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-   -   JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85315)

shmerl 2012-07-17 17:47
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238853)
So, what exactly is "my" so called ecosystem that not everyone like?
Why do you like Jolla, when you know they are going to make a closed ecosystem?
You keep repeating it. What is that "closed ecosystem"? What is ecosystem altogether? Jolla is using Mer, which is open and uses open development tools. Jolla OS (whatever will be the final name) will be able to use open libraries from Linux stack (Qt, OpenGL ES, ALSA/PulseAudio, SDL/OpenAL and etc.). What's closed about them? Either be more clear, or stop trolling.

specc 2012-07-17 18:10
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLongshot (Post 1238849)
It depends on how you define "open". Does the community have a say in the direction of Android? No. Can the community contribute to core Android functionality? No. Can you roll your own distribution of Android? Very limited.
I think you are fooling yourself if you think that a closed system like Jolla (apparently) will let the community have any saying about the core functionality. The core functionality is more tied to HW and UX, and ecosystem.

You can roll your own distribution of Android, no problems. The main hurdle is to make a viable ecosystem. Amazon does it.

Back in the days I was a fan of BeOS. A really excellent OS. An open source clone exist today. BeOS was eventually scrapped because if I remember correctly "the time of new operating systems has ended" (or something like that). What does that mean? It means that even though you create the most perfect of operating systems it will not live, because OS is no longer a deciding factor. That's why Linux have never made it into desktops, and why Mac has grown in popularity. In other words - ecosystem is the deciding factor.

If Jolla had some cool new ideas regarding ecosystems, they maybe would have a chance (and a much better chance if they forked Android). If they had some cool stuff that made the ecosystem irrelevant (cool HW, Alien Dalvik maybe), they would have a chance. So far I have seen nothing. It seems as though they just want to continue where they left off regardless of how the world around them looks. That is no recipe for success.

Untill Jolla comes with some more relevant info, I will stop now :)

specc 2012-07-17 18:13
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmerl (Post 1238857)
You keep repeating it. What is that "closed ecosystem"? What is ecosystem altogether? Jolla is using Mer, which is open and uses open development tools. Jolla OS (whatever will be the final name) will be able to use open libraries from Linux stack (Qt, OpenGL ES, ALSA/PulseAudio, SDL/OpenAL and etc.). What's closed about them? Either be more clear, or stop trolling.
Did you even read the interview with Jolla a few pages back?

shmerl 2012-07-17 18:16
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
All these ecosystem talks sound completely out of place. Belong more to biological/environmental forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238869)
Did you even read the interview with Jolla a few pages back?
Yes. Few key points from there - they'll use Mer (it's open). They'll have open mode option for their device. They will contribute open code to the community (as possible). No more information so far. So stop all this ecosystem nonsense please.

lma 2012-07-17 18:17
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stskeeps (Post 1238731)
Besides that, nobody noticing

Quote:
- Jolla intends to donate as much of its code back to the open source community and this way develop the ecosystem. We do not want to own the ecosystem but lead it.
..this?
Truthfully, I didn't. Whenever someone says "ecosystem" I know what they have in mind is a food chain with themselves at the very top and me at the very bottom, and my brain has learned to just tune it out automatically.

But riddle me this: what good is having the code if you can't run your modifications? The only utility I can see is potentially running it on someone else's more open hardware.

specc 2012-07-17 19:26
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 1238871)
But riddle me this: what good is having the code if you can't run your modifications? The only utility I can see is potentially running it on someone else's more open hardware.
Exactly. And the difference between this and the way Google is running is things is what?

Jolla is obviously planning a one way street the same way Google is doing. Devices will run on Jolla-modified Mer, nothing else. Further up they clearly stated they won't do user enabled firmwares.

Time to sober up. Jolla is not what you make/want it to be.

shmerl 2012-07-17 19:28
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238912)
Further up they clearly stated they won't do user enabled firmwares
Where exactly did they say user won't be able to boot/install other OSes on the device at all?

