Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

This is a mis-understanding, I'm not doing any marketing in here. The fact is even if each active community member bought 2 or even 3 of this device, it's still way too small to make it break even.

I just want to share the excitement and challenges before anywhere else. As I believe we share the same interest and passion for this product.

But project wise, it isn't a good idea to share a lot of internal plans publicly, unless crowdfunding is needed. This is the reason I want to keep limited publicity at this stage, until I hit a good stage to reveal more details. I want to let community know I haven't abandoned this project but trying to make it as good as I can.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

a device in customer hands might blow my mind. Please no prototypes or other cool images or made up demos. But hey, it’s just me.

Hit me with a release date any random day and I will be really impressed if something is available.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Hi, any news about this project ? Thanks

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

As it happens, there is news today that the Moto Mods program is still alive:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/0..._another_year/

I don't have any info about the QWERTY device though.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

It's under R&D process integrating the new features into design. (Such as boarder-less screen but in slider form.)

BTW, it won't be the specs in this thread posted last year, it is actually much higher.

Plan to show some working proto next quarter.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Spec will be larger than life. No need to hurry.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

That sounds great. Reading the word "prototype" in the same sentence as "next quarter" helps starting to feel the thing is real and will hopefully happen and hit the market before I die of old age (or anything else). I am eagerly looking forward and you are the only person on Earth who could claim being even more impatient to see it. All other maemians come after. Yes, you come after lads, don't even argue. I know it for sure, because reasons.

Anyway. What do you mean exactly by "borderless screen but in slider form"?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

My guess is like the recently announced Oppo Find X, where the camera slides out behind the screen, the screen itself is of the "bezel-less" variety, except in our case it slides out long ways for the keyboard. Although I wouldn't expect this qwerty phone to have that same screen where the bezels are very slight, he is only human after all.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

A full size usb in a modern device, which targets the masses used to sleek design, doesn't seem a smart idea to me...we have to accept some compromises if we want this project to become real

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I don’t think the QWERTY slider is THE factor that exclude it from the masses :D

It’s the name. Or lack of name. I remember someone calling in it chenPhone. I’m more interested in what name Chen going for. The phone i years away from the masses.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

USB-C is the way to go for a 2018 device, and I believe Chen already mentioned it would be USB-C.

However, I personnaly don't really care what USB type it comes with (I still prefer USB-C) as long as it features OTG. Carrying a small adapter attached to my mouse or keyboard or thumb drive is not the issue, being able to connect them is the most important for me.

Both USB-C and OTG are planned if I remember correctly.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

The Moto Mods and this new project are developed separately by different teams members. They are more like in parallel.

The problem for the Mod is it adds too much thickness in the middle, and makes the top too heavy and overall too thick. Obviously an all in one device is much better.

Also some minor part like the springs, I have to kept the spring open in order to reduce middle part thickness for above reasons but this problem won't exist in the upcoming device.

My experience from Mod project is never rely on anyone else, regardless big or small, but being independent and control everything in my own hands. ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I know the development is well underway but will the device make use of the newly certified WPA3?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Good question

But why do you need that now?

I guess we don’t have a device currently but more of a scetch or blueprint of the design of the slider. Nothing more.

My answer is currently: no but it might be ready for WPA4.

If Chen going for skunk work, without crowed scamming I think there is no need to advertise the features unless there is a working device with a working OS ready for shipment.

But that just me.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

WPA3 is a software update that will be released for the various operating systems after it is finalized and released to the general public.

You will also need a wireless access point that has WPA3.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, it's the next quarter now, let the countdown commence.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Yeah. I vote for the final countdown! But any countdown would do.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Status update: Chen is possibly working with something. And you and me are waiting to see if this is real or not. And if so, how real.

Sit tight!

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Some member here has already seen it. Once more progress has been made I will share with them again and take feedback.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

"I have shown it to one but I am not going to show it to anyone else." That is a VERY curious approach. Why not share the progress with everyone?

Also... why would anyone "thank" that post? Are people so desperate that they are thankful for any illusion of an update?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Because being open about the development would mean everyone here would discuss it, and either put pressure on Chen to add/change things that would delay the project, or bash him for not taking into account the remarks.
Everyone scream when there is vaporware, and at least for this one, you can't as he has not launch the project before being ready.

That doesn't mean that he is closed to comments, so he choose people he trust to give constuctive feedback, in a way he can control (unlike this forum, me included).

Not usual in this temple of open-source/hw, but seems like something a project that want to succeed could do.

