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-   -   Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX) (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=99022)

rcolistete 2017-03-03 01:59

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Gemini PDA FAQ :
Quote:

What keyboard layouts does the keyboard support?
The keyboard layouts that we plan to support as part of the crowd fund are: English (UK/US), French, German, Spanish, Italian, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Finnish, Japanese, Chinese and Dvorak. For any other languages, please contact us.

What Linux distribution will Gemini run?
We are currently talking to a few companies representing different Linux flavours and we are considering a number of options but the decision has not been taken yet. We are also taking into accounts comments from the backers into consideration, including Sailfish & Ubuntu OS, which have been suggested several times.
Nice to see Planet Computers is listening backers and communities about keyboards and Linux distributions.

pichlo 2017-03-03 07:04

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Wow!
Quote:

Thank you for your comment. We met with Sailfish at MWC. Watch this space.
They not only met with Jolla, they have already been assimilated!

Jedibeeftrix 2017-03-03 08:34

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
one of those sets of questions was mine. ;)

ravelo 2017-03-04 08:24

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
A commentary was posted right now at the indiegogo page that is very important imho. The answers are very important i think, please be careful about this project.

"I am very exited about this product, but my excitement is tempered by two things:
- Your CEO is affiliated with another Indiegogo project, the ZX Spectrum Vega Plus project, which has not been delivered to date, what is his role in that project? And
- You do not seem to have a working prototype and are being vague about Linux support. As I understand it, Linux support for the processor chosen is non-existent or very bad."

Macros 2017-03-04 10:40

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
I just looked at the ZX Spectrum Vega Plus project, they planned delivery in September 16. As we all know, building custom hardware with a small team is very difficult, so they may be honest.
Their backers are very hostile, they would not motivate me to work faster.

Starting another campaign in this state does not increase my trust in them. They may plan to use the funds to finish the ZX Spectrum Vega and the revenue from that to fund the Gemini.

I would suggest waiting. The project is funded, so they will start and in the worst case one will get the device one or two months later then the backers.

meego_leenooks1 2017-03-04 12:21

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ravelo (Post 1524715)
A commentary was posted right now at the indiegogo page that is very important imho. The answers are very important i think, please be careful about this project.

"I am very exited about this product, but my excitement is tempered by two things:
- Your CEO is affiliated with another Indiegogo project, the ZX Spectrum Vega Plus project, which has not been delivered to date, what is his role in that project? And
- You do not seem to have a working prototype and are being vague about Linux support. As I understand it, Linux support for the processor chosen is non-existent or very bad."

Yea I've noticed how GPD Laptop developers keep answering like "sorry we won't implement this because we are afraid of delaying the release" on questions about GSM module / camera / keyboard backlight / et cetera, especially concerning the certifications required to add the GSM module, and how Gemini PDA developers keep answering like "yes of course we will implement this" on almost every question, implying they will get all required certifications in time.
Also worth mentioning that the first team has some experience and released several devices already, and the second team has no experience nor working prototypes yet.
Anyway I've backed the Gemini PDA and hope for the best.

Koiruus 2017-03-05 11:16

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Marshall Banana (Post 1524355)
Can somebody enlighten me what's the point of this design?
One low power co-proccessor for standby-stuff i could understand, but what's this good for:
2x Cortex A72 @2.5GHz
4x Cortex A53 @2.0GHz
4x Cortex A53 @1.55GHz

If i run a webserver on my pocket-computer or do heterogenous supercomputing?

Or is it for power management?

This confuses and interests me also. This goes a little bit offtopic, but I have been wondering nowadays' Android phones with 8-core processors etc.

I have no knowledge at processors/threads/strings/whatever, but I do remember when AMD published the first 6-cores for gaming. It was said that only some few programs really know what to do with those six cores. And I remember some performance tests where AMD 4-core processors performed better than otherwise identical 6-cores.

