Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

The Maemo wiki is aimed at wherever the community wants it aimed. You think it needs more user-oriented articles, then get to it and write some.

*****ing about it isn't useful.

Talk is fine and all, but actions are a whole lot more useful.

Some subjects are technical, that is way of the world. Not everything can be boiled down so the lowest-common denominator can consume it.

:rolleyes:

Put up or shut up.

The subject matter sets the tone of any article, not the whole of the wiki. Technical subjects require technical articles, simple subjects do not.

Don't worry, I wont be contributing there.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

* The ITT wiki contains no notice it is deprecated, nor is it in maintenance mode, and its still referenced to on ITT website;
* Some people aren't happy with the stability, reliability & usability of wiki.maemo.org whereas maemo.org is being revamped;
* Some people still read & write on the ITT wiki;
* The content is far from being merged;

Depricated? Wishful thinking. There is a lot to be done first, and its a huge spaghetti of information to deal with. Surely, it'll be around before the previously mentioned problems are fixed. So no worries Abel :)

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Also note: the wiki will never be great if we decide not to use it because it's not awesome now. An investment has to be made first, and if we never use it because that investment hasn't yet been made . . . well, it's a Catch-22 and a stupid situation to be in.

My point wasn't that you should use the wiki because it's completely 100% up-to-speed now, but because it's where most, and eventually all, of the future effort will be going (from me and a lot of other experienced and intelligent folk).

maemo.org's wiki is the future, itT's wiki is the past.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Hey guys maybe we should make a new thread if we are going to discuss the wiki, I don't think it really fits under this post.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I don't care about awesome, I'll take *STABLE* over awesome any day.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

So instead of flaming people, like you did with Abel, start a team which works on this effort (the merging, especially). If you move data from one wiki to another, remove the content, and link to the new content. Then you know what has been merged and what hasn't and a pointer is there, too. But, like I said, the people who do this need to have the incentive to do so, and I think due to above reasons there isn't enough incentive (yet).

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

If the future is full of broken things that only work half the time then yeah its the wiki of the future. Don't get me wrong I want to post to both wiki's but I can't post to maemo.org wiki it wont let me.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

How about some of you guys puts a little effort into things like this for a change? I've put my time in in both wikis (you do realize most of the current organization of the itT wiki was mine and technut's doing, right?), but I don't have unlimited free-time, and doing everything for everybody wont work.

As I've already said, the wiki will be fixed with the server upgrades that'll be coming shortly (the downtime this morning was the first step towards them).

Besides, lots of people edit the wiki just fine. Do you just not have an account?

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I'm half way insulted that you would think that I didn't have an account. I used to use the wiki fine, and I have several Garage projects, yes I have an account. Part of my problem might be IE7 but I've never had problems with IE7 and any other wiki's I find if I refresh the page about 8 times then some times it will finally go thru this morning I tried for 30 mins and it wouldnt' take my post. I do think that we shouldn't talk about moving everything to maemo wiki until it is stable, once it is stable I will be more then happy to help move itT Wiki Stuff over to Maemo wiki. Until it stable enough for me to post stuff there I'll keep posting it here and trying to post there.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Related to the current maemo.org issues I filed bug #3564.

Quoting from comment #1,

The server hits MaxClients. Probably all caches for the search engines timed
out and now they start to crawl again?

Just a few days before work on the new servers starts......

So, basically, between the server move and the Diablo update, maemo.org is getting pounded.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I haven't found any organisation page of moving any wiki content. There is nothing I've read about it. There is no set of guidelines. I haven't found any discussion about this either.

You see, there are reasons hardly anyone is moving data around. If you care to negate these reasons, you need to pinpoint these reasons first, and then they have to be solved. Screaming around at people that they have to contribute isn't the right way.

For example, its great you figured why the wiki is working bad. Now it has to be solved...

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I finally get what exactly you meant by this. You seem to be thinking that the front page modification date has some sort of correlation to the quality of the wiki. Well, you do realize that the front page is never updated directly, right? All of its content is provided by templates. The templates get updated, not the front page. :rolleyes:

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I've got a comment concerning the Tablet Scene.

It needs more of you techincal people visiting it.

I've been posting a few questions, and there's really only two knowlegable people there that reply.

It's great to get some living answers. Though these one or two people don't know -everything-.

Searching is a joke. I can't tell you how many times I've searched, where the topic's last post was over nine months ago.


I try not to ask questions here at ITT because they're all your average newbie questions.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I've got my place where I invest my time, Tablet Scene is not one of them. Besides, many have made it clear enough that my presence there would not be appreciated.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

GA you can come by you just have to be nice :)

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

If more technical people visited it.... it would be itT....