They said:

Quote:
Jolla phone will be a real smartphone aimed at the mass consumer market. It will not be aimed to just Linux-geeks. Consumer will not be able to directly hack the kernel or to flash it with new software.

Our intention is to make separate version for Open Source community, Linux enthusiasts and people interested about open systems, in which these (these as in the things mentioned above) will be possible.
That version (mode? whatever, not clearly explained) will allow installing other OSes I assume. How exactly this will be (same device, some "open mode" on?, separate device?) is not clear.

mikecomputing 2012-07-17 19:41
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238853)
So, what exactly is "my" so called ecosystem that not everyone like?
Why do you like Jolla, when you know they are going to make a closed ecosystem?


do they? Never heard of sounds like you have inside info... Or just trolling...

mariusmssj 2012-07-17 19:51
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238912)
Exactly. And the difference between this and the way Google is running is things is what?

Jolla is obviously planning a one way street the same way Google is doing. Devices will run on Jolla-modified Mer, nothing else. Further up they clearly stated they won't do user enabled firmwares.

Time to sober up. Jolla is not what you make/want it to be.
Do you have any hard to back up your claims? You seems to know exactly what direction Jolla is going and what their take on software is going to be. I understand your trying to say your opinion but after multiple post yours just saying the same thing as a fact

specc 2012-07-17 19:52
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
What kind of consumer segment are you after? Is the coming phone intended only for Linux geeks?

- Our first phone is coming up later this year. And because in this market it is very difficult to operate as a small company we intend to become a serious player.
- The phone will be a smart phone for mass market. It will not be a tech phone intended for Linux hackers. Consumers are not able to hack kernel or flash new software for the device.

- We are however planning on creating a development version of the phone for open source community, those interested in Linux and open systems and for partners.
I think that part is pretty clear. Then the are planning on a development version - later on.


Quote:
Jolla intends to donate as much of its code back to the open source community and this way develop the ecosystem. We do not want to own the ecosystem but lead it.
I don't see anything here that differentiate them in principle from Google and the way they handle open source. The difference is that Google started with a developer device, Jolly is starting with a pure unhackable consumer device. The Galaxy Nexus is as good a developer phone as anything, everything is open and free.

Please people, have you gone blind?

shmerl 2012-07-17 19:58
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
I see nothing there about what they are starting and what they are doing later on. You are reading your own assumption into that. So relax and wait for more concrete statements/actions from Jolla. It takes more time to "lock" something. Unlocked variant should be implicitly there already and doesn't really require anything "later on". Just my thoughts about it.

TheLongshot 2012-07-17 20:14
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238923)
The difference is that Google started with a developer device, Jolly is starting with a pure unhackable consumer device. The Galaxy Nexus is as good a developer phone as anything, everything is open and free.
Um, the Nexus One (which was the first Android dev phone) didn't come out until 2010, a year after the first Android phone, the G1.

tiberiu900 2012-07-17 20:55
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
this link has been posted before but it seems it is needed again so here it is: http://www.intomobile.com/2012/07/11...ext-available/
there is only one device announced with developer mode available, about ecosystem there is nothing announced till later on when the device will be officialy announced.

benny1967 2012-07-17 21:03
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238868)
If Jolla had some cool new ideas regarding ecosystems...
I don't know what you mean by "ecosystem", nor do I know what Jolla is up to. But I know what the ecosystem that I want, no, that I need is: the internet. I don't want one app store only, I want community repositories, debs, sources. I don't want one PC application that takes care of syncing, I want standards like USB and Bluetooth to just work between any device and my smartphone. I don't want to subscribe to yet another so-called cloud service to host my pictures or contacts, I want to continue using those that already work for me.

After all, that's what smartphones are all about. The other thing, the device that comes with its own ecosystem and forces the consumer into this trap, is not a smartphone.

