Re: Ask the Council!
 

• Debian and Arch Linux under Software in the Public Interest...
• Mint completely independent

come to mind, indeed

only problem i can think of... GNU / Linux distros run on your standard PC, thus HW support is no problem; we have NITDroid which is tweaked to run on N9(00), but has anyone tried to run Maemo (Freemantle or Harmattan) on a standard ANDroid device?
may seem a trivial detail, but i think until we have that, sticking with NOKIA (i.e. hardware platform) would seem a prudent choice.

would we have the knowledgeable folks to write drivers for ANDroid devices? e-yes comes to mind, of course, but...

Re: Ask the Council!
 

a simple query needs a simple answer .
what is gonna happen with this maemo.org at the end of 2012 ?
what about the data on this site ?
what about the repos ?
what about the packages which are needed to be put in the repos at the first place and secondly travel from devel to testing and finally to extras ?
what about wiki.maemo.org ?
what about the flasher kernel ?
actually as a member of this great community, what i am worried about is to loose all the greatness related to this place ,is it simply gonna vanish in the air ?
where exactly maemo stands after 2012 ?
what about the devs who still are working on maemo packages and may be interested even after 2012 ?
do we own a platform in case this site is gonna un-reachable ,so there wont be a data or the questions which were answered in many threads here ?
If maemo.org really gets abandonded by those nokia men ,why isnt it possible for us to be accepted as an entity to meego.com when we are already having a portion for harmattan ?
So far,sorry to say but all i see is TROLL TALKS and there has not been any solution to current thing .
Can any one,among the council, sense the decision about maemo.org from nokians ?
i believe since i have been a member of this community for more than a year or so ,i am really concerned since i am greatly in love with this place & yeah probably these questions will be raised in every head here on this maemo planet .
please Talk to nokia if it is appropriate . thanks !

Re: Ask the Council!
 

(10 characters)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Re "troll talks": let's be literal and avoid hyperbole, thanks.

Anyway, I'm not currently on the council, but I don't have to be to answer your question: no. Sure, people outside Nokia can guess and speculate, but that's all. Those inside Nokia can't or won't say. And those of us like jaffa and myself in the middle, we're not even supposed to speculate.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

No one knows yet so pointless to speculate. btw, maemo.org has never had a permanent funding.

The current answer is this:
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/mae...il/005031.html

Re: Ask the Council!
 

apparently smok[k]u did some foray into this as well, but that was nearly two years ago...
Running Maemo 5 on Android hardware

EDIT: for sake of completeness, some MeeGo perspectives
Porting Maemo/Meego to Android hardware - how plausible?
in the last post zehjotkah points to ARM/MSMQSD
it seems to end with MeeGo 1.1 (This page was last modified on 21 June 2011, at 22:21)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Nokia pays the infrastructure at http://qt-project.org - but this is peanuts compared to the big team of Qt developers in the Nokia payroll.

http://qt-project.org/wiki/Nokia-and-Qt

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Qt never relied on any 3rd party closed source technology. So making it Free Software was Nokias decision alone.
That's different for Maemo. Even if Nokia would want to make Maemo Free Software there would still be the binary blobs like firmwares that are not under Nokias control.
And afaik due to some strange regulations it's impossible to access the US mobile networks with Free Software since you have to sign NDAs for that. (But I might be totally wrong at that point.)

So assuming that what I just said is only half-way correct it's completely impossible for Nokia to make Maemo (as a complete system) Free Software, even if they wanted to (which I seriously doubt in the first place).

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Actually that decision was Trolltech's (Qt was Free long before Nokia bought it). I think what SD69 meant above was that Nokia made Qt a community project with open development and governance, something laudable in itself but orthogonal to software freedom.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I think there is a relationship (although it might be a tenuous grasp to let me segue into the question): what would this mean for Maemo? Nokia are not going to open anything which isn't already open. Is this the foundation of the aforementioned "non-profit legal entity"? Is it picking up on Graham's point about a perpetual distribution licence?

