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maemo.org - Talk (https://talk.maemo.org/index.php)
-   Announcements (https://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   [RESTARTED] Internet Tablet Talk Software Section (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=20261)

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 14:10
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggie (Post 184101)
I would like to turn this discussion around and look at it from the perspective of the end-users. When I say end-users, I mean the majority -- consumers with zero to average knowledge of linux, packages, debs, repositories, and Maemo. Let's face it, much of what we have now are just too confusing for them. A lot of them won't install apps and a lot of them will not go as far to know what Maemo is.

I would have wanted a system to make it easy for them. I would have wanted a system that they can use and have them upload desktop backgrounds, themes, maybe submit their own NumptyPhysics levels. I want it to be fun for them by letting them be a part of the system -- able to upload, discuss, and talk directly to the developers.

Instead, what we have is a slow, hard to get to, developer-centric system with an identity crisis. What's more, it has no direct connection to Tableteer, and provides a messy link to Application Manager.

I created a system that I can control and integrate more. It was not much but I had the best intentions to help the end-users and ultimately love their tablets. It was shot down before it can even take off.

I don't think no one in Maemo.org shares my vision. Sure, they want to improve some things but up to what level? Is it up to the end-user level?

Syndication is easy but I think is the wrong solution. All it does is make the developers' life easier but does really nothing for the end-users.
Reggie I still think this is a good idea. People just didn't give it time, there is so much more stuff that you couldn't have offered to End Users to download that they can't find at maemo.org. I for one would have liked a templete section so people could create templetes and upload them, it would have also been cool for a section for Flash games and programs that run well on the tablets. I have found a lot of games that are fun and run well(and are free) that I have no where to post them for people to fine easly. There is alot of stuff that could have been done with this and I hope you don't give up on it. I know you worked hard on it.

joepagiii 2008-05-21 14:15
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
well like it or not i think this needs to happen....linux as a whole needs to be drug out and made user friendly and older mindsets need to evolve ..i understand everyone has done there time as newbies heck i will never consider myself above that level and its not too good to give all the answers but sometimes a little direction cant hurt

GeneralAntilles 2008-05-21 14:23
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reggie (Post 184114)
I have to clarify that I'm when I say Maemo.org, it's the folks that run it, not the developers.
Perhaps, but did you bother to try communicating with them about it, or did you just assume that they're not interested? X-Fade (Niels Breet) is the new(ish) community man-on-the-inside* for maemo.org. His entire job is to get with the community and make things happen for the website, and this certainly fits into the realm of "things". If you'd been following the discussions on the lists and announcements on maemo.org, you'd realize that Nokia is trying to move maemo.org more into community hands and for the community's desires.

*We've also got dneary (Dave Neary) as the new community docmaster, and andre (Andre Klapper) and guenther (Karsten Bräckelmann) as the new bugmasters.

jukey 2008-05-21 14:28
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
IMHO the maemo.org download section ist a very good place for tablet beginners to catch software for there device.
Most of the applications in the download section provide a link to there garage page or home page.

End user to end user discussions are possible in ITT without any problem. Discussions about new desktop backgrounds, levels für numty physics and stuff like this could be discussed here too.

On maemo.org the problem is, that there seems to be no possibility not to show a forum / bugzilla / ... per application. E.g. for me it is not transparent where to post a bug. In bugs.maemo.or or in the bugzilla of the project? where to discuss the software? Maybe it would be a good idea to let the owner of a maemo.org project put links to discussions / levels / stuff (e.g. in ITT) into the project page. But not only the owner - other people to like in a wiki.

Just my 2 cent,
jukey

Reggie 2008-05-21 14:29
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles (Post 184120)
Perhaps, but did you bother to try communicating with them about it, or did you just assume that they're not interested? X-Fade (Niels Breet) is the new(ish) community man-on-the-inside* for maemo.org.
Yup, some months back. Yes, I know about X-Fade (link).

briand 2008-05-21 14:45
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Reggie --

I understand what you're saying, and I am in agreement with your thinking on the process -- it should be convenient for the users. ...and, I say that as a developer (although, not [yet] an NIT developer).

I hope that some version of your vision comes to pass, here... it is, as you've noted, sorely needed, and should be driven by the needs/wants of the end-users, regardless of (and sometimes, despite) their individual technical acumen.

Is it perfect? No. ...nor is it necessarily cast in stone, either. I think you've got a good starting point, and that you're going at it from the right direction. It should be about making things easier and more convenient for the users. If that means it makes it more difficult, or less convenient, for the developers, then maybe that's the price to be paid. ...or something that can be improved upon as the whole process matures.

Texrat 2008-05-21 15:30
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
I'm still confused as to why this topic has to polarize. I also don't understand why syndication wasn't a solution.