I don't thing thanks mean anything particular on this forum, as not two people uses them the same way, but you can see it as a feedback that his posts are read carefully by people expecting this product, and any information he will be ready to give (like this "not ready yet" post, which is a lot more than some other projects we often talk about...).

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I have thanked the post because he just shared that the device is currently under active development, not dormant as it was when he was finalizing the Moto Mod, and made it clear that he will take feedback. Two good news in one sentence, not too bad, plus I'm grateful that he still monitors the thread. He does not post as often as he used to, I suppose because he is actually working on the device and not sharing ideas or asking open questions like when this thread started, so it is good to see him keeping us posted.

I believe the reason why progress is not shared with everyone in total transparency as this stage is because this is not a crowdfunded device. As far as I know, we don't know how it is funded, but it is reasonable to assume that sharing every step or milestone with the public could be an issue regarding the underlying funding contracts if third parties and money are involved. I have no information on that, but the way I see it, the approach is more a way to share as much as he can rather than keep things as secret as he can.

In any case, I did not see much or get details, Chen has been very cautious. All I can say is I did see something I didn't see in the thread, so there was indeed some progress being done, unless everything was forged (but, well, do we believe that?).

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I pressed thanks because I can [emoji846]

Enviado desde mi H3123 mediante Tapatalk

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I’m all for sharing with everyone. But only if there is something to show. Currently it’s hardly any real thing and so it’s totally useless for everyone.

The only purpose I can see to share is to give potential buyers a sense of importance to the project.

But then again. Chen had a slightly unrealistic timetable last time we discussed that. So to me, team Chen should have something real to show when he wants to show it.

Not sure way he wants to state the member have seen something but not anyone else. The might give the feeling of exclusion.

Then again. Not sure what Chen is up to.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Why not? Why I should share the progress with EVERYONE even this is not a crowdfunding project?

I don't see the benefit of sharing any unfinished / work in progress information at this stage. I don't know what you think but to develop something like this costs at least a few million$ I need to make sure to my best it become commercially successful afterwards. And posting confidential information earlier has quite a few obvious risks as this is a public forum. Not saying I don't trust you but there is things called NDA and no one shares progress publically when developing a new product. (Unless crowdfunding, of course) This is very obvious to me.

I'm thinking quite differently - why would anyone thank your post because it even does not make any sense. ;)

I did mentioned to your curious before that I am NOT doing any marketing here. Even if every active member buys 2-3 it will not even make it to breakeven. So what do I get from you if I make it a real illusion? There is even no crowdfunding. Why there is so many conspiracy around? I'm not taking anything from you yet. And I don't understand why it now becomes VERY curious.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

To sum up:

- Information to public will be shared when it's ready, physically and commercially. To avoid some quite obvious risks. (Pichlo, a company don't share their business plan or R&D progress on public forum)

- I share some information with selected members I trust, and I tell publically that I shared because I want to let community know I haven't dead / give up / bankrupted yet. Work is still going on.

- There is no crowdfunding or whatsoever so I am not eligible of posting regular progress updates. If you think there is some conspiracy or message become curious, I'm sorry but I won't post anymore. (I don't know where it comes from, I'm not even attempt to ask anything.) ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

OK, Chen, you are the boss. Let's just say that "it is not how I would have done it". ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Chen, what is your opinion about a trackpoint either on the keyboard, or on the back side (if I remember correctly, the PSP or PS Vita had a trackpad on the back)? It could be something like the mechanical trackpoint of the GPD Pocket, or typical IBM laptops, or the optical trackpoint of the GPD Pocket 2. I heard mechanical trackpoints are better but I never tried optical.

GPD 1, mechanical
https://reho.st/0x0.st/sVtR.png

IBM, mechanical
https://reho.st/0x0.st/sVvi.png

GPD 2, optical
https://reho.st/0x0.st/sVth.png

HP Mini Wireless, optical + clickable
https://reho.st/0x0.st/sVvX.png

Left and right click buttons do not have to be as big as on the GPD 1, nor do they even need to be located next to the trackpoint, and the trackpoint itself could be placed elsewhere, as on the GPD 2 (third picture) to keep the keyboard layout unchanged. Actually having the trackpoint on the top right, next to resting position of the right thumb would even be better for a device designed for thumb typing like yours. Ways to avoid adding new buttons for left and right clicks could also be imagined, like using Vol+ and Vol- as mouse clicks when the keyboard is open (as long as the left index can reach Vol+ and Vol- easily), or key combinations to be done with the left thumb like Super+Z and Alt+X (those are based on your mod's layout, since both combinations could be done with just the left thumb and no other finger, but it would have to be adapted to the new keyboard of course).