Many things may have changed from those times, but every time I read about a device having 8-core processor or even multiple processors, I start wondering. So the question is: Can an Android device really put all those processors and cores to good use? I guess it also depends on what you do with that device. For example do you get the benefits of multiple cores only when multitasking or heavy gaming, or does it also give energy savings and longer usage time?

kinggo 2017-03-05 14:03

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Marketing...
It's hard to sell core type/performance when average user have zero idea what is that but even that uneducated user knows that 10 is bigger than 8 and that 12 is bigger than 10 and that 2.5GHz is more than 2.3Ghz.
While A53, A72, A...... that sound like type of vitamins to them.

pichlo 2017-03-06 08:31

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Two thin shirts insulate better than one thick one. Likewise two slow CPUs might perform better than a single fast one ;)

handaxe 2017-03-06 11:38

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
For me, the question is whether the two OSs will be equals with respect to accessing the h-w devices: gps, camera etc.

rcolistete 2017-03-06 21:47

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Gemini: The Newest Thing In All Of Psion
By therefore founder, Martin Riddiford

So the battery is under the keyboard :
Quote:

the most favourable from a component layout and ease of manufacture point of view was to put a large, flat battery under the keyboard
There is also a (smaller) supercap(acitor) under the display.
Quote:

the removal of the battery from under the display has opened up space to use a supercap to assist the battery
Keys are compressed when Gemini PDA is closed :
Quote:

We hatched an audacious plan to squash the keys when the device was shut, saving 1.4mm in thickness. This is done with magnets on the corners which compress the keys and hold the lid and keyboard frame together.

pichlo 2017-03-07 08:16

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
I am struggling to parse this sentence:
Quote:

This is the type of challenge that I have tackled many times in my career whilst at therefore and before, while shoehorning electronics into ever smaller products.
I consulted a colleague who, unlike me, is not a Bloody Foreigner™, and he was scratching his head too ;)

meego_leenooks1 2017-03-07 09:31

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Refunded my order. This device has more cons than pros.

rcolistete 2017-03-07 21:57

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1524961)
I am struggling to parse this sentence:

I consulted a colleague who, unlike me, is not a Bloody Foreigner™, and he was scratching his head too ;)

"therefore" is the name of the designer company.

handaxe 2017-03-07 23:03

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rcolistete (Post 1525013)
"therefore" is the name of the designer company.

Ha ha! In some academic conventions it would be italicised, and indeed there is a point to doing that....

Often, confusion is the result of "too clever by half" names.

Macros 2017-03-10 12:48

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ravelo (Post 1524715)
A commentary was posted [...] at the indiegogo page [...]

"I am very exited about this product, but my excitement is tempered by two things:
- Your CEO is affiliated with another Indiegogo project, the ZX Spectrum Vega Plus project, which has not been delivered to date, what is his role in that project? [...]"

So this news article may be relevant:
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-39191064

Essentially they summarize the bad state of the project.
Long overdue, lack of communication.

They add their correspondence with the company, which did not go well:
Quote:

"Our clients are concerned that the BBC is in fact supporting and participating in a malicious campaign intended to denigrate our clients' reputation," wrote lawyers Michelmores LLP in a letter to the broadcaster.
Golem rephrased this into
"With threat of legal action the company tried to prevent press releases about the project"
Which is kinda over the top and wrong in my eyes. But they certainly haven't got a thick skin.

Anyway it seems they either are totally overwhelmed with the scale of the project or they decided to run with the money or they tried, didn't hit their deadline and after the response from their backers decided "Na they don't deserve it anyway" ;)

I suggest again to stay away from funding the Gemini if this connection is there and wait for a final product.

Jedibeeftrix 2017-03-17 14:07

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
new update:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/g...phone#/updates

seem firmly committed to mediatek, and in talks with canononical and jolla.
committed to a flashable device.

wicket 2017-03-17 14:57

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
This is just yet another ARM device built for Android and built with planned obsolescence. The screenshot shows it's running Linux 3.18 which is the kernel used in Android 6 and is now EOL. If you're lucky they'll move to Linux 4.4 from Android 7 which is scheduled to be EOL'd in less than a year.

Quote:

On the Linux side, we are actively discussing with several companies including Canonical (Ubuntu), Jolla (Sailfish OS), Mediatek and others on how we can achieve a truly open Linux environment.
This made me LOL, particularly the Mediatek part. That statement alone tells me they have little experience in this area. Ubuntu and Sailfish ports will likely use the Android kernel with libhybris like all of their other ports to mobile devices. You can forget a truly open Linux environment.

rcolistete 2017-04-08 19:00

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
New Gemini PDA updates on April 7th :
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/g...phone#/updates
- LCD screen changed, now 5.99” FHD, 18:9 ratio; 2160x1080, so it is larger than 5.7", but less resolution (like it because less power drain);
- about mobile OS :
Quote:

2) Operating systems

i) Android

The identified device manufacturer already has a Mediatek license and has committed to letting us alter the firmware so that we can properly support our keyboard, multiple languages and alphabets. They have also committed to supporting an optional application bar such as the one below the screen on the old Psion devices. This will be an option so that backers who do not want this, can disable it in the settings. The version of Android used on the device will be Android 7.

ii) Linux

We have taken on board all backer comments regarding the flavour options of Linux. There were many comments and essentially we understand the main requests for the platform to be as open as possible so that backers are free to install whatever Linux distribution they want.

