Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

To each his own.

I realize that's a silly concept to anyone convinced their personal opinions and experience are universal canon, so I apologize to anyone I've shocked with that bold declaration.

:D

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I love this thread - always a good idea to consolidate the ranting :)

I got my n800 as a Christmas present from my wife and so far its been the most tech fun Ive had since trying to configure X11 on Slackware 15 odd years ago.

<rant>

I've flashed Os2008 (at least 4 times - corrupt download, wrong version, etc.), locked the n800 in the refrigerator half a dozen times to get it to pair with my phone (might not be a Nokia issue), hacksawed a mini-A usb cable so I can connect flash drives, bought a stereo A2DP bluetooth transmitter so I can hear decent audio, spent 4 hours trying to set up scratchbox on Xubuntu (got it working in the end), bought 2 large SD cards so I had space for movies, tried and failed to get decent video playback in Media Player, installed then reinstalled Media Converter, copied the movies over, recoded them overnight and copied them back again, bought and paired an iGo bluetooth keyboard that I have nowhere to actually use, installed VPNC got it working with wifi but apparently it doesn't work with DUN (yet), rdesktop'd into work to find I couldn't type anything (didnt try the keyboard). I'm currently teetering on booting from MMC and installing Penguin Bait's KDE.

Fun, fun, fun - at least for me ;) but come on what can you actually use this thing for? I see two huge problems with the n800:

1) Form factor - how are you supposed to hold this thing? I try to keep it in my left hand and use the stylus with the right but it seems really difficult to use the Dpad and buttons one handed and its a pain to keep pulling the stylus in and out. Landscape mode sucks - you look like a dork standing in the bus queue with this thing in landscape mode - why no portrait? I like browsing full width as well, but a rotate button would be much more useful that zooming. It doesnt fit in my pocket well and there doesnt seem to be a screen lock so all the applets move around on every journey.

2) Scratchbox + Matchbox - OMG amazing!! I have never seen such a marvelously useless combination of geeky technology. It takes hours to install and gigabytes of disk space, or a huge VM download and either allow vmware to take over your system or use qemu and flaky cut'n paste. Apps can be built from source and because Maemo is debian like it only takes a moderate amount of frustration to get things to compile - woohoo! erm.. well then there is the issue that there really aren't any Linux apps that work out the box with Matchbox or Hildon input and beyond a handful like microb, xournal (still havent got it to install), and maemo mapper and you probably wouldnt want the others anyway. Seriously gigabytes of system scripts, headers, libraries? What are you thinking Nokia? You need a simplified dev environment that runs on the n8x00 and lets people build useful apps. Geez - I get at least Flash is an option now. Processor not powerful enough, not enough RAM for gcc, not enough storage? I dont think so.

</rant>

I'd let it all slide if there was a decent arkanoid or invaders game to leverage landscape mode :D

Edit: oooo... I forgot to mention the repository fun - but that probably deserves a thread of its own.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I bought my Internet tablet to view websites that i normally view on the laptop, without having to use the laptop.

I let my computer do other tasks and use my tablet solely for my internet browsing, email and chatting.

They implimented a browser that supports full web browsing and created a large screen to view it one, so assume they intended it to be used for the full internet experieance.

Its always nice to have an out of box experience that allows the use of the basic advertised functions without having to search first. The extras and the special stuff can be researched. The fact that you have newbies coming here to air their views shows that at least they did a lil reserch to find the place and are seeking advice from those in the know here. Dont shoot them down for it.

I use my N800 as my primary mobile media player...video and audio.

My mobile phone has its duties and is totally different from my N800.

We all have different uses for these devices, generalisations wont help fix its ills. There is a common ground and that must be major improvements on the basic functions and software support of these devices. It all well and good pointimg people to google and giving them a xterm script or two to punch out, its helps them learn abit about the inner workings, but honestly most wont want to hear of it and would require a less hassling approach to things. Making things more user frindly and mainstream cant be a bad thing.......even the most elitist of the bunch must agree.