If the device turns out to be a multiboot device capable of booting a full fledged Linux OS, like the Gemini is with Debian, then being able to use the keyboard and the mouse without plugging anything would be a key killer feature. One could use Debian in the subway, in the train, in bed, whereas needing an external mouse is impossible in those situations. A touch screen is of course mandatory for a phone, but it simply does not replace a mouse/trackpoint in terms of productivity, unless it comes with a stylus like the N900 (and a capacitive stylus will not offer the same accuracy). Many laptops now have touch screens, I had one myself on a 12" laptop, and I quickly realized I would never use it to replace a mouse.

The Gemini doesn't offer a trackpoint and that is one of its weaknesses. The GPD does, but first released pictures of the GPD 2 showed no trackpoint, and they caused a great concern among users on social networks, to the point that the company altered the official pictures to fit in the optical trackpoint and show that they will address this concern. This shows how much people interested in HWKB handheld devices care about having built-in cursor control, without requiring an external peripheral.

For LineageOS or Sailfish, the benefits would be limited, but for other OSes, this could be a game changer, with little or even no alteration to the keyboard layout and thickness.

[Edit] "Trackpoint" seems to be IBM's wording, "pointing stick" is the generic keyword.
https://deskthority.net/wiki/TrackPoint

[Edit 2] I would gladly trade any of these pointing sticks for a N900 stylus, but I doubt we can reach the same accuracy with a capacitive stylus, and the stylus holder of the N900 is not to be negliged: it makes the stylus always very easy to pull out or store in the blink of an eye, with just the right index.

[Edit 3] Or the brave-hearted can glue an Ergo Mini Touchpad on the back of their Livermorium I guess https://forum-images.hardware.fr/images/perso/ofou.gif:

https://reho.st/0x0.st/sVv8.png

http://talk.maemo.org/images/icons/icon3.gif :D

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

You do remember correctly, the PS Vita has a (rather large) trackpad on the back.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Oh, if it's a trackpad, it might be unreasonably large for a phone, I suppose it would significantly increase the thickness and bring too many changes to the case. However, maybe sticking a mechanical or optical trackpoint somewhere on the right of the keyboard would work with minimal alterations. I am assuming there would be abundant space in the keyboard half, since all keys could fit in the Moto Mod and this one will be bigger due to the screen size, with no particular need to increase the size of the keys (unlike the GPD or Gemini which are meant for full-hand typing).

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

The screen size bigger doesn't mean physical size bigger... ;)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Well, that is good news, and a nice teaser. :D

Yet, I am sure we could squeeze an optical trackpad somewhere in here, it seems to be basically the size of a single key:

https://reho.st/cdn.vox-cdn.com/thum..._motomods2.jpg

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

I think you posted incorrect image. That is not releted to the new prototype. That is old news image.

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

This is the Moto Mod, and Chen suggested that the keyboard for the prototype won't necessarily be bigger despite the bigger screen of the phone! But yeah, we don't know yet what the keyboard will look like, I'm just assuming it won't be smaller than the Moto Mod.

The photo is probably from an early version though, here's the final one I think, but the layout and size are similar:

https://reho.st/pbs.twimg.com/media/...AsYQI.jpg:orig

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Totally off topic, but how's progress on the keyboard so I can give you my hard earned €€€€ for it?

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Ok guys. I’m in total rant mode.

Leave now if you don’t want to bite the bull...

Let’s assume this project is real which I doubt given Chen’s release date dare back in the earlier days.
But hey. Let’s be realistic. Everyone is exited. Money is no issue. Of course project is real.

Stop trolling, Dave!

Ok. The project is real. For chen. Not for us. Are you still exited?

Dave! Stop trolling.

So what we know so far is almost nothing. We know basically that this is not a crowedfunding project or scam project. Check! Great! Now, who is suppose to fund this?

Dave! Stop scam rollin! Chen have all the issues covered.

So Chen have worked months on this and might have an idea of how to build the thing. Let’s say he is doing this for fun, on free time. Fine. That is cool. But no. That is not enough.

Dave. Stop asking the questions. Better to stick our heads in the sand.

So one day Chen might come up with detailed blueprints. That would be an amazing achievement! Just stop here, chen!

Dave! Don’t try to stop chen!

