Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Well, I'm not too worried about that even. They wouldn't be the best games out there, and they would be pretty much outdated on release. I really like games on sites like this: http://www.goodexperience.com/games/ A game shipped _on the device_ would probably also mean a non-internet connected game, and that's rather oldskool imho. After all, if it is connected, why not just then download it.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Sorry, that thinking is too narrow to me. Many of these games NEVER fall out of fashion. I see people get highly addicted to them. In that vein are standards like Yahtzee, Sudoku, etc. I even include Dicewars in that category, as well as some gambling games. Also, some Flash games do support internet-based multiplay.

And that's exactly what I'm talking about: bundle some free timeless Flash games on the tablets because people do like the diversion. We could even research the field and focus on the most popular ones that also fit the tablet form factor well. IMO, Flash is there, and we should take full advantage of it.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I have hundreds of flash games on my N800. They are an addictive and fun diversion.
The smaller the size the faster they run. When N900 comes out the larger ones will run nice.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Shipping with flash games reminds users that there are flash games, and that their tablet can run them. It also permits a bus-stop gaming scene in the N9xx space-wasting advertising-to-people-who-already-bought-it video (or in other promotional material).

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Just a reminder, not everyone that uses a NIT has an always-on connection for it - there's been plenty of discussion of the lack of reasonably-priced data plans outside of Europe and yet there are still plenty of NIT users outside of Europe. Basically, it's not necessarily connected ...

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

In some places, maybe (sucks to be in Canada, I hear!), but in the US, shopping around seems to yield data plans on par with European ones...

Anyway, the plan is that Maemo 5 apps are supposed to be able to assume ubiquitous access. Users who don't have a reasonably ubiquitous internet capability, whether cellular, WiFi, or whatever, are going to be something of second-class citizens. Or at least that's what I understand from reports of Summit attendees.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I'm a bit worried now, because thinking back ragnar and myself seems to have been having diametrically opposing opinions about hardware as well as software and UI, from at least since just before the N810 came out. Oh well, I can only hope for the best.

Fortunately I managed to order the Pandora though! :D

/nick TwoFullSizeSDslotsPlease

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Oh good God! I would be afraid of damaging the screen. I would fully expect something in that particular form factor to be a whole lot more fragile than normal.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I hate you. ;)

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I respect ragnar and his experience, but I hope his opinion is not indicative of groupthink in that organization. The company in general already has a repuation (in the US at least) of not listening to customers, and thinking Our Way is The Way. :o

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I've ordered a Pandora too... :cool:

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Yet, Nokia actually has a good track record, overall, of doing exactly that. Just look at what they've got out in the world right now, in terms of form factors:

• flip phones
• E(50?) type candybars (with number-pad and trackpad on the face)
• E66 type candybar sliders (with trackpad on the face)
• E71 type candybars with half-screen/half-qwerty faces
• E90 type micro-laptops with a candybar outside
• Soon, E75 type side-slide qwerty with candybar type face
• Soon, the Tube, touch screen with no number bad nor qwerty (not sure about the d-pad).

That's a pretty good list. And they support them quite well. Though, personally, I wish the E75 had a full screen face instead of half-screen/half-number pad.

But, I was just looking at this new Fujitsu concept (here and here) and thinking it'd be an interesting direction.

1. Start with the N810, remove the buttons from the face (and maybe some other cosmetic things like removing the bezel and making a flat face).
2. Remove the slide-out keyboard, and use that savings to make the device thinner.
3. Make an attachable QWERTY keyboard like the Fujitusu concept has, but make sure it's durable and can attach solidly.
4. On the second page, the picture also shows what could be a game-pad attachment.
5. You could also make an attachment that's a docking-station/charger-bay for it, to which you'd also attach USB devices

If you could pull of a sturdy version of that design, you'd have the base design that would force developers to think in terms of touch screen and tablet, while also allowing users who prefer a keyboard to buy such an attachment. The game-pad attachment could further make the gaming crowd happy, and the docking station would be useful for those who want things like external storage, full size keyboards, maybe even external displays. Depending on the details of the attachment interface, it might also be possible to make things like external storage attachments (either extra SD slots or SSDs), especially if you can daisey chain them, and make part of it wrap around to the back.

