Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Oh well. 3G. I only know that I stopped using my 3G modem some 8 months ago, it was so extremely frustrating. I had maybe one day per 3 months without packet losses (as measured by ping). Packet losses completely kills services like Ajax, due to the TCP/IP stalling which is the consequence of packet losses. It would take forever to send a single mail from gmail, and sometimes I had to just give up after an hours frustration.

It worked OK in the very beginning, probably because I was one of the first ones in my area to even use 3G. Now, I just keep paying my monthly fee without using it (until the contract runs out).

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

A couple of details nobody is bringing up: a typical phone cannot consume the whole bandwidth of the tower, so you can have several phones maximizing their own bandwidth before you saturate the available bandwidth and start losing. And I'm not sure what's normal in terms of design standards, but it's quite possible to choke the backhaul before you run out of radio bandwidth, if more users are using data than expected.

No, it is the same; with some types of last-mile, that's not shared (though with cable, it is), but from your ISP's local node out, it is. And fiber costs money, too.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I used Google video chat over UMTS on my n810 tethered to my N75 very successfully from downtown Manhattan in the middle of the work day. I also used Skype and SIP (grandcentral) successfully. I think the existing infrastructure at least here in NYC could probably handle a small spike in 3G usage for VOIP. It definitely managed the spike after the iphone was introduced.
I, as many will, welcome our HSPA providing overlords into our tablet community.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Indeed, I don't know the exact bandwidth a 3G mast is able to deliver.

Then you don't get what you're paying for, and you can sue the 3G provider for that. If they advertise with 384 kbit upload, and you don't get 1/6 of that, its serious trouble. It is of no concern whether you're using VoIP or web browsing. They all cost quite some data.

The solution is simple: as demand increases you place more masts.

Thats true with any medium. A DSLAM has the very same issues.

No, it hurts their core business, and they don't wish to adapt. That is their fundamental problem with SIP. Else, they'd instead place more severe limits on data usage and max throughput. As you asserted, they don't do this; they put in contract its illegal to use VoIP.

Then you raise the price, and if your competitors don't, your customers go to your competitors. Last time I checked, the telcos were pretty damn profitable.

Yes, it is. Its called overbooking. A decent ISP states how high the overbooking is, and guarantees a minimum speed (usually far under the maximum speed though). Coincidentally, this is why business DSL is more expensive: the customer gets a guaranteed better overbooking (e.g. 1:10 instead of 1:25) at the DSLAM, and they get a SLA (although with my consumer line for every day my ADSL is down, I don't have to pay). With cable, its approx the same story, and some cable networks even have token ring. This is also why consumer grade (A)DSL is cheaper than T1/E1 because with those you have 1:1 overbooking.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Exactly, that is how medium sharing via spread spectrum degrades: "softly".


TA-t3: why don't you complain? The behaviour your are experiencing is not normal. Your provider cannot warranty "perfect service", but this is clearly unacceptable.

But for this you cannot sue: the contracts always say "up to 384 Kbits/s". Maybe you should read the legalize of typical data contracts: they offer you web access at speeds around DSL. Everything else is a gray zone. You can sue if you don't get any service (like TA-t3) or even clearly unacceptable quality (e.g. very slow). You can't if you don't get top service all the time, or if some applications either unusual or explicitly prohibited (voip) do not work. That is the basic reality in plain English.


I mean: it is quite interesting to discuss technicalities, but as far as the tablet is concerned, it all ends up the same: a tablet with voip over hsdpa is not a phone replacement. Either because the provider will block it (as they write in their contracts already) or because it will not work in practice when the cell gets busy (because lag increases to unacceptable levels).

Now we do not know how the cell part will be in the next tablet, but there are two choices:
-either it will be usable as a phone (not over data, but directly as a phone) and we basically have an iPhone competitor
-or it will be data only and we have an equivalent to current offers for the eeepc with an usb 3G modem bundle.