I'm with GA on this one.. i don't need to be checking and re-checking my posts to make sure they are "tablet scene acceptable".

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

You almost left a forum because people suggested that you learn to fish instead of throwing fish at you?

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

My guess is that about 95% of people who post here with questions HAVE searched for the answers. If this is true, the overwhelming percentage of people who are being asked to search are being insulted.

Also, the anti-newpost strategy has had wonderful success here. People would rather add on to a thread that doesn't even fit their topic rather than risk being pilloried for starting a new thread when one already existed. So we get the rolling-in-the-aisles-with-laughter exaggeration of not starting new threads -- threads that are hundreds of messages long, on combinations of subjects, with the posters knowing for sure that they won't be criticized for piling on.

If it wasn't for essential posters like Texrat we'd have quite a problem, but he always manages to quietly correct things so they stay on an even keel.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

My guess is just the opposite. I'll betcha MOST people (by far), especially newcomers, ask before searching. And of those who do search, I'll wager that a large number don't search efficiently and strategically. I can say that with reasonable confidence because (stealing your statistic here) 95% of my searches find what I want within the first 3 pages, and typically in the first page. I've stepped in to help users search on the 'net in other contexts and the vast majority of the time they have failed because they just flat don't understand search.

Of course, I've just set myself up for you to suggest we respond with searching tutorials instead of "hey, noob, hit the Search button!"

And was that last comment of yours sarcasm, geneven? My detector is on the fritz.

Oh, and 95% of all statistics are made up on the spot, ya know. :p

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

In my experience... people ask the question first in hopes someone will just "tell" them the answer instead of figuring it out for themself..It's simply "easier" to make you go fish for me than to fish for myself... and because people are kind hearted and don't want to be jerks they do it.. and are thus taken advantage of.. until they do it so long they become bitter and really becomes jerks.

Some of us like to keep our sanity ;). I come here to tinker with and make the most of my tablet. If I happen to help a few new guys along the way that is wonderful - and it makes me feel good... but I'm not about to be worried about whether everyone likes me or not... I've got attainable goals I need to work towards.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

The problem with that approach, fatalsaint (as you may well know), is that too few of the answers for this product lend themselves to a quick one-line response. Many are the result of hours or weeks of effort by one or more advanced (or just plain stubborn) users and require a detailed explanation or set of instructions to solve. Then too there's what I call the General Antilles Factor which is a formula that figures in number of times the question has previously been asked, hostility level of the current asker, ratio of lines of text involved in the answer versus what the asker is willing to read, and when the potential respondent(s) last engaged in meaningful relations with something (or hopefully someone) more fulfilling than a 3-minute youporn video.

And don't mind geneven-- he's just ticked that his glass is half empty.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

That's exactly the point Tex, and well put...
The perfect example is a question "How do I boot from my SD card?"

There are about (at least) 3 complete How-to's; all different approaches and yet all functional ways to do this. So when I come across this question I have 3 choices:
1) Explain, all over again, all the steps involved in booting. (Sorry.. I don't have the time - or the patience)
2) Do the search the asker should have done first, find the post, copy the link, and give it to him (thus; throwing him the fish; I can only do this so many times before I get bored - and eventually annoyed.)
3) Tell the asker the answer is out there.. he just need to search for it. (easy for me; and provides him direction).

Thus.. many people choose option 3.. we keep our sanity - user at least knows his answer is lurking around here somewhere.. he/she just need find it.

Tablet Scene is built around options 1 or 2.. that's just not my scene :). And I know I'm not the only one. I also know this is unfair for new guys - but at the same time... I (we) can't be fixing everyone else's problem, and our own, and still have anything productive for US get done.

And hell.. last I checked - the glass was damn near evaporated ;).

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Maybe Tablet Scene should present, first and foremost, a guide to effective web search techniques... :p

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

What I mean by "more technical" is by people who know how to answer some of our questions at the Tablet Scene.

Having a forum full of people who don't know more than what the Internet Tablet School tells them isn't all that helpful.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Lurking somewhere in that post, disguising itself cleverly, is the reason why some here feared fragmentation of the user base and duplication of effort-- even if it is technically one group shared by two forums.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

"And of those who do search, I'll wager that a large number don't search efficiently and strategically"

But of course, that goes without saying, especially if you take into account that most neophytes don't know a lot of the key words. I stand by my 95% estimate of people trying some kind of search before asking questions; I guess there is no way to prove anything one way or another. It's true that some people want to announce their arrival by asking a question, nefarious and wicked though that is.