Anyway, its all good dialogue and i hope those that have the power to make changes are reading up on everything here and elsewhere. Its all good (except the smartasses and trolls :P).

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Ack, as Senior Smartass maybe I shouldn't comment. :p

But you bring up many good points bazanime. Yet as you ask elders to go easy on the newcomers, it's only fair for newcomers to correspondingly show respect to their tablet elders. ;) The common barging-in-and-screaming "the tablet is useless/sucks/fails/etc and you people are idiots" just polarizes people needlessly.

Can't smartasses and screamers just get along?

:D

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

i.e. Trolls. :rolleyes:


Constructive criticism is always key.

You are a tolerated smartass here it seems, so you're exempt. Maybe you earned your wings (forked tongue) at some point.:)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Tolerated by few, burned in effigy by many.

I was the lucky product quality engineer for the N800 when it launched in the US. Fun times. Yeah, I earned a wing or two. And a handful of N800s for fortunate friends and family.

Welcome to the forums.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I'm guessing you wear cargo pants and don't have bluetooth stereo headphones? ;)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I've also had my N800 for a year and am very happy with it.

vvaz, or whatever your name is, what's up with you? The comment about the fm radio is totally wrong, and then you say something about a 5-stage plan later, that doesn't explain anything to me.

And your comment about American FM radio is completely misinformed. There is lots of decent stuff on FM here. For just one tiny example, the NPR public radio chain is chock-full of great stuff. If you don't believe me, find my favorite NPR station, KCRW, on your Internet radio. It is also available on the FM radio, if you are lucky and live in the US.

And there is lots of other decent stuff, and even more junk. In Los Angeles, a big city in the west of the US, there are even decent rock stations. Some people might like the Pacifica chain, which once was a great bunch of stations.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Oh you were huh??? Where can i get one of those effigies then?:D

i kid i kid!!

Always nice to get insight from an old soldier that has been in the trenches and seen the horrors first hand. Shame the war aint over tho, but at least its not as bloody as OS2007.


I like my N800, but i HATE the rss reader and bookmarks apps. Mowing the lawn is a chore enough. Kinetic scrolling is king and sorely needed.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Texrat, I never knew your actual job title before.

This probably isn't the right place to ask it, but what do you think of all these weird battery problems, or "my N810 won't turn on, or I have to press the power bar a special way, or I have to leave it turned off for exactly three minutes to turn it on" and other weird threads? I originally thought it was just a bunch of newbie crazies, but there have been so many of those comments that I now wonder, even though I have never had the whisper of a problem of a similar nature.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Now, now, those were hardware & software design decisions, not quality control issues.

Raz him for the SD corruption bug.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I am aware of that. Evolution of OS2007 is the best proof. Also hardware changes in 770->N800->N810 are good example of that (even I don't agree with some of them ;) ). But in transition OS2007->OS2008 some lessons were unlearned. Also organizational machine screwed it big time.

I don't view N800 only negatively. It read itt for long time before I bought it. I knew what expect and those needs are fullfilled. Almost all recreational web browsing I am doing now on N800. Desktop is left only for work, mail, usenet. I am using N800 to take notes on meetings and in libraries. With help of web I was able to create half-decent Polish keyboard(s).

But with all those messing I feel IT is just few steps and some polish ;) from really good, universal tool:

- USB host, with cheap SD cards it could be great databank for amateur photography (especially N800 with two slots) + all other benefits like el cheapo keyboards, pendrives, etc.
- bugs in keyboard layout and lack of documentation for advanced features
- hardware/software bugs - poweroff enigma...

These are only things which are bugging me on really daily basis.
-

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Couldn't agree more, so I'll include a URL slasdot scripts. Personally I think you also need to install addblock plus. Since add servers are typically slow, and tend to deliver non-standard code. In a full size system you can have the programs to correct this but the IT is too slow. It's amazing how much removing adds improves the look and feel of the net. [ I'll finish this later problemm at aa DC]

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

<wakes up from drugs-induced, fever-ridden daze>

Huh?


<gently slides back into blessed unconsciousness>

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Rant (snipped to save bandwidth)

Sounds to me like you have a defective IT. take it back and get a replacement. !!!

