Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Which one? Einstein's? That's only general relativity, and is only the least complex way to describe what we can observe, proving my point. Einstein's relativity has not been reconciled with quantum relativity, either. Also, physically defined as what exactly?

Either way, there is no proof whatsoever for any existence of causality outside of the mind (if it even exists inside the mind). Any other claim results in circular reasoning: causality exists because you can observe it, and you can observe causality because it exists. This doesn't mean causality can't exist independently of any observer, only that it would be foolish to assume that whatever you think is causality a) is causality, b) exists, independently or dependently. I do suggest to read up on the different theories on what causality could be like (foregoing whether it actually exists), and on how all of them suffer from unsolveable problems.

Just to make things clear, however: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX7CeTXoxyU

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

So causality as such is absolute (in this Reality); like entropy.
Of course freedom pertains to Reality in the way we perceive it (=reality); so the reality that is visible to us is not Reality as such. But does it really matter?

The defying point lies in the observer, not in the Reality / reality; and in the capability to take a (final) decision based on the knowledge of the reality around himself (which btw is not mandatory, at all, note, as the observer might refuse to make a choice in the first place). Freedom is this silver line.

reality (with lowercase r) might induce the observer to choose the wrong; or he/she might be able to make the right choice (out of sheer luck); it does not matter, the choice is what sets him/her free.
In fact, even assuming he/she knows the right choice, he/she might still choose the wrong one, for no reason. Freedom is a quantic effect; a Schrödringer-Cat.

Edit: And just to be clear : https://www.youtube.com/embed/UmzsWxPLIOo

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Again you take the independent existence of causality (in whichever way) for granted and even posit it as an absolute, but there is nothing to indicate this is the case (or not the case). All of the thought experiments like the 'brain in a vat' (which can easily be combined with infinite regress to say that 'Reality' itself is also an illusion of 'Reality2', and so on) are old and often mentioned only in passing and with a dismissive attitude, but they cannot be proven or disproven. We just choose to ignore them. Here's one juiceme might recognise:

"By your belief in granular singularities, you deny all movement - evolutionary or devolutionary. Belief fixes a granular universe and causes that universe to persist. Nothing can be allowed to change because that way your non-moving universe vanishes. But it moves of itself when you do not move. It evolves beyond you and is no longer accessible to you."

Also, the observer, in observing, chooses to observe. If he didn't, he wouldn't be an observer. But choice also sounds like it would depend on freedom, and freedom would depend on free will, but you're going to need a really broad definition of free will considering it's possible to accurately predict which choice a person is going to make based on their brain processes before you've even asked them the question.

I'm not sure what you mean by right and wrong.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

You say I believe in granular singularities; I never said that :).
You said it youself the observer chooses to observe. He might just close his eyes (read: ignore the reality), at which point it doesn't matter what he chooses (this won't make the Reality with capital R as in the "real" reality, not the perceived one, go away).
Denying existance of freedom in a universe (be it defined by singularities or not), implies none of your actions are any of your responsibility, and you are not accountable for them. Or in terms of entropy, being a system not generating any heat and just decaying into more stable states, without producing complexity, hence can't exist. Too easy!

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Nothing is happening here. You claim Reality exists without a shadow of a doubt, I say you shouldn't make absolute claims about something you do not and cannot know anything about, you rebut by claiming Reality exists without a shadow of a doubt. This is mixing science and scientism, taking a religious dogma (replace all instances of 'Reality' by 'god') to answer all questions.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

I have backed away from this discussion as it became too esoteric and I started losing track but... is that not what the entire discussion is all about? Whether there even is such a thing as "real" reality, independent of the observer. Our everyday intuition seems to confirm its existence but is it really objective or just a construct of our limited senses, processing power and perhaps frame of reference? After all, there are domains (quantum effects, more-that-four dimensional spaces, even plain old four-dimensional spaces but with a different configuration of time and space dimensions, such as inside black holes) where our everyday intuition fails spectacularly.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Yes I think its a separate discussion; at least (from my point) my discussion was about Freedom ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Ahh, but that's how it all started. By the assertion that "freedom" is an illusion, borne from implicit and explicit, known and unknown limitations.

Besides, I was replying to one specific sentence of yours, where you claim that there is an objective reality independent of the observer. That has nothing to do with freedom. If you want to bring freedom to it, then it can only be done in the negative. You do not "choose" to observe gravity, it has been imposed on you.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Doesnt that answer your question "does a reality exist"?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

So, what are you talking about? Freedom or reality? :D

To answer your question, I experience gravity therefore gravity exists for me. In other words, it exists in my reality. Is my reality objective? How do I know?

