Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Would love to hear some community opinion before we make the decision:

How do you think with the boarder-less screen? Like the latest Samsung or iPhone 10 etc... Like the majority touch surface is the screen (on top of a keyboard, of course)

I personally against it for 2 reasons: 1. Vulnerable to a drop. You are guaranteed to break something on a drop to the ground... 2. Might make edge swipe more difficult. I'm not sure on this point as I never tried swipe OS on such screen, but a little bit of bezel will make the experience better IMHO

But for opinion supporting it is quite simple, a smaller physical size while maintaining the same screen size, i.e 5.5 inch in a 5.2 inch body, and make it easier for gestures...

What's our thoughts? ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I'd keep a small bezel at least, for the reasons you have suggested. The extra few millimeters aren't a problem IMO, especially if they are used to put a nice big battery inside!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I share the same point of view. It doesn't seem to me that no bezel has any big advantage over "pretty small" bezel except the WOW so cool effect. But Livermorium will have the WOW effect anyways, namely the QWERTY ;-)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I'm one of those who would go for a smaller device if it was realistic (but I understand it is not at this stage), but in fact I'm not too concerned about width so I would keep a small bezel as well, for the same reasons. Now, if the top and bottom bezels can stay small to control the total length of the phone, then even a 5.5" screen might fit reasonably well in a pocket, and the keyboard would be easier to use with thumbs.

In any case, weren't you initially planning on using a slightly curved screen (2.5D) to facilitate swipes?

What you came up with in the mockup pics below looked like a perfect balance to me (although I doubt the actual device can be this thin) :

http://reho.st/talk.maemo.org/attach...1&d=1501626391http://reho.st/talk.maemo.org/attach...1&d=1501703900

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I see it like Kabouik.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

well.....
-make it with sailfis in mind
-keep 3.5mm jack
-no stupid notch

and make it with screws so that we can replace broken screen and secure enough of them for spares. Problem solved. :D
In 20+ years of using mobile anything I think that I dropped my anything maybe 5 times so I'm not worried much about dropping. But the problem with bezelles phones is that they often react on the edges when I don't want them. I still have nightmares because of samung edge variants of company phones. Or stupid edge sense on wifes U11.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Hi Chen !
I never tried borderless screen, but can give you another feedback, if it can broaden the question.

I installed this weekend the community port of Sailfish on my PhotonQ (with hardware keyboard). It works great, but I had the opposite problem: the casing around the screen goes a slight bit above it, making edge swipes a pain as the casing prevents the finger to touch right on the edge of the screen.

Doing so, I compared it with the Jolla 1 (and my previous N8), and found 2 things to take into account in regards of edges: comfort to hold, and edge swipes:
* N8 was great to hold, as it is thick enough, and the edge shape is mostly round. (The same shape was later used on N9 with curved screen to use edge swipes, and your concept looks a lot like it)
* Jolla 1 is not so great to hold due to the edge being in 2 parts (the TOH concept with one half flat, and the other half rounded), but on edge around the screen is a bit rounded to allow easily reaching the edges with the thumb. I never had trouble activating it.
* PhotonQ is in the middle regarding the comfort to hold, as it shape is continuous, but still more angular than the N8, and a said above, the casing makes it a difficult to kick edge swipes (top and bottom swipes are ok).

About borders, older phone had really huge border that should be possible to reduce without introducing problems regarding edge swipes, but I would not go above the point where the digitizer reach a zone where you hand is naturally resting while you hold the phone (firmly, like while walking). That may be only 1 or 2 mm from the outer dimension probably, not more, but depending on the shape of the phone (edges roundness, thickness, width), the resting position may change a bit. I will try tommorow to borrow a friend's S8 to make a few tests and see how the edge is actually accessible to confirm this though.
If it is easier to get border-less screens (as it is the new trend), then there may be some software mitigation possible to handle it (increase the range for edge swipe, disable a few pixels on the sides, palm filter like on touchpads)... ?

Finally, with a hardware keyboard, screen real estate is a little bit less important than without, as you don't cut the screen in half to put a virtual keyboard in it for most things. Some will still want bigger screens for tasks done without the hardware keyboard, like using it vertically, watching video or reading website.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

If you had a chance to play the Keyboard Mod or own one, you will probably notice there isn't a single piece of glue in it. Not at all. We have probably 12-13 major parts but only with a few screws, and it's contains moving parts. And (in theory, not warranty) is user replaceable. It won't change for this project as well.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

If that means a larger screen in a smaller space, I'm for it.

If it means that I'll have to suffer due to a clumsy execution, add a slim bezel back. I'd rather have access to all of the gestures without having to stretch my reach or be careful and precise.