Bod.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

This is a joke, right?

Do you really have a problem understanding what the N800 can be used for? Just because you flashed the firmware (as we all did), and installed many apps (some more than once as we all did), you truly can't see beyond that? Do you need some killer apps pointed out to you? Mobile VOIP, GPS, MP3, emails, ebook reader, pocket pdf reader, pocket games, scientific calculator and lots more.

Okay, the Media Player in OS2007 was worthless for videos but mplayer was there to fill-in.

I was looking at buying a UTstarcom F3000 WiFi VoIP Phone from VOIPsupply (or equiv.) when I determined the N800 was close to the same price and offered the WiFi SIP phone functionality (plus Skype) and a couple dozen other functions all in the same device. There was no question in my mind that the N800 was worth every penny I paid.

Sure the OS2008 release thing and the repository troubles were a bumpy few days. Those of us who had a clue helped each other to get the OS firmware with our own servers and then put the thing in a drawer for a few days until the repositories recovered.

But now that the cpu is @ 400mhz and my bluetooth headsets works in VOIP calls, and YouTube videos play nicely, and the USB port works in Host Mode, my N800 is "over the top" with regard what it can be used for.

I can see how someone who wasn't considering a UTStarcom WiFi VOIP phone (or NETGEAR SPH101, or Linksys WIP320, or BELKIN F1PP000GN) would not see things as a clear slam dunk as I did. If you are not a Skype or Gizmo user or (insert SIP provider here), and didn't use Meamo Mapper, FBReader, FREE42, Mplayer etc. what did you buy this for in the first place?

For all the people who complain that the N800 is a buggy beta product unfit for the consumer market, I don't feel those people have much perspective. Tell me what computer product sold to consumers is defect free. Didn't these people ever use DOS versions 1 &2, Windows versions 1 & 2, Windows 95?, 98? WindowsME (oh WinME was sooo bad), even linux was buggy and incomplete. Don't these people buy brand new cars that have design defects and manufacturing defects (and for big money)? Many people purchased N800's recently for ~$220, that is very little money for all the functionality they got. There are all kinds of laptop computers sold with design defects, and big screen TVs that die prematurely due to design defects. These products cost many times what a N800 costs. All of these examples are consumer products which are unworthy but people still purchase Fords, Chryslers, Dell, Toshiba, Gateway, Compaq, and Microsoft products year after year. I often joked that if Microsoft built cars or airplanes that the planet would be immensely littered with wreckage and dead bodies.....it isn't really a joke. Bluescreen of death.

The N800 and Maemo platform may not be perfect, but they are great, especially at the recent price point. If all you use it for is mobile VOIP and as an MP3 player it is worth $200. That is how I feel.

EDIT: Can someone tell me if FREE42 is available for OS2008? I miss it, since upgrading the OS.
UPDATE: I have FREE42 again... I had to install the N810 version from Tajuma.com (even though my IT is the N800).

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

That's the one I use for slashdot instead of the main site when on the tablet. Faster, with more info per page, works perfectly with optimized view on, and it works perfectly fine also with a slow GPRS connection. Not so good if you like to read more than 5 comments (and if they could have filtered out the 'Funny' comments then the signal-to-noise ratio would have been better as far as comments are concerned).

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I've only seen scattered posts and haven't experienced those issues on my preproduction N810, so it would be difficult to speculate. I also have to be careful about uninformed speculation anyway. But I do wonder if the common element is not the battery itself. Too bad they're so expensive... that probably prohibits a lot of user testing...

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

It's gonna sound rude again, but anyone who asks "what do you use this thing for?" may have been better off not buying one in the first place.

I'm always asking "what ELSE can I use it for?"

