Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

I don't get all the hate. I, for one, have been WAITING for Silverlight to kick Adobe in the pants. Microsoft is at least willing to treat us like first class citizens. Read Miguel's blog. MS is giving Novel access to a lot of stuff in order to create an unencumbered feature parity .NET environment (mono), part of which is a completely free Silverlight implementation (Moonlight).

Even if you don't want software that was inspired by MS on your tablet you should at least be smart enough to realize that competition drives innovation. The introduction of a viable flash competitor should motivate Adobe to get off its bum and improve flash.

This is a win-win.

</rant>

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

No, that is not necessarily the case. One only need to look at how MS has (mis-)treated established protocol and file format standards, such as NetBIOS, HTML, and CSS (...and, those are just the ones I've had direct experience using, where MS's "implementation" of the standard completely broke everything except MS products. Now, you want to hand them another standard to bastardize?? Fine. Just don't be surprised when the MS product line is the only one that works with the "standard" produced by the MS product.


footnotes, for those interested:

1) The only NetBIOS call implemented in the "Microsoft Networking for Novell Networks" was the (positive) response to the "is netbios installed/operational" call. MSFNN responded to that call with affirmation that the complete NetBIOS suite was enabled. As such, you couldn't use any application that actually -depended- on NetBIOS, unless you replaced the MNFNN drivers with Novell's Client32 for Microsoft Windows" (which properly implemented NetBIOS). Microsoft didn't see this as an issue, because it helped them drive Novell (the networking leader, at the time) nearly out of the business.

2) HTML pages created in MS FrontPage would look fine in IE, but not render properly in Netscape (which was, at the time, the leading web browsing software [and, by a long shot! IE was a distant 4th!!]). MS pretended it must be a Netscape problem (and not a FrontPage problem), because things looked just fine in their browser, IE. It turns out that FrontPage was forgetting to put </table> tags at the end of their tables, and rather than fix that, they patched IE to "assume" the end of the table and render the page anyway. Netscape (and every other sane HTML browser/interpreter!) simply followed the HTML specifications, which clearly state that any incomplete container (such as, for instance, a table) should be ignored and not rendered. Well, you see who won that battle, don't you?

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

thing is i think that microsoft see that they can no longer keep fighting on the app and os level, so they are moving to other areas and trying to shore up a controlling share in services and frameworks, stuff that can be server side rather then client side (a area in rapid commoditisation, or something like that).

thing is that they can use their existing market share in os and apps to leverage this, as they can more or less guarantee that if people keep their systems up to date (thanks to autopatching) they can roll out stuff like silverlight to all platforms by defining it as a critical update.

then they can say that for the webpages out there it will just work when a user browse/use a silverlight based page/service.

also, one can use the iis server and visual studio.net to have a integrated package for development and deployment. and as .net gets more languages under its belt, anyone that know a .net supported language can write a silverlight service.

i would not be surprised if microsoft finds a way to leverage xna for rapid game deployment on the iphone and ipod, now that they have a foothold with the exchange sync.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

The difference here is that the NIT isn't a standard. It's a platform. (and you left Kerberos out of the important standards that MS sought to trash through embrace&extend)

It's more comparable to the presence of MS applications and frameworks on a Mac. MS doesn't destabilize nor undermine the Mac by having apps on it. It just gives Mac users choices to have those apps supported on a Mac. That might be different if the platform where to come to DEPEND upon the MS frameworks and apps (and that was a problem for the Mac in the past, where they desperately needed MS to keep developing Office for the Mac), but as long as it's optional, and there are vigorously developed alternatives, it's not a problem.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

ooxml...

can someone say wolf in sheeps clothing?

and lets not for one moment think apple is any better. iirc they didnt put odf support into their recent office pack...

still, i cant help worry about what ibm and sun is planning, ones their assistance of open source have brought MS out of the way (it will not fall, not by a long shot)...

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

C128, and Kaypros, before we ever got an IBM, and really IBM deserves more credit for the IBM PC than MS; they got MS to write an OS after they had trouble getting anyone else too, but it was their project, not MS,
Really, though, as far as the commoditized IBM-PC compatible system, which I assume is the topic here, you can thank Phoenix for the BIOS!

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

and what a time for lawyers that was...

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Aha! but MS didn't write MS-DOS, either! They co-opted some ground-breaking work done by others (namely, Digital Research), and called it their own.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

I know, but didn't want to get bogged down in details that would inspire demands for substantiation; my point was simply that credit belongs elsewhere b/c MS did nothing important (yes, stealing software can be important).

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

While I can appreciate both sides of the coin here, I don't know I understand what all of the fuss is. If you don't want it, don't install it. For those of us who are used to blocking, disabling and even avoiding websites utilizing technologies and languages we dislike can continue to do so. Nothing to see here.

