all of this skill and concern about security yet no solution has come forth that's greater than a terminal app to discuss these things?

Something HUGE is amiss here. But we agree - platform providers dictate to us all too often and shorten the lifespan of our already artificially obsolete hardware.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

This is the source of a lot of anguish,
but some of us have developed a habit of examining whether or not
that shiny new 'provided' is actually just another mousetrap.

It seems too often that new latest and greatest arena
has gates that are remarkably one-way portals.
And provisions that require signing up usually signal
they intend to extract something later on.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

*cough* mumble mumble Jolla Harbour momble mumble ... ;)

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

So you dont care for test or benchmark times.
Nobody needs fast evolution cycles and developer time is for free :o

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I did not say I don't care. I said it does not matter. What I care about or not is subjective. What matters is objective.

Unless I am directly affected by them, test times do not matter to me. Developers use them, so they matter to them. I of course become a developer myself from time to time and with my developer hat on, things start being important to me that aren't to me as a user. Such as a clearly written code or the existence of debug and test tools.

That is no different than the uptime of gerbick's servers versus of his pocket toys. What matters is context sensitive.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Even if not locked into an ecosystem, we're still locked in what the app providers support. That includes a lot more companies that do apps, like for :
* games
* trains
* banks
* messaging (Whatsapp-like)
* ...
(For banks, trains and a lot others, mobile websites usually do a great job, and lower this requirement, if web browsing is correctly supported on the chosen platform)

I agree on this common denominator though.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Hi there,

I think this is part of the reason why Neo900 and others got lost. too many conflicting requirements.

I bought my Nokia N900 in 2009 because I loved what it could do, the way it did it and the form factor it was presented in. The wow factor was a bonus. Especially when compared to iphone 3 and later 4.

But I was locked in to Nokia's systems, plus the various apps skype, dropbox, etc,etc.

At the time there was an amazing array of app's being created, many of the wow in themselves.

I then followed a route N9 (x2), back the N900, Jolla, back to N900 and now Galaxy S7. Finally the S7 has enough cool features that it has some wow.

The N900 was retired from main phone duty because most of the app's no longer work due to API's being updated and the browser, once the phones killer feature compared to apple, no longer works well with many sites.

If we demand a closed phone system then there is no incentive for any companies to invest in it, so it will be a niche. If it is a niche, no developers will develop apps for it.

This was the folly (or deliberate destruction) of Nokia. If the N9 supported Maemo rather than Meego then the app community would have had a bigger market, instead they had 2 smaller markets. Jolla tried again with new OS demanding new apps, but tried to offset this with Android support. A cunning move, but annoyingly Android apps on Sailfish are hit and miss if they work, can be installed, or have access to GPS, etc,etc.

I backed Neo900 when it was billed as a Maemo replacement for N900. I withdrew my backing after the Golden Delicious fiasco, and by which time the Jolla I backed was coming.

I fear that the problem will remain, the same as what killed off Nokia in the first place. Without develop support for new apps and constant revision of old favourites anything with unique OS will be a niche product.

If I want to run Linux and do some hacking on an IOT device, my N900 is still the tool of choice, it is still perfectly able to function in that role. However I need so much more from the device than that for it to be my main phone.

What do I want? I would love to see modern hardware version of N900 with oLED display. But I would also love to see developers flooding back to maemo OS to support the device. One without the other for me would be the same as the ZX Spectrum emulator I run on my N900. Simply a trip down memory lane.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Bingo!

One of the reasons Android is so successful is that it is the same Android everywhere. Motorola, Sony, Samsung, Alcatel - they all may use different launchers but underneath it is the same OS. From the developers' point of view this is perfect since they have to build the application only once to reach all Android devices in the world. The user benefits.

Enter the wonderful world of Linux with mutually incompatible distros. Is anyone surprised that developers and users do not flock to Linux in their millions?

N900 tried to make this a bit less painful by maintaining the compatibility at least at the source code level. I could take a 5 years old source for a desktop Linux application, type make and voila, it worked on the N900. Not always very well due to the menu style etc but it worked. The N9 broke this compatibility and then Jolla broke it again. One would think that N9 applications would work seamlessly on Sailfish but no, Jolla in their infinite wisdom had to reinvent the wheel again.

Sorry about that little rant. I could not help it :(

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Honestly I don't think Linux fragmentation is too bad. At this point it is more or less Red hat based vs Debian/Ubuntu distributions, almost everything is based on one of those bases. To solve this Redhat should acquire Canonical and essentially kill Ubuntu. MIR needs to die already. Ubuntu should just exist as a desktop environment as that is the only value it provides. Ubuntu Touch should just be a user Interface for Tizen. Sailfish should also be an interface for Tizen.
The Suse operating system should be acquired from who ever owns it by Redhat.
Accepting the superiority of Redhat and by extension Fedora is the solution to our problems! It would eliminate Desktop and Mobile fragmentation.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

But that'd in effect mean that RPM would dominate over DEB, right?
What about all the people who like the admittedly superior debian packeting format, hmm?
Of course to solve that RedHat could change over to using DEBs

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

> admittedly superior debian packeting format
Did they already implemented some analog of admittedly superior delta-rpm updates format?