(As a proper scientific theory, it should be testable. The easiest test would be to find an observer that does not experience gravity the way I do. Are there, for example, subatomic particles that do not experience gravity? Who knows?)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Indeed, Herbert is one of my favourites. He has honed to perfection the way to present philosophical ideas in entertaining fiction which is evident in pretty much all his writings, not only in Dune series.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

I find Dune is good up to the fourth (?) book; then it just goes bonkers. Period. But it's awesome up to that point. Especially the spice emperor (my memory is failing me here). Come to think about it, its the opposite of Star Wars. And seeing which destiny Disney has given to it, I definitely like the fact that there's something else out there (aka Dune et co).

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Four+ books? I'm totally behind, I've only read the one :) Good one it was too. The film they made out of it was a complete rubbish. Just like Space Odyssey.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

From Frank Herbert there is:

Dune (1965)
Dune Messiah (1969)
Children of Dune (1976)
God Emperor of Dune (1981)
Heretics of Dune (1984)
Chapterhouse: Dune

source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(franchise)

So start reading ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Well the Dune film was directed by David Lynch so it is not your usual cup-of-tea... ever seen Eraserhead? :eek:

But honestly I did enjoy it, even though of course it did not live up to the book; when does a film ever do that?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

No, thanks. The first book was good, but it was written as a one-off, not the first in a series. I would only be disappointed.

The film was OK-ish, or would have been if I had seen it in 1985. Seeing it some 30 years later, I was somewhat less impressed. Too long, poor special effects, too arty-farty, too touchy-feely. I remember the book more to the point. Just like the other book/film pair I mentioned before ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

I think I remember reading at least the second book (which is fairly short compared to all the others) was actually supposed to be part of the first, but would have made it too long.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Also, Lynch was forced to quite cut it out, which actually made him quite mad and disliking the work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_(film)#Editing . The editing had, on the one hand, made the movie perhaps more accessible, but, on the other, it's a looong and hard book which is (I would guess?) hard to put on the screen, and this doesn't become any easier if you need to remove about an hour compared to your original plan.

Anyways, I guess we will see another try sometime soon https://omegaunderground.com/2018/03...ves-new-movie/ .

PS: oh, I didn't know that Villeneuve will do it in 2 parts, but it does make sense to me.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Oh dear. It seems I may have offended a sentiment or two. But then, I did not like Interstellar either, despite glowing reviews and endorsements ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

interstellar is the classic "modern" scifi disappointment, in which they construct a fully plausible story and then save the day with a delusional deus ex machina in the end, cause theres no alternative. boring. pity as it was intriguing until (almost) the end.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Can we use this thread to discuss the topic of it title "Rostelecom investment in Jolla" please?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

I tried! What's your opinion on the situation?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Oh, not on this side...

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Well I don't think that is necessary really.
I'd rather keep to the reality-of-reality topic, much more interesting.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Well, than I think it makes sense to change the thread title to something like "The philosophical view on the world, reality, freedom of choice and at some point on Rostelecoms investment in Jolla" :p

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

FWIW, it seems like we have exhausted all that can be possibly said on "Rostelecom investment in Jolla". The options are, currently, either to keep this thread alive by discussing reality of reality, with a hope that somehow, in the future, a new reality pops up closer to the nominal thread topic, or to close this thread ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Im all for less threads!

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

More is less. We obviosly need More threads to get less threads. Is that logic to advance for you? Then create a new thread.

Is the campaign still in progress or just sleep walking or simply dead?

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Actually, less is more ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

/* cut the beginning of the quote, although it was spot on. Now, when the thread is back on track, got finally into it and found the message that I wanted to reply to for some time. */

Now, if you sprinkle your concerns with the closed source components that happen to be dealing with your input (keyboard), communication with your accounts, I am not sure you need that much telemetry to get lots of data regarding the users. And that's a part where owners may play a decisive role.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

In what is perhaps the most ironic turn of events thus far, the Russian telecom watchdog Roskomnadzor has apparently blocked all access to Jolla websites.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

they blocked many things. google.com doesn't work here, for example. captcha's and blogs on blogspot don't load, too

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

The question between the roles of Jolla Ltd. HK and Jolla Oy FI was still opened the last time I checked, and so is the impact of Rostelecom which seems involved more in Jolla Ltd (not clear).