But really, the IT needs to support as much as possible. The reason I got my N810 was BECAUSE it supported Flash better than most hand held devices in addition to all of the other wonderful stuff I wanted it to do. By making this and future Nokia IT devices more popular, your development efforts will actually be put to a wider spread usage. Nokia will keep putting them out. and some of you can continue to NOT use things like Flash or Silverlight.

Doesn't everyone win here?

BTW, for those of you who vaguely remember where I work, Adobe came in and you can tell they are sharting themselves over Silverlight. Their next incarnation of streaming will include the ability to gracefully change bitrates on the fly, much like Move Networks flash playback mashup.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

dubiousmike --

If you don't "understand what all the fuss is", then I respectfully submit that you haven't fully read or do not fully appreciate what has been said here. Without trying to sound flippant, one adage comes immediately to mind:

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

When MS gets involved in something, there is an ulterior motive in play. ...and, with rare (if any!) exception, it does not bode well for the maintenance of (industry) standards. It is, most decidedly, not a good thing when MS decides to get involved.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

I agree completely. Microsoft is the textbook example of a company using its monopoly to create its own twisted "standards" with which only their own software works half-decently with. Microsoft is the bane of interoperability, and time-proven corrupter of standards. Just look at the purposely misleadingly named OOXML, a perversion of ODF, MS SQL a proprietary version of MySQL, and C# a Windows-only version of C++.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

To those still fearing Microsoft domination, I have two words:

Microsoft Bob.

Best post on the subject IMO.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

The bottom line is that whether they adapt to the standards you want them to or not, adding new consumer friendly technology support into the ITs will make them more usable to the average Joe and thus seeing Nokia sell more of them. The great thing about a tablet is that you can decide what you want on it and what you don't. Why is choice a bad thing? If you don't like Silverlight, don't use it. If you don't want to make use of sites and content that uses Silverlight, then don't.

Basically, your response to me is that your opinion is that you don't like Microsoft products, their style of coding and the same business tactics that most companies try and fail at. While that's your opinion, it still doesn't mean that having the choice to use it on a tablet is bad.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Yes. Like you can choose to have a Novell fileserver, or choose to have Netscape as your default (and only) browser, today.

See... it's not the presence of a choice that bothers me -- it's the inevitable lack of choice once MS gets their claws sunk in enough, further down the road.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

I hope Silverlight comes soon... mlb.com has switched to Silverlight from Flash, so if you want to watch the live games on your IT, you need Silverlight.

And they even flubbed up audio streaming... it's an mms/asx Windows Media stream, and I am having no luck whatsoever getting it to work on my tablet. :(

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Methinks some do protest too much.

Microsoft has failed at global domination more often than they have succeeded. Computing history is littered with their errors (they almost slept through the advent of the Web). And yes, they have an agenda-- what company doesn't? Even OSS devotees have one (or several).

Yes, Microsoft has killed technologies-- including a very advanced database I beta tested years ago, the unique features of which have still not made it to market.

But even given their inglorious history, I can't see Microsoft killing any choices here. The odds are, in fact, that Silverlight will be another failure. And even if it isn't, well, it will likely turn out to be another of those niche services that captures a fragment of the available market. I see the Flash/Silverlight "battle" as simlar to the ASP/JSP/PHP battle... and did the consumers lose there? Nope. Just more choice.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Frack, I was at the Launch party for Server Micosoft "Heroes" {Server 2K8, Visual Studios 2k8 and SQL Server 2K8} yesterday but my free copy of Silverlight was not missing from my pack :/

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

I will be attending the Dallas one-- offtopic, but was it worth the day?

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Yes if is a paid day off work {was only 2 hours long and I got the whole day off}.
They gave out "free*" copies of Vista {32bit only}, Server, Visual Studio & SQL Dev 2K8. I missed out of the a copy of Silverlight somehow...., :/


*=It was advertised as a Free full version but is really just a 1 years trial :/

But if is your own time, I would not waste it, unless you want the software which case I just turn up get your "feed-back forum" and collect the software and leave.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Looks like Silverlight will indeed be facing more competition, and not just from Flash. Yay for Java and SVG!

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/...devices_1.html

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Screw Java.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Java FTW!

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Choices FTW!

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

and didnt sun talk about releasing the last bits of java under GPL?

this can become silly interesting!

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 - 97.96 MB
Java (TM) SE Runtime Environment 6.0 - size 134.00 MB

See the pattern? =)

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

What pattern? Where are those numbers from?
http://www.java.com/en/download/manual.jsp has the JRE around 18 MB download, varies by platform.

Even the JDK (linux, multilanguage, i386) is a 67MB self-extracter. (Remember, it's a compressed filesystem, so while that might decompress to your 134 MB, the actual footprint will be much closer to 67 MB.)

