Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Yo!

I just checked out the Pandora site. SWEET!!! Any thoughts on when this little unit will be available in Canada/North America?

Shame there is no planned Bluetooth hardware integration for this edition. I guess that's a future consideration for version 2.

Crouching Hamster

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

The first 3,000 pcs G/A production units should be available in June/July.

The Pandora does indeed not have built in bluetooth, but it does have a USB 2.0 full host port. USB BT sticks have shrunk to truly minuscule dimensions, so inconspicuous BT won't be a problem.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

You should try harder. The libc depend is just the standard libc for os2008 sdk. you can try to install with "dpkg -i --force-depends" etc and see how you go - it is unlikely to actually require a specific libc. if this works ok for you then i will try an manually set a lesser dependency for the next release. if not then you can just rebuild it in the 2007 (or whatever) sdk.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

well spotted - i will fix this in the next version. though i will probably move it to be in "MyGames" so the levels can be easily accessed with File Manager.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

I'd really like to know what you think we should watch out for.

We are doing our best to interact with the open source community - the outcome can be debatable and i agree that it's a mixed success in different areas.

However from kernel point of view i haven't seen any activity from the Pandora project on public mailing lists like linux-arm or linux-omap.

I don't know if they will pickup some of the code drops from TI or what, but it looks like they have not much support for a community of developers.

If you are just interested in the HW, well, ok but it still requires sw, right?

Possibly a community will rise around it.

And so what Nokia should care about? If more stuff comes out, maemo will benefit as well. Maybe even more than having just plain ports of applications. Hildonization is acceptable for better integration but personally i see little value in "porting" by adapting a certain application to maemo specific weirdness when a debian version would be otherwise already available.

So more devices similar to the internet tablets will rather improve the vitality of maemo itself.

Just like Nokia is not the only company using Symbian, I think it never expected to be alone in the linux effort.

Provocatory as it might seem, your signature is bogus at best and most certainly pointless.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Just tried this on OS2007HE on my 770 and it runs perfectly. Very good fun.
Thanks,
John

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

I tried a bit harder. This is dpkg's output:

/home/user # dpkg -i --force-depends /media/mmc2/numptyphy sics_0.1_armel.deb
Selecting previously deselected package numptyphysics.
(Reading database ... 15495 files and directories currentl y installed.)
Unpacking numptyphysics (from .../numptyphysics_0.1_armel. deb) ...
dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
dpkg: error processing /media/mmc2/numptyphysics_0.1_armel .deb (--install):
short read in buffer_copy (backend dpkg-deb during `./usr /bin/numptyphysics')
Errors were encountered while processing:
/media/mmc2/numptyphysics_0.1_armel.deb
/home/user #


I don't know what that means, other than that I --probably -- don't have Numptyphysics installed.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

It seems I hit a sore spot, eh?

I am mainly referring to the Pandora's hardware, but if you had taken the trouble to actually read the Pandora forum, you'd have met the community.

My beef with the Itablets is with Nokia, not with the community. Like you said, the Maemo community doesn't really depend on Nokia anymore, what with all those OMAP devices in the pipelines and a (possible) shift to Intel as well.

But Nokia certainly does depend on the Maemo community...

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

seems like johnpad got this to work on os2007he so it _should_ work for you. it looks like maybe your package is corrupted. you can check it (somewhat) with "dpkg-deb -c numptyphysics_0.1_armel.deb"

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

This is what dpkg-deb -c gave me:

/home/user # dpkg-deb -c /media/mmc2/numptyphysics_0.1_armel.deb
drwxr-xr-x 0/0 0 2008-04-01 15:11:15 .
drwxr-xr-x 0/0 0 2008-04-01 15:11:13 ./usr
drwxr-xr-x 0/0 0 2008-04-01 15:11:15 ./usr/bin
-rwxr-xr-x 0/0 167340 2008-04-01 15:11:15 ./usr/bin/numptyphysics
tar: Short header
dpkg-deb: subprocess tar returned error exit status 1
/home/user #

I find it confusing, as I definitely don't have ./usr/bin/numptyphysics. Then again, that was just about the only part of the output I somewhat understood, so...

EDIT: I forgot: I deleted my first download and re-downloaded the install file again. I tried to install it prior to this diagnostic run and got the same result as the first time.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

i just tried 10 minutes ago, after downloading the .deb dpkg -i --force-depends worked for me. Are you sure the download went well? Perhaps some cache to clear or similar?