(if the attachments were somehow reversible, you could make storage devices that wrap around to the back also function as face covers, and have the keyboard attachment combine with the gamepad attachment)

(and, if you do that, please make a keyboard with the layout of the E90, and the feel of the E71 ... :) )

I think that'd be an interesting way to address all of the various crowds. I don't know if it'd be practically realizable, but I'd still find it an interesting thing to research.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I'd like to have a physical button for scrolling. I read a lot of ebooks and I'd prefer to be able to just tap a button with my thumb or finger (depending on how I'm holding the device) rather than obscuring the screen with my free hand to tap the screen.

Anything that helps me one-hand-it is good.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Obscuring the screen..:rolleyes:. the cool thing to do is 'swipe' nowadays.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Thank you, now I know what's been (slightly) bothering me about many maemo UIs: some of the toolbar buttons at the bottom of the screen.
Take deleting a file in file manager as an example. First you have to select the file, then go to a different part of the screen and press a spatially unrelated button (the trashcan). Why isn't [delete] on the context menu, right by the affected file, so to speak? Isn't that non-direct, in a way? At the very least the static toolbar takes up precious screen real estate even when not needed.
Before someone complains that the context menu would get too complex, yes it would. Off the top of my head: Replace the textual context menu entries with symbols where established symbols exist and show those in a *circle* around the affected object to minimize stylus/finger travel time. For the more advanced options that require textual descriptions, put those in a third-layer menu (that pops up if you press down on an object even longer).

Can one test-drive these alternate input methods somewhere?

You're right of course. It's nice to get *some* reassurance that a hw keyboard isn't going to be an integral part of the platform.

Just be careful you don't overspecialize. Nokia's feature phones (used to, at least) suffer from this. :)

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

First, delete is on the context menu, and when using a stylus, I tend to go that way for it. Context menus, as implemented, are somewhat riskier when in finger-mode, so I might slap the toolbar button (or menu + d-pad on the hardware keys, especially when I'm using one hand).

Better finger-mode context menus would be nice; although the implementation can't simply be to replace all popup menus, it could hopefully be patterned closely enough to permit easy conversion (where existing menu items are suitable).

The only alternate (latin-centric) input method implementation I'm aware of is QwikScript, but any method with open-source implementations could be ported to Maemo... Some of them have Java and similar online tech demos.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

uh... context menus are also indirect forms of manipulation. Just closer in proximity than the trash button.

Direct manipulation would be dragging the file into a trash-can/recycler/waste-basket/black-hole/whatever.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Damn straight. Anybody ever hear of Solitaire? . . . :rolleyes:

Which, in my thinking, is a really stupid plan. Because it both alienates hardware without always-on connectivity, and absolutely nukes battery life. . . .

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Yes, but I think (and hope!) all sane developers were smiling and nodding politely at that point. The flaws are obvious.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Starting to feel like 1984 around here... I just wish Nokia would let us get a little "official" input, right? I don't know, maybe give the council some say in the hardware? Or even some kind of poll would be nice, too.

But, aside from that.

I want the 770's form factor (same size and same sturdy feel!) but with a really weighty-feeling sliding keyboard. The 770 feels perfect in my pocket...

That nice big d-pad is great for loads of stuff. But, it would be nice if the finish on the device was a *little* shinier. Not iPhone shiny, but not as dull as the 770 is.

And a black, metal body would be great. along with stylizing the d-pad (not making it smaller!) and the buttons.

Oh, and a hard cover :D



* The word "groupthink" just brought Orwell in to my head for some reason...

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I will not be upgrading from my n810 if there is no hard keyboard. I love my n810 keyboard and honestly I have relatively large hands. I'm 6' and can just barely palm a basketball (If I move I lose it, haha). The slide out design and placement of the keyboard is perfect, the keys and dpad just need a little love. I think a flush screen is the only other thing that would be really great along with a way to use the thing as both a camera and a webcam (like the n800 can). After that its internal hardware and software. The size and wieght are fine by me. I wouldn't sacrifice the screen size for anything.

As far as the OP. Keep the D-pad! Just make it better please.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

:) It's a matter of perspective here. Me personally, and Nokia as a company, listens to customers in a vast array of ways, through many user studies, usability tests, customer feedback etc. It's certainly not Our Way is The Way.