I have difficulty believing that if we have difficulty gaining more than five candidates for the Community Council, that it'll be easier finding people with enough drive, vision, time and skill to run a non-profit legal entity doing what the council does and a whole lot more.

There are three basic options for maemo.org (I've left off "be a general mobile internet device" site as I don't think it's viable):

1. Focusing on Maemo-related devices, developments and hacks. This covers the five steps between 770, through N8x0, N900 and N9(50).
2. Defocus on Maemo-related devices, expand on anything mobile running "mainline" Linux. This covers Maemo (including Harmattan), MeeGo, Tizen, Mer.
3. Focus on Nokia's Linux-based open devices. This is a superset of #1, but leaves the door open for whatever else Nokia might have brewing, if Linux is actually exposed (porting S40 to a Linux kernel doesn't count)

#1 is a recognition that everything's pretty much finished, and we're winding down/maintaining a niche. That's not a bad thing, it's just accepting that we're not going to be get Draw Something or $LATEST_SHINY_FAD.

#2 is risky, but might be a good position if Mer gets more widely adopted. MeeGo's effectively deader than Maemo already, so there mightn't be much change practically. Tizen is mostly vapourware, so would only be recognising that we might get a growth spurt if Tizen took off.

#3 is similar to #1 in the short-term, but with the hope/aspiration to be Nokia's go-to-community for any future Linux efforts. I don't know how much stock I'm putting in the rumours, but if it is low-end, the fact the kernel and userland are organised similarly may not bridge the gap between user experience and intended audiences. Of course, this might be exactly equivalent to #1.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

not visible (i think) is a 1½ option...
NOKIA releases more Maemo devices, with or without the "MeeGo" co-label
rather then another Harmattan device, an OS2013 one.
in which case the future of Maemo.org can be pretty much unchanged compared to what it was before the MeeGo related cession

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Well, IMO you're swapping reason and effect here. From my point of view, we had difficulties to gain more than five candidates, *because* we're not self-governed entity, = Council doesn't have (almost) any real tools, at least in current approach. Even description of "what Council is meant for" are - most of the times - quite "philosophical", instead of practical.

At the same time, negative "emotions" are thrown on Council every time something isn't as it should be - no matter if Council had chance to change that, or not. Thus, no surprise, that not many people want to take up that volunteer role.

The problem is, that You can't be half-virgin, half-pregnant. Either we're self governing ourselves, with all hard work it require, but we *do* have ways of tunneling great potential in Community here (I think every involved person admit, that overall knowledge/expertise amongst Maemo devs is impressive), or much energy is lost due to slow/non-existent momentum due to relying on 3th forces to govern us. Not to mention, that such "forces" currently have big problems of their own, and aren't interested in Maemo "almost" at all.

/Estel

Re: Ask the Council!
 

It's a sound argument, but if there was a league of people waiting to run an empowered self-governing community (and it still isn't clear to me what that is: see later ;-)) where are they?

Having been on the Council and having been the person who came up with the idea, I know what the council can & can't do. There's a lot which can be done; and a lot of it (when done well) is the same drudgerous stuff a legal entity would involve: assigned roles (e.g. chair); regular meetings; careful minuting; openness and transparency.

If there was a league of people waiting to run an empowered self-governing community, where are they in proposing what that is and how it would work? And this needs to be in-depth. It's not a trivial exercise and requires far more documentation, openness, communication and transparency than - frankly - I've ever seen come out of maemo.org (myself included, and before MeeGo finally imploded I wrote this Blueprint).

You don't have to tell me. Go and read the vitriolic threads about the Council organising a "takeover" of ITT by maemo.org; when it was ultimately Reggie's decision. Fun times.

Getting pregnant requires someone to step forward and "get things rolling". A wannabe father & mother can't just wait for nine months and go "nope, still not got a baby" ;-)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I think we've got to the point where we... 100% agree :) I'm careful about being too optimistic, but considering latest "high pitch" in cooperation, I got strong feeling that we're finally starting to have enough room for utilizing available resources (people's enthusiasm and actual do-work included).