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Apparently, the version I downloaded kept getting corrupted. Since I don't know how to clear a cache (other than with a shovel and a broom, that is) I downloaded it from my pc and copied the deb to my card.

I'm happy to say the install went well and -- sofar -- Numptyphysics runs almost perfectly. One exception: the "hold ESC to quit" doesn't seem to work, but killing from the home screen does a fine job.

It's a very very nice program, but I'm still pining for a variation I outlined on the CrayonPhysics site: Instead of a puzzle-solver, I'd like to see it as a freeform drawing program for kids. It's a nice way for younger children to create animations and a sort of virtual Legos.

Perhaps a series of predefined shapes could be added as a side-toolbar: wheels, levers, standard building blocks, even legs and arms that perform pre-defined motions. Ow, I dunno, I'm just making this up as I go along.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

That sounds like a crayon version of The Incredible Machine :)

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Not at all :-)
One single b i t c h ing user - especially one doing it with the intensity you do it - generates mostly amusement, however i wanted to know what was the reason: if you had a vocation for it or actually a valid complaint. One should always be given a chance to explain his unhappiness.

A self contained community is a poor community. This applies to Maemo as well. I'm frankly disappointed that there hasn't really been much activity at kernel lever for example. That would have been entirely possible since the kernel is one of the most open parts of the tablet, but nothing.

Anyway, about Pandora I was referring to the developers who bring out the product. Where are they? We are present in many mailing lists - i hang around mostly in arm & omap ones - and I still have to see anything coming from Pandora.

We, on the other hand, are right now providing patches for power management, usb, alsa .. and more will come soon.

I didn't say that maemo is depending on Nokia, but certainly Nokia developing the ITOS cannot leave the community unaffected. It would be illogic to assume otherwise. If you want the bare metal, go and buy the TI development boards. Or intel. Or whatever you think lets you untainted. And good luck with that.

Sensational finding ... I thought that was one of the pillars of the whole tablet project, actually one of the goals, but apparently you didn't notice.

Anyway, as I said, Nokia is used to competition, actually welcomes it, therefore there isn't anything new in Pandora coming out. When OpenMoko came out neither we did run and hide, nor we got upset with it (actually some of our guys are involved with OpenMoko as well). I wonder why you think that yet another device would be different.

But probably you prefer your very biased interpretation What can I say .... enjoy it!

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

It does, doesn't it? :D

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

There actually is/was another piece of similar software made by someone else that was less goal-oriented and more just a 2d physics sandbox...I can't remember what it's called, but I'll post when I come upon it again.

God, I love numpty physics. It's so entertaining, even with so few levels, just making stuff and trying things out.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

'dpkg-deb -c' is the 'list content of package' command (i.e. it tells you where and what it's going to install if you run dpkg -i). So, your package is incomplete and needs a re-download.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

I wouldn't say nothing, igor. Fanoush has done some very good things with the kernel, to name one example. If I understand correctly, though, one thing holding back community kernel work in general has been the frustration over getting improvements pushed upstream. Can anyone comment on that? I may be wrong.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

I could, but you'd have to kill me if I did.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Yeah, thanks. The trouble was that re-downloading it on the N800 kept giving me the incomplete package (some cache I couldn't find kept assuming I really wanted a crippled file). I ended up downloading it to my pc and copying the -- now complete -- file to my card.

Interestingly, the corrupt file was three times larger than the healthy one. Is someone trying to feed viruses down the Itablet pipeline? ;)

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

I would never. You serve a valuable purpose!






Once I discover it, I'll share with the community.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

How did you download it on the tablet and from where?

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Well, it is just patchwork, so far mainly stealing bits from other places, nothing too much creative. I have not written anything big by myself.

What's holding me back:

- little or no documentation for the hardware
TI and OMAP architecture is not very open and so is other hardware (wlan chip), we'd like to have documentation for jazelle, 3d chip, IVA, or source for DSP kernel running on tablets so we can add stuff and rebuild it

- fear of breaking the hardware
with no documentation some changes may damage the device, also we still have no info about cold flashing the device, I would probably do more work in hacking the bootloader if I had a way to recover from breaking bootloader or config partitition. Even getting the pinout (for newer devices, 770 is known) and building the right cable takes time.