But what I do understand is that two different (but related) core issues are being blurred here, as gnuite pointed out, and I think this discussion is just gonna stay wrapped around the axle until the 2 distinct conversations are separated. To reiterate, they are:

-using maemo garage (or alternatives) to manage app development

-using maemo downloads (or alternatives) to make finished apps available to end users

There have already been threads created (and HIGHLY populated) for both topics-- so can't we ease back into the best of each one and continue the dialog there? Otherwise I think this is just going to get messier... especially since both sides do have very valid points.

dkwatts 2008-05-21 16:24
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 184160)
I'm still confused as to why this topic has to polarize. I also don't understand why syndication wasn't a solution.

But what I do understand is that two different (but related) core issues are being blurred here, as gnuite pointed out, and I think this discussion is just gonna stay wrapped around the axle until the 2 distinct conversations are separated. To reiterate, they are:

-using maemo garage (or alternatives) to manage app development

-using maemo downloads (or alternatives) to make finished apps available to end users

There have already been threads created (and HIGHLY populated) for both topics-- so can't we ease back into the best of each one and continue the dialog there? Otherwise I think this is just going to get messier... especially since both sides do have very valid points.
I'm still confused:

Where is the End-User one-stop shop for downloading developing NumptyPhysics levels, desktop backgrounds, themes, MicroB userstyles, Flash Games etc.?

Jaffa 2008-05-21 16:30
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkwatts (Post 184179)
Where is the End-User one-stop shop for downloading developing NumptyPhysics levels, desktop backgrounds, themes, MicroB userstyles, Flash Games etc.?
Indeed, there isn't one: no-ones been uploading their content to the systems currently available. Having said that, I can see a clear distinction between application software (which may be supported by the author, has distinct versions etc) and user-generated content such as background images.

Themes are effectively applications, so should be in downloads.maemo.org, as could userstyles (and, if desired, backgrounds or - more likely - collections thereof).

Flash games are a little dangerous: copyright violations are likely to be occurring left, right and centre if they're uploaded to random places.

All of your examples could fit into downloads.maemo.org without requiring too much in the way of a user contortion.

Texrat 2008-05-21 16:32
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkwatts (Post 184179)
I'm still confused:

Where is the End-User one-stop shop for downloading developing NumptyPhysics levels, desktop backgrounds, themes, MicroB userstyles, Flash Games etc.?
You bring up a good question, but that still dilutes the subject. Those aren't maemo applications, so if another site hosts them, there isn't any overlap or conflict with existing prescribed resources.

So here we have a legitimate fork, and in my opinion what Reggie proposed would fit the bill specific to that context. At the same time, I believe maemo should be pressured to add support for such things.

EDIT: I see Andrew partially disagrees with me on what constitutes a maemo app. That's fine. I just think that most of what dkwatts listed are support files, not apps-- BUT I do think maemo should broaden to embrace them (not the Flash).

Benson 2008-05-21 16:44
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaffa (Post 184181)
Themes are effectively applications, so should be in downloads.maemo.org, as could userstyles (and, if desired, backgrounds or - more likely - collections thereof).
User stylesheets I disagree with, in general; while Brontide has a nice modular approach, you only have in general one userContent.css. Brontide's userContent.css includes other files that do all the styling, so it becomes plausible (given that approach) to do it.

It requires, however, some such well-known package containing a core userContent.css or script to generate one before you can reasonably install various stylesheets. Unless you've got that, they're just so many recipes you can borrow from to build your own monolithic userContent.css; while not impossible, putting them in maemo.org/downloads seems bad to me.

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 17:02
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
The whole point should be that maemo.org doesn't have a place for things like themes and NumptyPhysics levels levels so why not make a place for them here. Also if people are coming here for them wouldn't it make since to make this a one stop shop for the programs that use those and any other programs. We can't make maemo.org add a ton of new features, but reggie can add any features like that over here if he likes.

@Texrat I don't disagree with you a Maemo App is something written for Maemo OS.

As a side not if I wrote a new in Flash the I planed to release to Maemo would that not be considered a Maemo App? I mean I can take a Python program and get it to work on other OSes, but that isn't what this discusstion is about.

Texrat 2008-05-21 17:24
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfblack (Post 184206)
The whole point should be that maemo.org doesn't have a place for things like themes and NumptyPhysics levels levels so why not make a place for them here.
If that WAS the whole point then I doubt there would much (if any) argument. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfblack (Post 184206)
As a side not if I wrote a new in Flash the I planed to release to Maemo would that not be considered a Maemo App?.
I would say no, and so would maemo folks.

gnuite 2008-05-21 17:30
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfblack (Post 184206)
The whole point should be that maemo.org doesn't have a place for things like themes and NumptyPhysics levels levels so why not make a place for them here. Also if people are coming here for them wouldn't it make since to make this a one stop shop for the programs that use those and any other programs. We can't make maemo.org add a ton of new features, but reggie can add any features like that over here if he likes.
We can request that they be added to maemo.org, though, and even if they're not, syndication could make ITTSS a "one-stop shop" without fragmenting the developers.