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Nicely said. My mind was blown recently when I experienced my first SSH session into my tablet from my Ubuntu server. It was literally like an epiphany occurred. Exploring various aspects of the tablet with help from these forums is now my hobby. I even find real uses for the various things I'm trying out too (e.g. SSH, Host mode, etc). I'm simply amazed at the stuff I can do with a pocket device that's a few hundred bucks.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Maybe the "Internet Tablet" is no longer the correct term to describe this device... I'd say it is "Pocket Computer", as that's what it really is. (With emphasis on internet connectivity and applications.)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Heh. You remember my Nokia blog on that subject, Mara? I continue to get pushback on that notion... but I'm with you.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I love the N810. But:

Wrong.

From the perspective of 48 years of programming, and as a personal computer software publisher starting in 1980, I think you're mixing up examples at all stages of consumer polish. DOS and core linux were products for experimenters and hobbyists, not consumers.

What we're discussing here is whether the N8x0, in its current state, is a DOS or a Windows 95. Is it a product for hobbyists and software professionals, or is it ready for savvy consumers who don't do command line?

The issue isn't just bugs, it's the overall user experience. IMO the more serious problem is the level of polish on the software.

I see all those killer apps now.

I didn't see them when I opened the box and fired up my N810 two long weeks ago. I had to discover this online community, use the search function, learn about the alternate repository workaround, and install a bunch of apps, some of which (like claws-mail) replace placeholder apps that don't give the user much functionality.

I had to figure out how to tweak some features in the Nokia-supplied software that had inconsistent UIs, limited functionality, and no documentation other than help windows that could only be popped up once the menu item was discovered.

And because I'm not comfortable hacking at the linux command level, I am handcuffed in realizing more of the capabilities of the unit.

So - does this sound like a product ready for the consumer market?

It is a product for the hobbyist, the early adopter, and the linux hacker.

What excites and frustrates a lot of us is that with a good level of attention paid to polishing little details in the user interface, and filling out some of the features that are available but over-limited, it could be a killer consumer product.

That IMO is the most important point of this thread.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Nokia readily acknowledges this.

And the next device out of the gate (Wimax tablet) probably won't excite too many people... but brace yourselves for iteration number 5. :D

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

48 years of programming, but uncomfortable at a command line prompt. How sad.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

One of the things that bother me the most is the new OS2008. It represents a step ahead, mainly in terms of speed and UI, no doubt about, but IMO it is unacceptable they can release a "final" OS version with majors, evidents signs of a beta distribution: the bouncing keyboard issue, the finger keyboard issue, the context menu issue, the lack of lock function for home screen applets, etc. How are we to interpret this? Lack of professionalism? I love my N800, and I'm enjoying it, but that doesn't mean I cannot point some negatives aspects. As a "normal" user (not a Linux expert user), I care about this because I want to see the users community growing more and more, that's the best way to see more and better apps, as a "drone" I am :) regarding apps development.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I keep seeing complaints about this, but I've never had a desktop applet move when I didn't want it to in OS2008. I've read that the method of scrolling in GPE Summary conflicts with moving applets. Is that the problem everyone who complains about this is having? If so, is redesigning GPE Summary a possible solution?

Please understand this isn't an attempt to shift blame from Nokia to the GPE developers. Enough people here seem ready to break out the torches and pitchforks that I believe there is some sort of problem. I've simply never seen it, possibly because I don't use GPE Summary.

If GPE Summary isn't the only source of the problem, then what in tarnation are folks doing with their desktops to make their applets skitter all over the place?

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

The previous OS locked the applets by default. People complained. Maemo changed it.

next?

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

My complaint is not that the applets move when I don't want them to, this has never happened, but rather to size and postion them to where I want them to be.

The old Os2007 way made it easy to arrange them, the new Os2008 makes it a nightmare.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Maybe because GPE Summary is the only applet that has a scrolling bar on it..I guess :confused:

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

so everything that has been said beforehand is now null and void? nokia dont need to do a thing? cos now this is being hijacked by backpating and choir.

tthere are real issues her that are being hilighted. dont take one misguided comment and base a whole retort on it, thus stifling the serious comments.

also, quit comparing to ms. i know its hard for the linux community take a stab or two, but we arent talking about them now. doesnt help to make comments like "if u dont like it gtfo and go unhappy with winmo"......it doesnt help at all.


lets be civil about this and get back on point.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Not sad. Actually I am much happier now than back in the day, when I would spend weeks at a time on a 16 hour a day coding jag.