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Ok, so summarised: No new infos on what the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017 is. A Pity, really.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Not really reinventing the wheel, just using up to date technology which happens to be somewhat incompatible with the old one. I say somewhat because it's only on a phone that it becomes more trouble than it's worth. On a desktop it doesn't really matter as you can run anything with minimal effort and there is enough horsepower for any compatibility layers. The only exception is the one railroadmaster pointed at, which is Canonical (the developer of Ubuntu) reimagining perfectly round wheels as cubes all the time. If they invested their money in helping others fix the real problems with new software, which is sometimes incompatible because it's impossible not to be, I think we would be several years ahead of where we are now. They have lots of money, but choose to spend it on making knockoffs of popular software, with "© Canonical" in the credits. I wouldn't be surprised if one day they forked the Linux kernel so they could call it the Canonikernel.

The biggest difference between distributions is the software they include by default. New microdistributions pop up all the time because there are always some lunatics who think they need to "provide a choice for the people" by making a distribution that does exactly one thing different to the parent distribution just because after an argument on a mailing list the parent distribution (or developers of a particular piece of software) ended up not changing a certain feature, and so the people will be freed from the oppressive chains of the parent distribution. In reality, they waste a whole lot of time trying to keep up with the upstream development, all the while making sure their particular preferred feature still works and evangelising on mailing lists and forums about their heroic efforts to save x from certain doom, only eventually noticing no one really cares about those efforts. But then two more heroes of the people will have risen up to repeat the cycle.

This is not to say people can't disagree, but it would help a lot if those disagreements didn't have a guaranteed end result of split efforts.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Really well written piece with wonderful points that I just have to agree with, thanks!

However; personally I have to confess I don't consider splintering, forking, or wild goose hunts waste at all. As long as everything is kept open nothing people make is ever lost but stays in recach as a resource to be tapped into if needed; it is a richness that just cannot be had in corporate-governance commercial closed source world.

It is pure silliness to think we would fare better if all swdevs started to pull in the same direction, to do that would be to lose the passion that drives you forward!

All hail to chaos and wildflowers! :cool:

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

And therein lies the problem. As long as the main killer of OSS will remain to be seen by the juicemes of this world as a good thing, OSS will never prevail.

OSSers of the world, unite! :D

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Fragmentation isn't a problem? Ok.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

No, fragmentation is an imaginary problem. It is called choice and it is not a problem, it is a solution.
I stand by what I said, t is a richness to be tapped. The minor problem of fragmented user base is a lesser evil that can be tolerated for the greater good.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

RPM is the superior format. Deb should die out already. Redhat Supremacy!
Also everything is moving to Snap or Flatpaks, distributions should include both.

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

pouring some oil:
why not switch to MSI as the one and only 'package' format (works for some kind of OS pretty well.;))

--
not really serious

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

In the fire or on troubled water? ;)

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

I spent the past two hours thinking why does that sound familiar. And then it hit me. The BBC was interviewing some big shot from the new US establishment earlier this week. The name is not important. When asked about the 11,000 gun-related crimes last year, he argued strongly that, "Guns are an imaginary problem. It is called freedom and it is not a problem, it is a solution."

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

Guns don't kill people. It's just a piece of metal or composite with moving parts. Period.

Someone has to put a bullet inside and pull the trigger.

Guns allow people to do he things they can do with hands, sticks, knifes on a longer distance and a bigger scale. That is the difference. But as with sticks, stones and knifes they are just objects lying here or there. Without the interaction of a human they are harmless.

Object aren't problems. The operator CAN be a problem.

Banning legal guns doesn't solve killing as the bad guys in general don't use legal guns. The good guys will be left with sticks and stones whereas the bad guys will still import their "thunder sticks".

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

only if you have infinite amount of people who work on that so that you can replace those who split with new ones that will continue with the pace of development on original...something. And since this is never the case, endless forking is wasted effort. For having, usually, just some minor difference which is often irrelevant to the end user.
And endless choice of more or less the same app/OS/TV/phone/whatever is not a choice at all, it is confusion with product compromised one way or the other at the end.
Whic someone will fork just because one thinks that he knows better. :rolleyes:

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

FYI guys from the Replicant project (opensource Android implementation) just released a version with the basic GTA04 support (motherboard used in neo900).

Re: What's the best Handheld gnu/linux machine for 2017?
 

In 99% of cases, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Solutionism at its finest!