I'm not clumsy, so the drop is not my concern. But if it has a keyboard, the swipe from the bottom is nigh impossible.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

No, I didn't. I do use motorola now since J1 screen half died but it's an old x play. Z series is not exactly popular here in is quite expensive, my operator still asks ~500€ for first Z :confused: And since you anounced this project I was very pleased with that mockup and (now seem to be gone) sailfish so I'll rather give you that money at some point. I do have to say that ASOP without all that OEM bloatware and google is not that bad and from usefull app POV better than sailfish. But the keyboard alone won't make AOSP some 600€ better than it is.
If I do get some good deal for Z then maybe I'll get the mod also but ATM I'm still hoping for yours all in one :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I'm assuming this device will have the screen slide out instead of just the keyboard like the mod. So I was wondering if you thought about slapping a second (thin) battery behind the screen or would that cost too much?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Wouldn't that upset the balance of the device?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I don't think so, the keyboard, battery, SoC etc. is on the bottom half, it's just the screen (maybe speaker(s) too) adding a thin battery behind the display shouldn't affect it.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I don't think, that a second battery under the screen makes much sense. In my opinion one device one battery. But I think the battery should be changeable.

There is only one reason i could imagine a second battery makes sense: When the second battery is just for caching to make the main battery hot swapable.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I agree with Fellfrosch, but this is just my uneducated point of view. I have no skills in engineering and designing electronic devices.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

A second battery will be only useful for hot swap, it was used in some rugged phones with logistics etc.

For general users I don't think it's necessary as long as the battery is removable. As adding a secondary battery will lead complexity and add unnecessary thickness.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

well what I wouldn't classify as unecessary thickness would be to have dual front facing stereo speakers, not sure where one would place them (outer edge of keyboard side, or on the display side), I would like them either way

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Like the idea of chenPhone showing up one day ready to ship. No heads up, no notifications.

Regarding screens. Depends of the purpose of this project. But obviously a more advance screen solution is preferred, unless it makes the device too expensive.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I'll drop my bit here. As it was said before I don't think that bezelless screen is any better. It will probably add to the price as well as being slightly more fragile (just a guess). But what I would love to see is a device available for anyone. There is so many people out there wanting to have device like this. I'm still using n900 as my second device. And just by accident (playing a computer game) I came across a guy who uses SF mobile. And there is so many more out there. I was so looking forward to neo900, but now it looks like it will never happen. What I'm trying to say is that there is a huge market out there plus on top of that there is a ton of people tired of using android and iOS just eager to try something else. I reckon with right campaign this project has a potential to became a hit. It's definitely a move in the right direction.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Another interesting thing was that Qualcomm introduced a new tier of SoC's, the 700 series, being better than mid-range but lower than the flagship level.

Could mean we could go with a SoC from this series, or it could mean the mid-range 600 series could drop in price and use that instead.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Maybe I just haven't heard very good stereo speakers in a smartphone, but I'd say they are useless. As the idea of stereo sound is that you have two channels far enough from each other, and playing slightly different tone which brings the 3d effect to the sound. While phones are still relatively small (read: less than 1,5 meters long), the speakers must be very close to each other. Your ears will not find a difference between the tones of these two speakers. So it still sounds like having only one speaker. Mono sound may sound quite nice actually (for example Tivoli Audio radios play mono). So I'd rather go with one, probably higher quality speaker than two lower. But this is mostly offtopic anyway.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

So maybe to still grab that feature it might be possible to add a (large) capacitor to keep the device going for 2-5 seconds? :D

On screen resolution, please go with fhd 1920x1080.
I own moto z as you know and the 2k screen is useless apart from showing off, viewing photos and playing games maybe but obviously drains the battery more in any situation due to more effort to render up to 4x more pixels than fhd depending on actual resolution.
Also in arm length distance there is absolutely no difference to make out imo.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

In my understand, a large capacitor might not be enough - not sure if user can always perform the swap that quick. It's no good if he drops the phone in a hurry :rolleyes:

In general capacitors are combined with "cold swap", in contrast of "hot swap" which directly changes battery.

Cold swap normally needs to set the device into hibernation first, then change battery, then wake the device and resume from where it was left. It require certain effort from software as well, but in this case a large capacitor is enough powering the time.

I personally never understands the needs of 2K screen on a handheld, apart from drain more battery and put more pressure on GPU. The pixel depends on which type of screen is used but with 5.5-6 inch even with pentile I can hardly see any visible pixels (maybe I'm getting old haha) I completely agree with you on this. And I don't know why the mainstream uses 2K screen on high-end (even some 4K :eek: ) and even some tech bloggers review 1080p device screen as a con instead of a pro... Microscope eyes ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I got the chance to borrow a friend's S8 which has both borderless screen and curved display (that's what we call 2.5D I think ?).

Edge swipes are working great on it !

When holding the phone, my fingers tip where not above the screen (just resting on the edge, but that may depend on phone/hand size ratio), but on the opposite side, I had the base of the thumb (metacarpal part) partially covering the screen edge.
There must by some hardware or software mitigation for that, like palm detection on touchpads on laptops, because even with that, i could trigger easily edge swipes with the thumb from extreme edge of the screen.

Having the 2.5D screen in this case helps I think, as the thumb is always on the screen when triggering the edge swipe and not switching from the case to the screen, with feels a bit less comfortable.