Dave999 2012-07-17 21:24
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1238965)
I don't know what you mean by "ecosystem", nor do I know what Jolla is up to. But I know what the ecosystem that I want, no, that I need is: the internet. I don't want one app store only, I want community repositories, debs, sources. I don't want one PC application that takes care of syncing, I want standards like USB and Bluetooth to just work between any device and my smartphone. I don't want to subscribe to yet another so-called cloud service to host my pictures or contacts, I want to continue using those that already work for me.

After all, that's what smartphones are all about. The other thing, the device that comes with its own ecosystem and forces the consumer into this trap, is not a smartphone.

That's is what Web applications and Web OSs. Like tizen will give you. Localized "stores" you don't need an app, and just a plug in...

shallimus 2012-07-17 21:28
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1238965)
I know what the ecosystem that I want, no, that I need is: the internet. I don't want one app store only, I want community repositories, debs, sources. I don't want one PC application that takes care of syncing, I want standards like USB and Bluetooth to just work between any device and my smartphone. I don't want to subscribe to yet another so-called cloud service to host my pictures or contacts, I want to continue using those that already work for me.

After all, that's what smartphones are all about. The other thing, the device that comes with its own ecosystem and forces the consumer into this trap, is not a smartphone.
This - the first sentence especially - articulates my feelings on the subject also.

specc 2012-07-17 21:42
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmerl (Post 1238927)
I see nothing there about what they are starting and what they are doing later on. You are reading your own assumption into that. So relax and wait for more concrete statements/actions from Jolla. It takes more time to "lock" something. Unlocked variant should be implicitly there already and doesn't really require anything "later on". Just my thoughts about it.
You are a bunch of hopeless romantics :D I'm sure if they locked it down in a safe, 1000 feet below the surface you would still say it is open and free because it's "based on Mer" :D

specc 2012-07-17 21:52
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by benny1967 (Post 1238965)
I don't know what you mean by "ecosystem", nor do I know what Jolla is up to. But I know what the ecosystem that I want, no, that I need is: the internet. I don't want one app store only, I want community repositories, debs, sources. I don't want one PC application that takes care of syncing, I want standards like USB and Bluetooth to just work between any device and my smartphone. I don't want to subscribe to yet another so-called cloud service to host my pictures or contacts, I want to continue using those that already work for me.

After all, that's what smartphones are all about. The other thing, the device that comes with its own ecosystem and forces the consumer into this trap, is not a smartphone.
That is what I want too. The N900 alternative with no ecosystem built into it. If you read the interview however, that is definitely not what Jolla is cooking up.

Therefore I don't see Jolla as an alternative, it's just yet another closed system "based on open source core". Android without apps and the Google ecosystem essentially.

I may be wrong, but based on what is known today, that is definitely where Jolla is headed.

caa 2012-07-17 21:53
Re: OpenMobile ACL rumour
 
Given this rumour:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajalkane (Post 1234860)
This hasn't been posted here, but as it's a tasty rumor why not add it. From MyNokiaBlog comments:
and the recent interview with Jolla:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusmssj (Post 1235862)
I noticed this quote, on apps:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi Hurmola, on apps said...
I believe that we have answer for this...and I understand that you cannot seriously sell a smartphone if you don't have sufficient a application offering, and I think we can answer those questions, but we will answer them when we publish our product.
Does this cryptic answer hint towards the above rumour being true? (or is at least being planned.)

Odd_gunnic 2012-07-17 22:03
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
There must be a study that correlates humanistic behavioral mannerisms (lord of the flies?) with the way this thread is going. Stop speculating on rumors, assumptions and bad translations. Wait for them to explain their strategy then jump in, they haven't done that so far.

mikecomputing 2012-07-17 22:05
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238987)
......
yet another person to my ignore list so I dont feed this troll...

lma 2012-07-17 22:18
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd_gunnic (Post 1238995)
Wait for them to explain their strategy then jump in, they haven't done that so far.
That's true. You have to wonder why they decided to start announcing stuff now if they're not ready, but whatever rocks their boat (pun intended) I suppose. I don't care about their strategy. I'm not looking to invest in them, work for them, enter into a "strategic partnership" with them, or any of that crap. I might care about their product enough to buy it, but it's looking less and less likely the more details are revealed. So again, I have to wonder why they would start announcing vague stuff when they know they'll only disappoint in the end?