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 17:32
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
I think I have decided the best thing for me to do is to shut up on this thread it seems that no matter what I say on this topic I wrong. So no need for me to say anymore we will just have to keep digging through forum post for anything that maemo.org doesn't have on there site it looks like.

Texrat 2008-05-21 17:34
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfblack (Post 184225)
I think I have decided the best thing for me to do is to shut up on this thread it seems that no matter what I say on this topic I wrong. So no need for me to say anymore we will just have to keep digging through forum post for anything that maemo.org doesn't have on there site it looks like.
Andrew, a defeatist response is surely no solution. ;) If nothing else, your challenges make people refine their argument.

tabletrat 2008-05-21 17:35
Re: Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipeline (Post 183937)
Additionally (and probably unpopularly) i think relying -solely- on repos hurts tablets. I think whenever possible, tablet developers should make some attempt to release a version which statically links any necessary libraries so that there is no dependency hell.
Not unpopular with me. Almost like a lot of the software doesn't want to be installed. I am sure there are many people that just completely give up trying to get somethings installed.

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 17:37
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnuite (Post 184223)
We can request that they be added to maemo.org, though, and even if they're not, syndication could make ITTSS a "one-stop shop" without fragmenting the developers.
What i consider syndication is we have the exact same thing that Maemo.org has. If I am wrong then let me know. So in that case ITTSS would not be a one stop shop. Also even if reggie was to syndicate the stuff from maemo.org it would take weeks to work it out since for one they two sites use differant programs. So wouldn't it make since to go ahead and post the programs here until some thing like that could be worked out. If there was a way to post something on maemo.org and have it show up here, and have the ability to list stuff here that isn't on maemo.org that would be a good idea. I'm sure it can be done but it would take time to work out.

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 17:38
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 184227)
Andrew, a defeatist response is surely no solution. ;) If nothing else, your challenges make people refine their argument.
Well I feel that I have been personally attacked by atleast one person in this thread. BTW its not you. I guess I should just get over it and try to help work something out.

dkwatts 2008-05-21 17:41
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnuite (Post 184223)
We can request that they be added to maemo.org, though, and even if they're not, syndication could make ITTSS a "one-stop shop" without fragmenting the developers.
I'm confused:

How can itTSS syndicate "developing" themes and NumptyPhysics levels, if they are not on maemo.org in the first place?

Benson 2008-05-21 17:44
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tabletrat (Post 184228)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pipeline (Post 183937)
Additionally (and probably unpopularly) i think relying -solely- on repos hurts tablets. I think whenever possible, tablet developers should make some attempt to release a version which statically links any necessary libraries so that there is no dependency hell.
Not unpopular with me. Almost like a lot of the software doesn't want to be installed. I am sure there are many people that just completely give up trying to get somethings installed.
Responding to both posts...

I see no need to have things statically linked in order to be independently downloadable; links to where you can find those libraries (or, perhaps, mirroring the libraries) is much more sane.

But the whole point of repositories is so you don't have "dependency hell". If you have those problems, it's an issue of how the repositories are set up, how many of them there are, etc.; fixing that (by using maemo.org extras repo, mainly) is what GA, Tex, and others are advocating, and will avoid both "dependency hell" and every app having its own version of every (non-stock OS) library statically linked in.

FWIW, I don't often finding dependency hunting especially hellious when using a dependency-less packaging system (slackware fanboy here!); and it's not all that bad when using dpkg. But I recognize that there are indeed "many people", as you say, who would quit because they have no knowledge. That's why apt-get install $PACKAGE is supposed to just work.

gnuite 2008-05-21 17:50
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkwatts (Post 184232)
I'm confused:

How can itTSS syndicate "developing" themes and NumptyPhysics levels, if they are not on maemo.org in the first place?
I wasn't arguing against adding themes and game levels to ITTSS. I was arguing against re-listing applications, which should already be listed on the Maemo Downloads website. Syndicate what already exists, and add themes/levels if necessary (that is, if Maemo Downloads won't allow them to be hosted there). And don't advocate listing applications directly in ITTSS - list them on Maemo Downloads instead, and you get ITTSS syndication for free.

Texrat 2008-05-21 17:54
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
I think people are reading quickly. The hazard of a lot of blather.

We should take Stephen's approach from this point on and stealthily vote our sentiments with a bunch of silent Thanks. :D

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 18:03
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
OK so Basicly no on dissagrees that it would be nice to have somewhere to download everything from Maemo Apps to theme's to backgrounds everything. I think that syndication of the Maemo Apps would be a good idea if we could get something coded that would add the app to ITTSS list and make a topic for it in forums. Now for the time being would you guys not agree it would be best to have a download section here that has everything. Yes I know Devolpers would have to upload twice but once/if we get syndication figured out. I will take reggie and maemo.org guys working together to figure how to write something that will do it. If its possible.