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

And what will be the memory footprint? I don't write Java (thank you god), but i'm forced to use and administer java clients and servers every day... Guess if i'm positive about them :)

EDIT: Anyway Java won't perform very good on the tablet, unless there's some sort of acceleration.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Yeah, but this could mean acceleration, if it were deployed to the tablets. And remember, we're comparing to Flash, not lisp. So bad performance is not a horrible disadvantage.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

yep, most arm based chips have the ability to run java "natively" iirc...

as for memory footprint, i dont think it will be much worse then what one can get from a big flash element...

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

This is the installed size in Windows. The stuff they offer you to download from the web site is compressed and might download more stuff as you install it. BTW, Java4 size:

fms@ubuntu:/media/host/Program Files$ du -k Java
...
43938 Java

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

I looked at the compressed all-in-one installs; not the automated download-as-you-go.

Of course they're compressed, but so is our filesystem; knowing a comparison of compressed sizes is much more helpful, imho.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Mono has release the source for Moonlight, as of 05/16 that is...

Here is a link to the article on the SD Times site:

http://www.sdtimes.com/content/artic...rticleID=32208

Hope it gets ported soon. I could care less about Silverlight being an MS product or not...I bought my tablet to USE the web and simply expect there to be support for these things and appreciate the hard work of the developer community who pick up the amazing amount of slack left at their feet by Nokia.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

you mean "you couldn't care less" - what you said means that you do actually care as you could care less.

why do so many people get that wrong (seems to be a US centric error)?

sorry, pet peeve.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

[QUOTE=brecklundin;183346]Mono has release the source for Moonlight, as of 05/16 that is...

Here is a link to the article on the SD Times site:

http://www.sdtimes.com/content/artic...rticleID=32208

QUOTE]

Before anyone jumping on this stuff, please read a short review of the "fine" print

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s...80528133529454

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Choices for whom? Personally I'd rather be able to choose not to download yet one more plugin I don't really need in order to view a new website. And if those plugins are proprietary, I'll have to shell out big bucks to make my own content for them!

Whatever happened to the w3 implementing all this stuff as web standards? I seem to recall they were endorsing SVG among some other things for doing slideshows and simple animation.

I wish I could say "Web Standards FTW!", but sadly that does not seem to be the case. :(

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

I don't understand. Choices for everyone, of course.

No one is forcing anyone to use these technologies. That's why they're supported by voluntarily-downloaded plugins in the first place.

What's your choice? Opt in, or opt out. Download or don't. Use or don't use. Support or don't support.

But note that I'm already on record in this thread as supporting SVG. So please don't single out a 2-word quote as if it summarizes my entire position. :rolleyes:

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

makes me nauseous to read such comments. :p


{see another faux paux for you to nit pick over...now go blow me...}

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

Hey, I wasn't intending to construe that as being your entire position. I was just responding to that one statement you posted. I do apologize if it came across as a generalization.

I do understand what you're saying but, imo, some of what you mention are not true choices. After all, you might as well just say I have the choice to turn on my PC or not. I have the choice to use the web or not.

My proposal is that the backend technology ought to be implemented at the browser/OS level. There is absolutely no reason that these functions cannot be developed into a web standard. I realize capitalism complicates these issue, but that's where the frontends would come in. I have absolutely no problem with companies developing proprietary/commercial GUIs for the creation of this content. What I favor is true cross-platform/cross-browser support. A world where the web "just works" and there are no limits on creativity. Also, a world where profits relate to true innovation... not just whatever latest app the big guys are trying to convince us that we need.

I welcome your thoughts on this subject.

Re: Microsoft Silverlight Coming to the Internet Tablet
 

To an extent I agree with what you say, mainly in principle. The problem is that your arguments could be equally applied to Flash, and yet it became an eventual standard. It's entirey possible that Silverlight may as well (though not necessarily probable).

And your point about choice goes to a much farther extreme than this dialog warrants. Silverlight is fairly quivalent to Flash. Therefore, if it "grew legs" and came into significant use, then it's reasonable to assume it would be deployed in similar fashion. Eego, you would see competitors to Youtube using Silverlight, and thus web users would have another choice of media outlets. Content providers would have another choice of development technology. In a true competitive environment, the generally better (which may in this case be defined as "easier to use" or "smaller results") technology will prevail.

I also favor what you support, but I'm a realist too. I'd love to see SVG become what it was intended to be, but I recognize that companies are more likely to push their patent-laden proprietary solutions. If the web were noncommercial as it used to be, SVG would very well be the standard. But once the internet became dominated by commercial interests in the mid to late 1990s, that diminished severely in liklihood.

Bottom line, though, I don't expect Silverlight to scare Adobe much. It's another example of Microsoft doing too little too late. So I see it as one more tool that's available, which I still believe is generally good, but I don't see it ultimately amounting to much... making the whole thing a nonstarter IMO. ;)