Odd_gunnic 2012-07-17 22:26
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 1239007)
So again, I have to wonder why they would start announcing vague stuff when they know they'll only disappoint in the end?
I am pretty psyched! Good to see this tiny company enter a market like cellphones. It's natural they won't satisfy everyone and of course there are loads of other options for consumers

Dave999 2012-07-17 22:33
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
I Wonder how they are planning the gps/glonass software. They Will be so behind google/nokia maps. I Doubt nokia will license their software to a competitor. Voice guided navigation is pretty important nowdays.

Also, working With texts or navigate in any text are Really Useless in n9 And I Wonder How Jolla Shall Be Able To Handle Usability When Nokia Did such A lousy Job, or Jolla Just Try To Get Anything To Market Without Standard smartness.

specc 2012-07-17 23:24
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 1239007)
That's true. You have to wonder why they decided to start announcing stuff now if they're not ready, but whatever rocks their boat (pun intended) I suppose. I don't care about their strategy. I'm not looking to invest in them, work for them, enter into a "strategic partnership" with them, or any of that crap. I might care about their product enough to buy it, but it's looking less and less likely the more details are revealed. So again, I have to wonder why they would start announcing vague stuff when they know they'll only disappoint in the end?
That's basically it. They are trying to please everyone instead of making a no compromise device that fits at least one niche. You have to wonder though. If it's supposed to be an open source device, and every single person at Jolla has been working with Maemo/MeeGo for years, why don't they come here and tell us what they are up to? It's not like Nokia will come and bite them in the *** if they did. Nokia couldn't care less.

Why don't they set up an alternative site? A jolla.org?

Everything is pointing in the wrong direction. Sad but true.

shmerl 2012-07-18 00:54
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Let give them some time, and see what they'll set up. Announcing stuff before having a site is wrong IMO, but it's not the worst thing.

onethreealpha 2012-07-18 03:06
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
A small startup, probably before they were even ready to go public, are put into a position where outside pressure drives them to announce a pending product release.
This product, to all intent, is based on the linux kernel (not some fork), uses as it's base, a fully open (source and governance) OS and utilising an open source application development framework. it has been indicated that this device will continue where meego left off and offer a fresh new UI and although being a "consumer" device will be openly hackable.
And we still have complaints about it not meeting a "niche" requirement, regardless of the very real economic reality that demands a certain economy of scale in sales to be viable.
I guess if people aren't happy with their, as yet, unreleased device, they can always go and buy a.......oh wait.

SamGan 2012-07-18 03:09
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1238987)
You are a bunch of hopeless romantics :D I'm sure if they locked it down in a safe, 1000 feet below the surface you would still say it is open and free because it's "based on Mer" :D
I think the hopeless romantic is you. Your notion of open mode from what I can surmise from your rant is totally not commercially viable. If anybody can modify the OS at will, it will end up fragmented like Linux and useless to create an ecosystem or a business on. Some amount of lock-in is necessary for a commercial mass market product if only to maintain compatibility for apps. What you are dreaming of can only be created by a community as an experiment with no monetary intentions and no commercial product.

specc 2012-07-18 04:18
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamGan (Post 1239079)
I think the hopeless romantic is you. Your notion of open mode from what I can surmise from your rant is totally not commercially viable. If anybody can modify the OS at will, it will end up fragmented like Linux and useless to create an ecosystem or a business on. Some amount of lock-in is necessary for a commercial mass market product if only to maintain compatibility for apps. What you are dreaming of can only be created by a community as an experiment with no monetary intentions and no commercial product.
They are selling devices aren't they?

wmarone 2012-07-18 05:21
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1239035)
Everything is pointing in the wrong direction.
Actually, we don't know what direction things are pointing. All we have to go on is a possibly accurate, possibly misleading interview with someone who can't give away all the secrets at this time and no real insight as to what's actually going to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by specc (Post 1239035)
Sad but true.
Please don't claim something is true unless you have some sort of evidence.