While at fossnorth18, Cybette has taken the following picture of a presentation by James Noori from Jolla:
https://twitter.com/cybette/status/988406967973621761

We can read "Jolla Ltd develops and licenses Sailfish OS", then that they have offices in Helsinki, Tampere and HK.
So on one hand they explicitely mention Jolla *Ltd*, not Oy. But on the other hand they say they have offices in Finland, where it should be Jolla Oy...

The more they talk, the less clear it is about who does or owns what... ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Thanks, nice to know I'm not the only one thinking it.

Exactly. Also even for the open source components, as long as everyone is using packages and binaries built by Jolla, "Jolla has root". You really have to trust your distro maintainer.

There are some things I don't like about Purism's approach to the software for the librem5, but I expect basing their distro on Debian makes it much easier for third parties to build their OS starting from a trusted base provided by someone else, so you wouldn't have to build absolutely everything - you could conceivably build " just" the UI parts from source. Mer seems to be a bit of a clusterf*ck of old packages based on the GPLv2 vs GPLv3 thing, and where do you get a mer image from if you don't trust Jolla? Much shorter list.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Legally, it is the exact same.
Osakeyhtiö, abbreviated to Oy, is the Finnish name for a limited company.

Maybe they use Oy for patriotic reason or simply to make clear they mean the FI office and Ltd. when refered to HK? I do not care since it was stated that it is at least two seperate companies. From the official legal footer on website and emails they use Ltd. also for FI.
Also note, we have two names, so two companies, Jolla Ltd. and Jolla Asia Ltd, of which Rostelecom now is the grand sharehodler.

Jolla Ltd
Kalevantie 2
33100 Tampere
Finland

Jolla Ltd
Jolla c/o Weplus Europe Oy
Tallberginkatu 1 C 135, 2nd floor
00180 Helsinki
Finland

Jolla Asia Ltd
Cyberport 1
100 Cyberport Road
Hong Kong

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Indeed, now that you point it, that would make sense.

Still not answering the question which is responsible of what, but at least the names make sense for me now ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Are you sure, and do you have a reference for that?

I am asking, because Jolla (e.g. James Noori lately) consistently depicted Jolla FI = Jolla Oy = Jolla Ltd to be a different legal entity than Jolla HK = Jolla Asia Ltd.
Some more evidence evidence exists, that such a separation makes sense and is the way it is implemented.

BTW, Jolla Helsinki was always described to be just an office in Helsinki (apparently of Jolla FI).

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

If the all-knowing Trash Heap is right, absolutely!
Thanks for asking and destroying my attempt to sound competent by copying the first sentence from a wikipedia article :D :rolleyes:

From personal experience, i know that the german GmbH is often announced as Ltd. to foreigners so they comprehend the implications of the legal relationship instead of confusing them with local company terms.

This is not a legal advice, consult your attorney for further clarification and legal implications :cool:

EDIt:
The difference between countries is mainly the amount of capital you have to put upfront to create this legal entity. Mainly as safety buffer to pay for are major failure.
In germany it is at least 25000€, the more the higher the crdibility against big customers and debitors.
England is famous for the 1 Pound Ltd. you can click yourself online and wait for the paperwork to arrive ;)

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

Oh, this seems to be a pretty misunderstanding:

• Sure, "Oy", "Ltd.", "GmbH" etc. are similar legal forms in different jurisdictions.
• "Jolla Oy" (in Tampere, Finland) and "Jolla Ltd." (Hong Kong) are different legal entities (as you also pointed out, already), but their exact relationship is unclear.

But unfortunately there seems to be no fresh information on the proportions of shares held in "Jolla Oy (FI)" and / or "Jolla Ltd. (HK)" beyond what has been discussed on TJC (see also bullet list in comment to next answer there).

I originally assumed, that your post #115 was not solely about the different names for similar legal forms in different jurisdictions.

Re: Rostelecom investment in Jolla
 

In the risk of being accused of off-topicing the thread again...

I have noticed a (to me, a positive) trend. The "leave Jolla alone, they are saints, our saviours, who can do nothing wrong" camp has diminished to practically zero. Now pretty much everyone is displaying a healthy level of scepticism and caution. Something I've been calling for for years but was always shouted down.

Or is it just here on TMO? Is TJC still the bastion of religious fanatism? I do not go there any more, the environment was way too hostile to my liking.