I could get very comfortable doing all the Unix/linux command line stuff again, as I was in 1975 when I wrote the first full screen editor for Unix. Before your time, no doubt.

It's just that there are only so many hours in the day, and at this point in my life I have other priorities for them than climbing the learning curve and hacking around in yet another system environment, even one I knew in its original incarnation.

It's already taken more hours than it should have to get my N810 to realize its current fraction of its potential. (And I hope that gets the conversation back on substance.)

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

This addresses my greatest frustration with the tablet, and I mentioned it in the x86 v. ARM thread. The development environment is a hassle, so much so that I haven't even bothered to set it up for the 2008 OS.

Under 2007 I had my tablet running with fvwm and could launch and run any of the apps on the tablet with multiple 'windows.' I could simply move between them to access various apps. I also was able to port any x11 program to my system without 'Hildonizing' it.

However, two things were a problem.

The first was that the web browser does not run like any of the other apps and would not run properly in another window manager AND no other suitable web browser could be ported to the n800.

The second problem, and far more frustrating to me, was the fact that Nokia released the source code for the system under the GPL but IT WAS CORRUPTED AND WAS UNCOMPILABLE. I mentioned this in the developers thread. The modified the window code in order to make sure no pop up windows were blocking, but that caused problems with menus under different window managers.

The n800 is a great little pocket computer, but it is most limited to me because of these issues.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Aww, nuts. Like I said, I'm not denying there's a problem. I simply have not had it happen to me, and I was curious as to what others were seeing.

I only brought up the possibility of redesigning GPE Summary--were it the applet that caused the most trouble--because even if the Maemo developers agree with the need for locking applets, it'll likely be several months before Nokia releases another firmware update that might include a fix. I don't follow GPE's development, but I imagine it has to move faster than Maemo's.

Updating third party software to work around deficiencies in a platform isn't unusual, nor is it pretending the deficiencies aren't there. It's simply getting a working solution out to users while you yell at the platform developers.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

As far as I can remember, I was able to arrange the applets and then, accepting the design, lock them. I always prefers freedom of choice, so better would be lock/unlock option. Common sense.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I actually agree. I can't put anything where I want it without significant, frustrating effort.

Seems we traded one devil for another. Back to the drawing board!

Again, agreed. Seems the cure was worse than the cause!

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Hey, that works 2 ways, ya know!

I hate those choirs with torches and pitchforks...

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Sometimes I wake up the tablet by touching the screen with my finger. Sometimes I pick it up and inadvertently touch the screen. Sometimes I tap an applet and the stylus skids. Maybe I've gotten used to it, but my applets don't move as often as they used to. But it still happens.

I know, I know:

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."
Doctor: "Then don't do that."

But if some people, especially new users, do it, then it does drag down the user experience.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

I think there are two issues to the current home applet problems:

* Interacting with elements in an applet often cause the applet to move instead (like GPE which has a scrollbar)

* Accidental input, such as a tap on an item being registered as a drag instead

I don't know who complained about the lock mode -- I preferred it, actually -- but I totally agree with Rebski. It's why something as common as accidental input becomes a problem, because it's irritating to try to fix the placement/size of the applet if the system won't take your settings exactly.

FWIW, the original lock problems had to do with the model of editing and committing/canceling. It would have better to have made locked-or-unlocked a selectable state of the Home screen at all times, just like the browser's "Fit width to view" setting.

Re: Big-time Rant of the N800
 

Hm, I have yet to upgrade to OS2008.. I'll wait for the next release. But from what I read above the new desktop applet adjustment mechanism sounds awful.. If people have complained about the locked-down applets I really wonder what they were complaining about - it was of course perfectly possible (and very easy) to manipulate the applets also in OS2007 (the only issue I have with it is that in particular the Nokia-provided applets can't be size-reduced any way I want).

So, I agree with texrat, bilofsky and akd. And I also sometimes wake up the tablet exactly as bilofsky described above.