Dave999 2012-07-18 08:27
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Jolla and tizen goes asia. I think the community needs to set up shop and distrubution channals. Is it possible to use asia devices in US/Europe?

mariusmssj 2012-07-18 08:33
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1239137)
Jolla and tizen goes asia. I think the community needs to set up shop and distrubution channals. Is it possible to use asia devices in US/Europe?
My friends from China have no issues using the networks here in UK on their phones

specc 2012-07-18 08:38
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmarone (Post 1239090)
Actually, we don't know what direction things are pointing. All we have to go on is a possibly accurate, possibly misleading interview with someone who can't give away all the secrets at this time and no real insight as to what's actually going to happen.


Please don't claim something is true unless you have some sort of evidence.
Read the interview!!! Or you think Jolla is lying? Just a charade to scare away everyone but the die hird suckers?

Dave999 2012-07-18 08:40
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusmssj (Post 1239139)
My friends from China have no issues using the networks here in UK on their phones
That is great, then we must find some trusted asian community members who can help ship the devices to to rest of us in case of Asia first only. Might be a job for CC.

att 2012-07-18 08:42
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 1239007)
That's true. You have to wonder why they decided to start announcing stuff now if they're not ready, but whatever rocks their boat (pun intended) I suppose.
Relevant part from the interview at IntoMobile (http://www.intomobile.com/2012/07/11...t-available/):

Quote:
Stefan: Here’s a big question I have. Why did you choose to reveal Jolla right now instead of waiting until you had a phone or an operating system to show?

Jussi: Last week there was a lot of news concerning MeeGo and PR 1.3 for the Nokia N9. People started speculating if this was the end of the story. Is this the end of the line? Will there be anymore hope? If you look at our first tweets, what we basically wanted to say is that MeeGo is not dead. We got such a tremendous response from Twitter and the online community and even traditional media that we didn’t have a choice but to just go with it.

NokiaFanatic 2012-07-18 11:16
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/36...ngry-birds.htm

Quote:
Managing director Jussi Hurmola said it was clear that Jolla's phone needs third-party support, applications and an ecosystem. He pointed out that a version of Angry Birds is already available for MeeGo devices.

Read more: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/36...#ixzz20yJoSpjX

lma 2012-07-18 12:15
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Because clearly the world still doesn't have enough Angry Birds consoles. Also from the same interview:

Quote:
we will also create a software store where consumers can buy applications for their phone
Quote:
But one has to remember that Jolla's main goal is not to create an open source phone.
Quote:
The phone will be a smartphone for mass market. It will not be a tech phone intended for Linux hackers. Consumers are not able to hack the kernel or flash new software for the device.
Meh.

mariusmssj 2012-07-18 12:32
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lma (Post 1239219)
Because clearly the world still doesn't have enough Angry Birds consoles. Also from the same interview:


Meh.


Quote:
Our intention is to make separate version for Open Source community, Linux enthusiasts and people interested about open systems, in which these (these as in the things mentioned above) will be possible.

That article only picket out the parts that it wanted to show

erendorn 2012-07-18 12:44
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Incidently, the "supported version with closed bits plus unsupported testing/debugging community version" is a model that has been proven to work.

mariusmssj 2012-07-18 13:02
Re: JollaMobile : Jolla continues Nokia's excellent work on #MeeGo based smartphones
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by erendorn (Post 1239233)
Incidently, the "supported version with closed bits plus unsupported testing/debugging community version" is a model that has been proven to work.
well they will not make any real money with a fully open source phone. To start of their business i think having a mass market phone is not too bad, once they got a decent market share and enough to survive they should be able to please everyone.

Don't forget that N900 was a nokias creation.


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