It means, that we can focus on fully using actual potential - at the same time, creating every thing needed for 100% self-governed entity, as a natural (not enforced) process - and, if, at some point, we feel that self-governing would actually do give us benefits "now", we can proceed. It's nice, to have possibility of deciding via meritocratic means of available-resources/room for improvement values, rather than doing it as "critical fix" for actual road-blocker issues.

So, As I've said in other thread - I'm optimistic, and if cooperation is going to look so good as it started to in last (short, but promising) period, there is no need to hurry - haste can be replaced with proper planning and "backstage" preparation.
---

Yet, I'm also convinced that - even in situation of best cooperation - we should keep a backup plan. Considering current financial problems, I can easily imagine situation, where Nokia does radical thing to avoid going bankrupt / just goes bankrupt / is practically bought by other company, which may render current promises (stability of financing, 6 months-before information about further status, etc) "obsolete".

Of course, it's bad case scenario - this bugger was announced to be dead many times before - I'm not expecting it very soon, nor wishing it (someone could say "not anymore :)"), yet we must count it as possible situation, and get prepared accordingly to actual risk.

/Estel

Re: Ask the Council!
 

In case someone else is waiting for the logs/minutes from the last tuesday's council meeting you can find the raw irc logs here:
http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclo...04-17T18:00:24

As for the actually question for this thread: How is the council <-> community communication done nowadays? for me it seems that is not really happening. Sorry for ranting but IMO one of the council's most important tasks is left undone. namely "making sure that one portion of the community knows what is going on in another". I'm really hoping the next council holds transparency, etc. in high value.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Thanks for posting the log. To be clear, 2/3 of the Council is not even around, including the person who was responsible for running the meetings, logs, etc. I try to answer and communicate things.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Yeah, I know. If you need help with getting meeting minutes, etc. done, just ask. At least I could lend a hand every now then (when I don't miss the meeting, etc. :) )

btw, it would help a lot to get a meeting bot running in the meeting channel. I'm pretty sure we can find someone to run it. Actually if we can't easily find anyone has a bot that we can use I could setup one.

In case someone is not familiar with the meetbot see http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot

Re: Ask the Council!
 

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...26#post1196626
After reading all of this ,one thing was still in the hoods ,what about after 2012 ( the aftermath ) ?
anyway thanks for the IRC logs ,its great to see y'all working great for community survival .thanks everyone .

Re: Ask the Council!
 

The way the cycle is setup is that budgets are done in June/July time-frame for the following year. That's historically been how things run, and they continue to run this way. There was also a statement that in general the "default" is to fund the site, and an argument would need to be made to pull funding. Currently there are no voices calling to pull funding, as far as our current contact with Nokia can tell.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I would like to ask when will we have the banner for next CC voting present on TMO? I've asked about it a few days ago and still nothing. This banner could help more people to interest int the community voting and in maemo in generally.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

It was decided last time that only the council can formally decide/regulate what banners to put up. I'm only waiting for the email.

I would suggest to have the same artist who created that CSSU banner at the upper right create the elections banner if possible.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

The banner is there. It looks very good and it is the same style as CSSU. From your statment I understand that I'm supposed to ping somehow SD69 and he has to contact you and everything will be done?

E.

I've sent a PM to SD69. Let us see what will happen :)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Thanks for the PM. I sent the banner to council more than a week ago and haven't heard any objections. So, sure I'll send an email to Nemein approving it on behalf of council for the forum and other pages.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Reggie, fwiw the banner is here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=138

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I've added the banner on TMO. I've linked it to the candidates page: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Coun...e_declarations

I was going to link it to: http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo_elections/ but the details were incomplete (no links to wiki pages, TMO discussions, etc). I wish there was a better blog entry with all the details, similar to the following: http://maemo.org/community/council/m...eptember_2011/

If there's a better link, let me know.