We are definitely going in this direction and the plan is to develop as many Linux drivers for the device in the time available to support a variety of distros. The key device drivers that we will need are of course the screen, keyboard, memory management, battery management, WiFi and we have a commitment with our manufacturing partners’ design house to enable us to do this. This is great news as this was an unclear point when we launched the campaign.

iii) Sailfish

We have still not made a formal decision on Sailfish as OS. Partly because we narrowly missed meeting some key management of Jolla in Hong Kong due to conflicting schedules on both sides. We plan to meet Jolla soon for further discussions.

We hope this is an exciting update on the specifications of Gemini for you. From now on the sourcing department of our chosen Far Eastern design house will be identifying the final components for Gemini’s bill of materials.
12 hours left to close the Gemini PDA Indiegogo campaign funding.

rcolistete 2017-04-08 19:03

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
My opinion :
- Gemini PDA hardware will be released, with a great (made in UK) mechanical keyboard;
- Android 7 will work;
- Linux release is the great risk, as developing drivers is not cheap and fast, so I expect delays and not 100% ready Linux release (lacking some drivers).

rcolistete 2017-08-29 01:46

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Many updates (28/08/2017) on Gemini PDA/smartphone : Report from the China Factory Visit and General Update - Part #1, #2, #3, #4.
Wow !
Quote:

https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-medi...yt3g7mvqkt.png
Here is a current snapshot of Linux running on the development X25 device.
https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-medi...zlvkm3hpjp.png
The Linux in the image above is based on Debian 9.0 (Stretch). We will share more on plans for Linux on Gemini in the coming month, including support for other distributions, but we wanted to share the good news on getting some parts of Linux on the development device that was originally only Android. We also confirm that we managed to achieve dual boot – booting Android and Linux, We will be preparing our Web Site to support community efforts for Linux on Gemini.
Comments :
Quote:

...regarding USB-C connectivity - we already have it on Linux. So far, we have tested Ethernet, keyboard and mouse and they are already working directly connected to the development device or all together working over a USB-C hub. We are also in the process of testing the HDMI over USB-C

endsormeans 2017-08-29 07:14

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
welly well well.

handaxe 2017-08-29 11:20

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
This is very very tempting. Looks nice, has keyboard, will make calls. But will it do in Linux everything it can on Android? And how will the binary blobs be managed with respect to kernel upgrades?

Jedibeeftrix 2017-08-29 22:06

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
i love the hardware/format, just give me somehing other than android...

one_with_linux 2017-08-29 22:29

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
How about 3D acceleration on X11?

pichlo 2017-08-30 04:49

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by one_with_linux (Post 1533567)
How about 3D acceleration on X11?

That sounds like an excuse for not getting one. "Quick, think of some arcane feature that is unlikely to be supported. Oh, found one. Phewww!"

juiceme 2017-08-30 04:55

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1533579)
Quote:

Originally Posted by one_with_linux (Post 1533567)
How about 3D acceleration on X11?

That sounds like an excuse for not getting one. "Quick, think of some arcane feature that is unlikely to be supported. Oh, found one. Phewww!"

Tend to agree.

If 2D acceleration is missing that'd be a drag when dragging stuff on da screen but what's 3D acceleration anyway except the stuff measured by an acceleratiometer sensor?

pichlo 2017-08-30 05:33

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by juiceme (Post 1533580)
what's 3D acceleration anyway except the stuff measured by an acceleratiometer sensor?

It is a GPU feature to accelerate the rendering of 3D scenes on a 2D screen. I am not aware of any use case other than in some action games. I am not a gamer, can anyone who is tell us how many such games exist in Linux? And how important it is to be able to play them on a phone/PDA?

Jedibeeftrix 2017-08-30 08:14

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Thousands, on steam alone. But your point stands about the validity of the gaming argument on an arm based handheld device.

Presumably 3D acceleration is valuable for desktop compositors, but anyone advocating for that effort to put put into X rather than Wayland in late 207 can reasonably be considered a malicious saboteur of any ambitions for Linux on handheld...

pacman 2017-08-30 13:09

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1533586)
It is a GPU feature to accelerate the rendering of 3D scenes on a 2D screen. I am not aware of any use case other than in some action games. I am not a gamer, can anyone who is tell us how many such games exist in Linux? And how important it is to be able to play them on a phone/PDA?