I’m not trying to stop chen. I’m trying to understand what’s going on here. One man or tiny team trying to build something. Without visible funding.

Dave. Chen is rich like a golden nugget. he can afford it!

I don’t think it’s feasable to invest too much money in a slippery slope like this. So if this project is real someone most be funding it. A device will not assable itself, shipped and sold in shop for free or by itself. So you are still saying this project is real?

Dave, the project is real simply because I’m saying it’s real!

Ok. So chen is planning to sell devices. Will the sale be done before or after the device is assembled? I hope it’s after. But who is funding it. Chen might be well connected for all I know. But he needs an assembly line. Parts and some luck.

Dave. Correct! I will buy this no matter what!

Let’s say chen manage to pull a rabbit out of the hat and release something. That would be an amazing achivment!

Yes, Dave. It would. I can’t wait until I have my fat hands on that sexy QWERTY slider.

So now we have a project, a device and something that can possibly work. Now we just need software. Android. No. IOS no. Sailfish. Possibly. Some other fishy oses. No.
So jolla need devices and chen need an OS. Still not seeing how that could workout unless some hackers doing some free scunk work for jolla. Are chen fine with that. To fund jolla with devices without real refund from investment.

Yes Dave. Sailfish and chenPhone is a perfect match..

Basically the only option. I can’t really see who will fund this project other then jolla. And yes the have an OS. Even do I’m not a huge fan of sailfish currently. It's the main road for this project.

Ok. The device is ready. The os is working. The year is 2020.

Yes, Dave. I can wait for years. Just give me a keyboard slider!

So now it’s only QWERTY! No awrtzy qwero or qwzaety. One size don’t fit all.

Dave, now you went to far!

Yes, I’m done. I just wants to understand how this project is to suppose to fly. Let’s assume I’m blind. I can’t see. I want to see how to make this a reality. GL chen. Please fill in the blanks! It's all dark here :)

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Who said he is doing it for fun on his free time? The device would be branded Livermorium Ltd, that's a company for profit, not a hobby. Companies with a good record who can claim a stand at the MWC in Barcelona, as well as recent positive media coverage like the Moto Mod mentioned in several big tech media, certainly have some capital and some credibility to attract additional investments.

This community here on TMO has long asked for a HWKB device, "we" even built our own as part of the TOH system thanks to Dirkvl and Kimmoli's efforts. Now, the GPD and the Gemini have clearly demonstrated that the market share for a high end HWKB handheld device could be big enough to be economically realistic. This might not be the most lucrative idea ever, but I would say it is at least very timely now that GPD and Gemini have re-ignited the love for HWKB handheld devices and drew attention on such projects, to the point that they are no longer seen as just hobbyist jokes. Maybe it was enough to attract third-party investments, or to be competitive in tech open calls, but at least it seems that Chen has been successful in fundraising for developing (and producing? No idea) his device without a crowdfunding campaign. I don't see why being so skeptical while no one is asked to pay anything before the device is demonstrated.

Also, I really doubt that Jolla has invested a penny in Chen's project, but this informal meeting with Cybette, as well as the teaser at the end of her tweet, tend to make me think that Jolla is not taking Chen as a scammer:

https://reho.st/0x0.st/sVgM.png
https://reho.st/0x0.st/sVge.png

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Hi Kabouik!
About the last part, I dont think cybette works for Jolla anymore (Red Hat now), so despites she still being part of the community, nothing directly related to Jolla in this meeting.

check her twitter signature: https://twitter.com/cybette where Jolla is still mentionned "prev".

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Wow...
and here I thought it was only a theory...

Dave999 has turned into a maemiac!
:D
:D
:D

aw Dave...
you made me laugh with the rebuttals ...
It reminds me of when I was a wee wee lad...
using two sock puppets ...one on either hand ...
and having them argue the finer points of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches..
hahaahaa...
ah good times...

Not to diminish either of the sides of argument you pose ...
they are both valid...

excepting one thing..you are off on...

when you said "A device will not assemble itself..."

I beg to differ..

Countless franchised Transformer cartoons and film prove you wrong...
:D

Excellent post Dave....
got mah popcorn...
you are on a roll my friend ...don't stop now...
hoping for act two...

https://media.giphy.com/media/GjYjLvGErsggg/giphy.gif

Re: The new QWERTY device project
 

Thanks, I was actually wondering about that too. I suppose her tweets are her own opinion anyway, so I was not considering that an official "Jolla approved seal", but it's still encouraging!