Don't take this post as a will to have a border less screen, only a feedback that it could actually work quite good. Depending on the price and availability or your options, that kind of solution shouldn't be put away against usability issue fear.

And I too would be happy with a 1080p screen. Even the Jolla 1's resolution. Quality is more important than pixel count to me. In that regard AMOLED would be a must, but not sure it could be available...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I do not see the point in a battery hotswap feature on the Livermorium. It would add complexity, bulk, development time, and extra work on the design/engineering/software for very little benefits. Few people would actually benefit from it, and in very rare situations. Also, if you drop your Livermorium, I believe a reboot is the least of your concerns, it will undoubtedly be more fragile than, say, a plastic N900 with pretty big bezels and great shock absorption.

The Neo900 should come with a hotswap feature when it's out (I hope), but this guy is a different thing. It's a very hacky device, and its future users may have already accumulated several battery replacements over the years for their aging N900, especially as many N900 were overclocked and ate significantly more battery. These people are likely to carry several of these when travelling with their Neo900. The booting time of a N900 is also a lot longer than Sailfish on a Jolla 1 (we'll see about the Neo900), let alone the more recent Sailfish devices, so it made more sense to avoid reboots. Finally, I think the feature just came with almost no trade-offs because there was space for this thanks to the extra thickness necessary for the Neo900 board, which will likely not be the case for the Livermorium. And if there was any lost space in the Livermorium case, I'd definitely stick a long slim capacitive stylus there instead of a capacitor or a few mAh of battery.

Chen will have to settle the final design to make it happen anyway, we can't suggest new features every few months or this will make it hard to move forward in my opinion.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

There appears to be some devastating news for Moto that looks like it is going to affect Chens keyboard mod. I wonder what that means for this project as well.

Chen is quoted towards the end.

http://pocketnow.com/2018/03/08/leno...(pocketnow.com)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

cheese up...It might be a way to free up some time for this project. bad news might be bad news or bad news is good news. who knows. I am always sceptical ...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Note also that capacitors are very large - about 100x the size of a battery with the same capacity.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Thanks for the link. Looking for more details, I found out Chen is answering a lot of questions and giving informations on the IGG page : https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/k...to-z#/comments
For example:
what I understand from here, there are potential troubles on two timescales :
* short term : they need some actions from motorola to be ready for production. Those actions should have been carried by the team that was laid off in Chicago. From his comments, it looks like it should still be possible (problem being not technical, but missing the person doing it), but may take some additional time.
* long term : there may not be a future motomod compatible phone (still too early to be sure of anything on that front...), so could limit sales and revenue after the current phone are phased out. Hopefully, there will still be enough sales to cover R&D costs, and keeps them afloat, and reusing the keyboard design in a future phone like the Lauta-revival Chen talks about could help spreading those costs further (but needs new investments).


Hang on Chen, I hope it will be sorted out quickly.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Nokia Communicator will be back?

https://www.is.fi/digitoday/mobiili/...005648054.html

"Johtajan mukaan yhtiöllä on tuotekehityksessä parhaillaan uusi retromalli. Päätös sen lanseeraamisesta tehdään lähiaikoina.

Onko se Communicator?

– En missään nimessä sulje pois, Rantala virnistää."


Chief Marketing Officer Rantala says that they are developing new retro models. Is that Communicator?

- I do not rule out it, Rantala grins.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

HMD's Nokia Android smartphones are unfortunately having locked bootloader.
There was an interview that HMD is planning to allow unlocking their bootloader, but since then more than half a year has passed already...

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Chen, I hope things are going well with your qwerty phone project. Is there any news you can share with us here?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Updated to you via PM separately. :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Is it that secret, that PMs are necessary? I think there are others on the forum which are also quite interested in news/plans on this project, me included.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

:confused: hell, yeah!
now, that's for sure.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I just don't want to spoil your surprise when you see the running product. ;)

I have changed the hardware plan, instead of a mid-range one we will now use the high-end levels. (Hint: a 10nm Qualcomm SoC, and other components in the same level) I will share more information once we hit certain milestone. There are still a few technical uncertainties for the form-factor at this stage, and I want to take time to solve the problem. I lot of things that does not exist in sliders 10 years ago.

I have made so many upgrades that I believe will surprise you when you see it. ;) And this time even better is no more crowdfunding is needed. Please allow some time to let me do the jobs. ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Bad marketing strategy, Chen. Never promise to blow customers' minds, that will only tesult in unrealistic expectations ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Managing expectations is key for happy customers. They will be happy with what they are getiing because they knew what they would get ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

we are used to that. Even the realistic ones turned to unrealistic here :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Let's not criticize who as already done a magnificent job with the Moto Keyboard Mod and is doing a wonderfull job with The new QWERTY device project. I believe chenliangchen is only using marketing tricks to keep this new personal project alive and kicking. Congratulations to chenliangchen once more for all is great ideas. Keep on the good work