Obviously the goal is to make Maemo Software a mass market success. For that - and I hope people here do not take it the wrong way (foolish hope!) - the people here on this site do not fully represent the hopes and needs of an average mass market consumer. Early adopters (and developers) accept and look for solutions that need to be ... how should I say it, streamlined for wider acceptance. The future trends are picked up already, but in order to them to become mainstream, they need to packaged and presented in a manner which is somewhat contrary to what some people here feel.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

ah, it all just seems a bit of a shame - I agree with the guy who uses his d-pad for scolling ebooks/pdfs, with the other poster who uses drop down menus and then d-pad for executing commands (I've found myself doing that more, not less).

i think the keypad is great, but I didn't go for the 810 because you have to open it to get to the d pad. now it seems that won't be too much of a worry for the 900 :(

still, i like to go forward rather than back, i suppose I just don't want to wait too long!

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I specifically fell in love with my n810 based on the keyboard.
I do not want a PDA.
I do not want to lose half my screen for a soft keyboard.

Of course, some software works really well onscreen and for small short wizards and dialogs its great, but if someone decided to make (for instance) a nice fast kinetic word processor or IDE It would be extremely wasteful to have to give up half the screen for it.

Now, if we could *double* the touchscreen size and have a slideout virtual keyboard or something, then I would agree.

But some tasks just need as much of the screen as possible.

$0.02 :)

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Hey, I work there, too. I know what I see. :p

Seriously, there are obvious flaws in our info gathering and dissemination processes. I'm well aware we do the work, but I'm also aware it isn't always properly prepared and/or digested. That's a common theme these days on the internal blogs. Just ask "the Hulk". ;)

EDIT:

And in case the subject comes up, I don't think I'm revealing anything secret here. This disconnect is common to most large corporations, and consumers in the US have been grumbling about Nokia's deaf ears for at least a few years now.

The disconnect is obvious in certain regional sales numbers... in lack of positive street cred... in the success of some competitors' products.

I won't go into further details because then that would get sticky. I know you have read my blog, ragnar, but make sure to check out others. I'm actually mild in my criticisms-- others, especially some of my peers in your neck of the woods, don't mince words when it comes to Nokia's drift away from certain customers.

As for people here not representing consumers, I think you have a point in some respects but are off base in others. Many on this forum are leaders, who capture the sentiment of consumers and present it in concrete terms. Their well-reasoned input should be thoughtfully considered, not dismissed out of hand.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Yup. I've "sold" a few tablets to coworkers myself (or rather sold them on the tablets), who would otherwise have gone on to line Apple's pockets :-)

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

This is Nokia's goal, but let's remember that Nokia discontinued their touchscreen phones, missing the biggest user trend of the last three years (and let's not forget clamshells). The static I heard at the time was about unifying behind the S60 platform or something similar, not user inputs. S60 endures, IMO, because it works well and this is Nokia's strength - not predicting user trends (some of which are things like the RAZR). Time will tell whether or not the barren TS only UI is a fad, but we should guard against the usability of maemo getting adversely affected by a fad.

I for one understand the goal of commercial success. But many of the comments here are from the user perspective, heavy users who have been in effect testers and who by and large want to keep their physical keys for one reason or another. They should continue to be supported by maemo.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I've shown my N800 to "normal" people when travelling, and many of them fall for it completely. Some of them says it's exactly what they want. The problem though is that usually it's not possible to buy the N8x0 in any of those places (including African countries).

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Yes. Support but don't require, as I wrote in a previous post. Or 'take advantage of them if available, but don't make your design unusable if they do not exist.'

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

That may be true but how do I "swipe" one handed? I'd still prefer a "jog dial". Even if it's not on the front face it could be on a side panel.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I can agree with that. ;)

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

Some of you wrote about flash games in this thread. One last warning: Mention "flash" one more time, even think of it, and I'll take away your tablets. All of them. For good.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

You're just a flash in the pan. :p

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

I hate it when you do this! :D

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

And I hate it when you flash that cheesy smile.

Re: future NIT form factor - Dpads?
 

If Nokia wants to really set things aflame, dpda or not, do this:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news...UJITSU_004.jpg

or this:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news...UJITSU_001.jpg

On top of maemo, that would be consumer eye catching, geek drooling, and frankly more than what the market can really take. Aka, the perfect next step :D