So what I'm asking would it not be better to have something then nothing. I don't know if reggie would be willing to synicate the maemo.org apps if it was possible to do it, and still have uploads here. What do you guys think about it.

Texrat 2008-05-21 18:08
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfblack (Post 184245)
So what I'm asking would it not be better to have something then nothing. I don't know if reggie would be willing to synicate the maemo.org apps if it was possible to do it, and still have uploads here. What do you guys think about it.
I propose starting small.

First, Reggie could revive his idea but with an exclusive scope as has been recommended by some.

Second, he could push for the syndication. IIRC X-Fade was working on that as of last month.

Third, we hog-tie or local maemo advocate (*cough* Jaffa *cough*) and have him refine/expand his original proposals to incorporate additions to the maemo downloads scope.

:D

EDIT: Oh, hyvää iltaa Quim!

EDIT 2: I think Downloads should be split into two subsections--

DOWNLOADS
-Themes, Levels, and other Support Files
-Syndicated Application Links

sjgadsby 2008-05-21 18:13
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 184241)
We should take Stephen's approach from this point on and stealthily vote our sentiments with a bunch of silent Thanks.
Noooooo! My cover's blown!

Now, where's that bloody "No Thanks!" button?

Jerome 2008-05-21 18:28
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
I'd like to point out something: a quick check on maemo.org download page shows that applications are downloaded between 1000 and 3000 times for the most popular (4000 for pidgin). That would seem to mean that less than 1% of the tablet owners use it. It is not many users.

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 18:30
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
I think that might only count if download off site not if downloaded from repo but I might be wrong.

Texrat 2008-05-21 18:30
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome (Post 184264)
I'd like to point out something: a quick check on maemo.org download page shows that applications are downloaded between 1000 and 3000 times for the most popular (4000 for pidgin). That would seem to mean that less than 1% of the tablet owners use it. It is not many users.
...which, again, points to an educational opportunity.

gnuite 2008-05-21 18:34
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Texrat sure has been outing a lot of people lately. ;-)

sjgadsby 2008-05-21 18:36
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnuite (Post 184268)
Texrat sure has been outing a lot of people lately.
It's just another service he provides.

Texrat 2008-05-21 18:37
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnuite (Post 184268)
Texrat sure has been outing a lot of people lately. ;-)
I'm not touching that one. :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjgadsby (Post 184270)
It's just another service he provides.
Yes, there's that, bad jokes, and reminders to rcadden to bathe.

sjgadsby 2008-05-21 18:39
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 184271)
...and reminders to rcadden to bathe.
What worries me is that he apparently takes his phone with him when he does.

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 18:40
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
I just want to say wow I didn't think this thread would ever make 12 pages lol

Texrat 2008-05-21 18:46
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfblack (Post 184274)
I just want to say wow I didn't think this thread would ever make 12 pages lol
Never underestimate our ability to incessantly belabor any topic.

joepagiii 2008-05-21 18:47
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
well i think it wouldn't hurt to have some software here and elsewhere i kinda don't like hunting for new stuff all the time..and i do like beating dead horses:D

andrewfblack 2008-05-21 18:49
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
I know this is off topic but I was just think about the templetes does noone make them or is it just the fact that there is nowhere to post them? I guess you can put them under desktop environment but they don't seem to fit there to me.

Jaffa 2008-05-21 18:54
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 184182)
You bring up a good question, but that still dilutes the subject. Those aren't maemo applications, so if another site hosts them, there isn't any overlap or conflict with existing prescribed resources.
Agreed, that was the point I started to make but ended up shifting my opinion half way through my post. I may have been wrong - it happens more frequently than not :-)

Quote:
EDIT: I see Andrew partially disagrees with me on what constitutes a maemo app. That's fine. I just think that most of what dkwatts listed are support files, not apps-- BUT I do think maemo should broaden to embrace them (not the Flash).
Agreed again. Certainly there's nothing inherent in the current downloads system which'd prevent themes or (collections of) backgrounds being added to downloads.maemo.org. As Benson pointed out, user styles aren't so easy to mix & match, and non-maemo specific Flash games would be a bit of a tough sell.

maemo-specific Flash apps/games shouldn't have any problem, though, IMHO.

Benson 2008-05-21 19:00
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewfblack (Post 184283)
I know this is off topic but I was just think about the templetes does noone make them or is it just the fact that there is nowhere to post them? I guess you can put them under desktop environment but they don't seem to fit there to me.
What templates?

Bundyo 2008-05-21 19:03
Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 
Not templates, but templetes :D It is easy to confuse those two.


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