- chronic lack of time
I'm picking lowest hanging fruit first, there is simply no time for bigger stuff, any small roadblock and priorities change. Over the years there were a lot of comments from @nokia.com people on the mailing list about how everything is easy and right under our nose etc. Not true when seen from outside. Also why to bother reverse-engineering stuff? Yes it is fun for the first or second time but my happy reverse-engineering period was at the time when I had C64 or Amiga, not today. This also relates to

- hate to do duplicated or useless work
Who knows what Nokia is cooking in the labs? Why to bother with reinventing the wheel? Why to bother when next release may break it? The only device worth of attention now because of this is 770 :-)

As for pushing upstream (where upstream is Nokia, not kernel.org), yes this is problem too. Why to bother when Nokia will not include it in stock firmware and most users will not be able to use it. We were thinking/talking in maemo-developers about adding some nice features (mainly pixel doubling, rotation) of the epson video chip to the kernel and optimizing SDL for it, the answer was something along the lines - no we don't want it because it is HW specific hack and this HW feature may not be available on future devices (which is probably true).

Also as Nokia is doing relatively good job with kernel one reason why there is not much work done is simply because there is no need, it already works :-)

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Thanks for that excellent clarification, fanoush.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

This one at least I can answer (sort of): Your wheels are way better than Nokia's. Yours are round! Lest we forget e.g. the original SDHC hack...

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Hee hee. My roommate, who doesn't particularly care for my N800, has become semi-addicted to Numpty Physics anyway. Maybe it's the killer app that everyone talks about. (I always suspected that the key to the popularity of Windows was Microsoft Solitaire...)

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Numpty Physics: AWESOME.

I agree that this app may very well be one of the "killer apps" for the NITs.

Here's my "Trebuchet Solution" to the final level! ;) :D

Note that this is only a "paused physics solution," and that it is much easier to do things on pause than while the physics are "running".

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2193/...91fed325_o.png

So, where should we post our new levels?

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

I caught myself, more than once, shaking the tablet like a bottle of ketchup, as if that would dislodge the little red ball and make it roll where I wanted it to go!

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

This game is awesome!! and it's in alpha stage? I can't wait until it is in stable state!!

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

post new levels to numptyphysics-users@garage.maemo.org
- the list is broken atm but i still get the messages. i will include some new levels in the next release. once i work out this mime and dbus stuff we can have a wweb catalog of levels.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Thanks Tim. This is truly awesome! I have spent HOURS playing with this...is it a game? I love the truly free form of play that it allows. Bravo!!

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Thanks again Tim, for this awesome app. It's the most fun I've had on the IT...absolutely addicting:D!

I would love to create my own levels and did this, but
a) it offered no confirmation message (but, being beta, not necessarily expected) and,
b) I couldn't find the file. More from ignorance, though, as I am not sure how to locate the following path.

I used both the file manager and xterm to poke around, but am not sure where to find "~/.numptyphysics/"...dumb question I know but help would be appreciated, thanks.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

You might need to create the folder. "~" is your home directory (\home\user), the default location when you open xterm. Just open xterm and type
If it returns an error, then type
After you have saved a level, you can enter the directory and check if the file is there
or move the level to another location if you want to share it, e.g.
(to move it to the external card). Use cp instead of mv if you want to copy it to another location.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Thanks! This is just what I wanted to know! And it worked like a charm!

Numpty Physics: woo hoo!
 

Ok, so I've built a couple of silly little levels. I decided to post them here, since the files are so small and this way, everyone can try them and proceed to mock me.

Unzip the levels into your ~/.numptyphysics dir. I arbitrarily named the levels 97 and 98, you can change the level numbers to whatever you want. Once you re-open Numpty Physics, you'll have my two levels at the end. Use the right D-pad button to skip through the other levels.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

By the way, there's another weird bug in NumptyPhysics. If you have multiple goals, and you hit one of them, the goal disappears but it continues to exist, it is just invisible. This can certainly add challenge to a level, but it is not expected behaviour.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

qole, this bug has been fixed in the svn version on the garage page. I compiled it (and got a neat new level as well) and am running it on my tablet (although I couldn't get it to run in scratchbox)

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Good to know; I'm not the "compile the latest SVN version" kinda guy, so I'll wait 'till there's a .deb of it.

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

Tim will release 0.2 when its done, please don't rush him :)

Re: Crayon Physics & internet tablets: made for each other
 

No rushing here. The bugs in the current version aren't show-stoppers. They just make things more... charming.