Neither one of these offers is very appealing to me at present, but there is certainly a market for them. But it is not a revolutionary concept as the first tablet was.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

to keep the leadership the time to market is key. Nokia was ahead of the market with n8x0 but the competition is moving fast.
To add HSDPA is a good idea to address the data mobile market, but time is critical. today many mobile operators are already ofering intenet mobile with offers like this http://www.sfr.fr/mobile/internet-3g-plus-portable.jspe where it is offered a EeePC with a 3G usb. As time passes by, this market will become more crowded and more difficult for n900.
many products like n900 will come to market in october/november and the novelty effect of n900 will be diluted...
Nokia should be fast...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Thank you for your valuable contributions in this thread, Jerome.

I welcome you to contribute to the ItT Data plans Wiki entry.

It saddens me you don't appear to agree telcos don't like VoIP because it hurts their core business, but OK. I still believe its important how much data is used for which purpose, and I do see that the upload might be an issue here.

Frankly, I do find 24/7 Internet connectivity revolutionary on such a small device although competitors are also providing this or about to provide. The NIT will be 'revolutionary' because Nokia innovates on many levels; also on software level.

As said in the article the cell is probably data only.

There are data plans which don't forbid VoIP (usually the 'laptop' data plans). Maybe not in Germany though.

Just like there are data plans which don't have a FUP and won't close you after you burned X GB. Again, perhaps not in Germany.

Its unwise to not read your contract before you sign it, and there might be contracts which do guarantee certain speeds instead of best effort (again, perhaps not in Germany). If you'd be interested in such I'd suggest to look at contracts aimed at businesses where you pay'd and get service similar to if you'd buy a business DSL contract. Whether these are worth it? Good question.

There are also ways to work around a SIP ban (from contract, or technically limited by blocking it or by lowering its priority using QoS). For example, one can use SSL, SSH, RDP, and other protocols to work around this. WiMAX is nice in this sense because it allow one to prioritze traffic based on protocols and it supports prioritizing SIP but a business also active as normal telco might actually give it lower priority...

If SIP wouldn't work well on N900 I'd just buy a Openmoko phone besides my N900, and would still at least try to use the N900 for international calls.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Oh, I certainly agree that telcos don't like VoIP because it hurts their core business, that's just plain obvious. I just wanted to explain that there are other, less obvious reasons.

I contributed to your ItT Data plans Wiki entry, but, frankly, there are about 50 different data plans available in Germany and they change almost every month. There are 4 networks and further resellers, you can different plans depending wether they are tied to a single device or not, tied to the operator portal, usable only around your home, all over Germany or include usage in foreign countries. There are plans by byte, by minute, with and without monthly charge, with and (rarely) without minimal duration... If I put them all (which I am not going to do, understandably), the wiki will more than double...

24/7 Internet connectivity a small device has been offered here for at least 3 years, but it depends what you call "Internet connectivity". Devices similar to the sidekick allow web browsing, but through a proxy, so that data usage is kept relatively low. Heck, even on the laptop plans you usually have a transparent proxy which will recompress pictures (you can request the original by clicking on the picture).

BTW: even Symbian phones allow 24/7 Internet connectivity. My E51 is configured to check my e-mail regularly, and allows sip as well. It has a quite usable browser. I use it to listen to Internet radio stations, etc... Internet connectivity was not the "revolutionary" part of the 770, the fact that it ran linux and thus was an open device was.

"Its unwise to not read your contract before you sign it"

Oh..., yes. :rolleyes: Certainly. And have it reread by an army of lawyers if you can...

"There are also ways to work around a SIP ban"

There are ways to work around any ban on the Internet. I sure know... (In practice just trying non standard ports is usually sufficient.)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

On the subject of US data plans, Verizon adds month-to-month: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080922/ny34211.html?.v=1

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

It's a shame that the BT on the Verizon branded devices don't work with the n8xx. My biggest disappointment at the moment.

and yes I am using the latest official OS version for my BB8830 (4.2.2.176).