I myself would rather not know the answer than ask, in most cases.

But I know many unskilled computer users who will go for years doing things horribly without asking why they have to reboot before printing, or something ridiculous like that -- they will put up with practically anything rather than ask. Personally, I vastly prefer the blabbermouth question-askers.

And no, my comment about you wasn't sarcasm. You are an essential feature around here.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Here's where I hope the effort on the wiki can come in: https://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Not trying to perpetuate any sort of argument, but experience and observation has shown me that your estimate can be easily flipped and be more realistic-- I was being facetious when I used the word guess. :p

But hey, I decided to search on the subject and found a slightly relevant study on search habits:

http://www.webology.ir/2004/v1n2/a4.html

So in other words as the internet progressed, users regressed. Nice.

Granted, nothing about forum posting per se, but it does indicate the general laziness of web searchers. Unfortunately, that same laziness applies to people posting questions. And I'm betting we *could* perform an analysis of this site to determine a fairly accurate post/search ratio, but even though I'm actually intrigued by the idea I'm too lazy to do it. I do however have a statistic: 150,000 hits on Google for "search before posting". Hmmm... a little on the low side... :D

Oh, and thanks sincerely for the compliment. I apologize for ribbing you about your drinking glass. ;)

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I said that I thought that 95% of posters did "some kind of search" before posting. By my definition, 100% of people who glanced at the first ten results of a search did "some kind of search". But they didn't have to use a search engine at all to do "some kind of search".

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I'm not sure if any/most of you have actually visited tabletscene.. it seems to work out quite well, although it's true that there is currently not enough coverage of knowledge between those who currently answer questions there (I, for example, would know nothing if questions about e.g. canola or windows shares came up).

The site is relatively low traffic for now. The way I see it is that questions that should be relatively simple to answer could be posted there, if anyone asks the complicated ones (that is, those with complicated answers, e.g. 'how to boot from SD?'), then they should simply be sent over to ITT to ask there (with all what that implies). Then, when we answer questions there, we're easy on the jargon and we provide useful information with simple to follow instructions, if possible. If that's not possible, we don't answer (and never with a 'dude, go search'. I'm fine with that on ITT, but not on tabletscene).

I imagine this is more or less how Krisse meant it to work, and it actually does work, despite all the somewhat negative opinioning in this thread. The only problem is the limited number of people to answer questions. Unless the traffic there rises dramatically it's actually very easy to follow, and you're welcome over, but please be easy on those who post there.. OK?

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I am so writing you in for president this November.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I wouldn't call it a regression. I don't know about you, but when I can't find what I'm looking for in the first bit of results, I either:

A) Search within the results
B) Add new keywords to my search
C) Better phrase and express my query
D) Use more advanced search features (if available)
E) Try Google if I'm not using it already :p

It is only good search technique, right? ;)

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Nah, the results are garbage after the first page anyway. If what you're looking for isn't on the first page, you didn't search right. I say that people don't bother looking past the first page of results because they've learned from experience that there's nothing of much use out there past the first page.

Now, on the other hand, the built-in search tool on this forum is very different. Since it sorts results first by date, not by relevance, you have to wade through several pages of useless dreck to get to what you want, if what you want is 6 months old. The Google Search does not have this problem; I try to use it whenever possible.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Good points qole and Brent. But I have seen exceptions, where even using robust search methods still resulted in the result I really wanted showing up on the second or third page. But in those cases it mainly indicates the wealth of knowledge on the subject (for me, typically mythology or Visual basic programming) combined with my pathological desire to find just the right page... :D

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

My way to search this, or any other site with a crappy search form, is by typing in the Firefox urlbar: "here: some searchterms". How does this work you may wonder. Easy: Add a bookmark with keyword "here:" and Location:

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Wow, that here: trick is snazzy.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

@iamthewalrus:
Interesting. Does that work only on Windows? It doesn't seem to work on my Firefox3 on Linux. If I enter 'here: some searchterm' on the urlbar I get a message saying 'the protocol (here) isn't associated with any program'. If I click the bookmark I get a google search on the site with %s

EDIT: Scratch that, it works! I had put 'here:' in Name instead of Keyword. Great trick!
:D

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Maybe it's a FF2 vs FF3 thing. It worked in my Debian FF2 no problem.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

Typical example for ITT-threads! The content seldom hits the title.

Re: Introducing Tablet Scene
 

I believe it's just the opposite-- the non sequiters are the exception overall.

Ironically, though, your post counts as off topic. :D