Scientific computing applications sometimes benefit from technology developed to support games. One example that I am familiar with is the crystallographic structure visualisation package Coot:. Here are some screenshots:

http://www2.mrc-lmb.cam.ac.uk/person...b/screenshots/

This package definitely benefits from 3D rendering. Having said that, few people would try to do serious work with a package like this on a PDA-format machine :)

Zeta 2017-08-30 22:14

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pichlo (Post 1533586)
It is a GPU feature to accelerate the rendering of 3D scenes on a 2D screen. I am not aware of any use case other than in some action games.

Or any Qt application using QtQuick (so most touch enabled apps, like on SailfishOS). Some information can be found on their blog, for example : https://blog.qt.io/blog/2017/01/18/o...p-using-today/

The GPU is a very complex beast containing a lot of different subsystems, some dedicated to 2D, 3D, video decoding, etc... but as Qt expects OpenGL(ES), I understand that it is the 3D subsystem that is needed. (A new software renderer is now available, but is not related to the question, so I won't go further on it).

pichlo 2017-08-31 06:40

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Cool. I am learning something new every day.

Jedibeeftrix 2017-09-11 12:00

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Running Debian.
Upgraded to Helio X27.
Downgraded battery to 42mAH

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/0...otype_handson/

MikeHG 2017-09-11 18:47

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
It would be helpful to know if the battery is still supposed to be removable (that's a big thing for me...).

Hoping someone who can comment on the Indigogo page asks the question. If you're a backer, feel free to take that as a hint ;)

Edit: also, seems like a sketchy proposition charging 100 USD more for the sim version if all versions can run esims. Could that be a misunderstanding?

Jedibeeftrix 2017-09-12 09:39

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
I was wondering about the esim too,

$299 for the wifi version is still the early bird price, long gone for the cellular version.

Update - Dave potter has joined as honorary chairman.

MikeHG 2017-09-12 22:44

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Sep 12, 2017 • 3:01PM update:

Quote:

Our aspiration was for the Gemini to have an 8000 mAh battery.

We could not fit the 8000 mAh battery in the dimensions we set for the device, as one of our backers noticed early on in the campaign.
Keeping the aspiration of 8000 mAh we tried to find the largest off the shelf removable battery that would fit the device. We were finding batteries with capacity of around 3000 mAh and this was not satisfactory.

We proceeded to look at other solution making the battery replaceable, but not removable in the sense of not requiring any device maintenance.

In the end we decided to create our own custom battery that can fit the space.

The battery is not removable, but is replaceable. Having a removable battery would make the device thicker and we did not want that either. The battery can be replaced, as it plugs in neatly into the side PCB. Replacement batteries will be available.

The battery size has been measured at 4220 mAh and we are yet to do the final longevity tests (talk time and standby time)

Even at 4220 mAh, the Gemini regular battery is still one of the largest batteries on a mobile phone device.

We are still keen to cater for an even larger battery and we are considering to introduce an large battery add-on that would come with a thicker base cover to cater for the larger battery volume, making the dimensions of the device much thicker.


explit 2017-09-13 12:13

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedibeeftrix (Post 1534196)
Running Debian.
Upgraded to Helio X27.
Downgraded battery to 42mAH

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/0...otype_handson/


For this prototype they have reused the Psion Series 5/5mx Keyboard. Its visible very clear on the Fn-Key. But they also modified some keys and printed new icons on it...
cool

gerbick 2017-09-13 14:32

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
That is one helluva battery downgrade. Yikes.

handaxe 2017-09-14 20:43

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1534330)
That is one helluva battery downgrade. Yikes.

In absolute terms, you are right - but in the end, what matters is how many hours of average intensity use is given by the installed battery. It needs to be 8 hours minimum IMO, ideally 12. Or what?

HA

epninety 2017-09-14 21:41

Re: Gemini PDA (the return of the Psion Series 5MX)
 
For me, I think the number of hours it can remain in 'instant on' standby would be a more useful figure of merit. I don't imagine frequently using one for hours on end, but being able to use it for 10 mins at a time several times a day, and not needing to charge daily - that would be attractive (weekly maybe?)

A keyboard as good as a Psion5 would be a very big draw for me. It's very tempting, but between the GPD Pocket and Chens promised 'Lauta' homage, I don't think Gemini are going to get my money.


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