* Updated to: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Coun...tion_Q1/2_2012

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Please use the banner I sent you. In the banner from the thread, the word "future" overlaps the other text. A minor point, but we want the banner to look good.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

This is awesome! Thanks to every person involved in making it happen!

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I brought up a proposal to 2 Nokia representatives, Quim (Qt side) and Chanse (WP side), for a contest that I would run. The details are below (from an email to them):

Quim politely declined to make one available directly (and I understand), but proposed I ask the council if an N9 could be allocated from the contest pool for this.

I believe that the idea I've proposed stands a good chance of getting healthy debate going and with debate comes heightened awareness and thus natural viral marketing-- which serves to rope in not just the average consumers but developers as well.

So, question to the council: acceptable?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

My reply via email earlier today was:

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Right-- isn't that what I summarized?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I just want to be as transparent as possible. :)

Re: Ask the Council!
 

OK, I doesn't want to sound like negatron, neither I'm Council member, but, probably, someone must be first to say that...

Texrat, while overall idea of catalyzing useful discussion sounds OK, I don't like idea of handling (even single) device from "Community Awards" pool (awards from major contributions to Community) to "random comment lottery". It just isn't right - we'll take device from hypothetical least lucky person, who contributed something *great* for Community over long period of time, and give it to randomly chosen commenter in Your blog/site/whatever? :confused: Of course I acknowledged, that spam/unrelated comments won't count in lottery, but still...

Don't get me wrong again - I'm perfectly sure that Your intentions are clear and good, and I'm not suggesting, that anything "malicious" is going on. It just seems to me, that it isn't justified to give device away in such... Well, way, and I don't see any benefits for the Community, *after* such random person receive device.

/Estel

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Protests duly noted, already expected before I suggested this idea, and fully understood.

Again, however, my goal was to expand awareness and generate new interest. I don't expect this community to necessarily get behind that as much as I would, say, Nokia marketing.

Sadly, I'm betting I could obtain a Lumia 800 far, far more easily than a Nokia device from the Qt side of things... and that defeats the purpose.

Ah well. Waiting for current or next council to chime in and kill it officially.

You're looking for the benefit in the wrong place.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Hi, a question to the counciI.

I was wondering if there has been a follow up action on this particular item: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...1&postcount=59 ?
Is there currently a council member who's got the ins and outs on this subject?

The current package in the repos is still the original from laasonen.

n900user259

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I just skimmed through the EazyList thread and I thought why not have a community webserver for cloud apps. It could be run by the council, on the existing infrastructure, allow for say 512mb of apace for each app that needs it. So we don't have to put extra burden to free app developers, and provide a somewhat secure place for storing cloud data. This would also alleviate some concerns about privacy.

We have to discuss some rules of course about how the data is stored, if encryption is mandatory, who has access etc. but I think it would enable more quality connected applications.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

my 1st thought was... «512 MBs :-o :eek:... most Maemo apps are in the "few MB" range, who on earth would need 512 for one app ?!? »
then i went on to [Announce] EasyList for N9/N950 and thought...
«512 for one app, huh??? 1st come, 1st served or...»
i wonder whether the Community has the ressources (i.e. storage space) for cloud storage;
shouldn't we leave this to big players like Google & Co who can afford to offer 10GB for free to each subscriber & can sell 10s or 100s of GB if wished? :confused:
or... do you have a new business plan for Maemo.org? :rolleyes:

then again, who would care?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Question. What will happen if I enter talk.maemo.org in my browser the first of Jan 2013?

Re: Ask the Council!
 

I would expect it to load a page showing a desirable Nokia device with a desirable os.

Re: Ask the Council!
 

Don't You know, that world ends in 2012? ;)

Seriously though, it was answered zillion times before, that Nokia's financial plans for post-31-December-2012 will be announced approximately 6 months before, i.e. in summer. In case of any acoelopcalypse, we will have time to react. But, mind You. it's much unlikely to happen now. In my personal opinion, less than 5% of risk.

/Estel

Re: Ask the Council!
 

So Elop&co have not made up the minds yet?