maemo.org - Talk - N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

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- - N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97 (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=29385)

ARJWright

2009-06-11 02:40

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

typing this on my 5800xm as its connected to my tv; cincinnati bell is the only usa carrier to offer mobilex such as the 5800xm on contract and with subsidy and the os in those is not touched. Its more than possible for nokia to do well with carriers, carriers need to play by the same rules with all manufacturers.

Thesandlord

2009-06-11 03:53

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

N900, Pre, and 3GS are all CortexA8 (600mhz?) with 256 MB RAM and PowerVR graphics. Its going to be down to the software... Too hard to choose...

N97 = Fail

qole	2009-06-11 04:09

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

What really interests me is the fact that the pre and the N900 might even be interchangeable when it comes to software... We very well might be able to hack Maemo onto the Pre and WebOS onto the N900...

GeneralAntilles

2009-06-11 04:16

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by qole (Post 295517)

We very well might be able to hack Maemo onto the Pre and WebOS onto the N900...

Good luck getting Hildon down to 480x320.

Thesandlord

2009-06-11 05:05

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by qole (Post 295517)

WebOS runtime + Dalvik Runtime + GarnetVM + Maemo System = (EPIC WIN) ^ 400000

Ultimate smartphone

Architengi

2009-06-11 05:28

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thesandlord (Post 295537)

>> Originally Posted by qole

>> What really interests me is the fact that the pre and the N900 might even be interchangeable when it comes to software...
>> ...hack the Pre and WebOS onto the Maemo N900...

WebOS runtime + Dalvik Runtime + GarnetVM + Maemo System = (EPIC WIN) ^ 400000

Ultimate smartphone

Is there a VM for Symbian on Maemo?

Because Symbian is OPEN SOURCE (not like WebOS) and it has an emulator for Windows - it is a Symbian VM where the developers can run Symbian apps like on the phone
- because Symbian goes open source, I think also the emulator code will be OPEN - so it can be adjusted for Maemo

There are more than 50 millions of Symbian users, I don't know others would say about this, but I would be more than interested to be able to keep my investment in the Symbian apps I already made, more than happy to be able to run Symbian apps on　Ｎ９００　Maemo.

knikkane

2009-06-11 09:23

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

What is also interesting is that the 3GS will will update the GPU from MBX to SGX. How they will utilize it is at least open for me but in theory it should bring a lot more raw processing power to the graphics side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thesandlord (Post 295512)

N900, Pre, and 3GS are all CortexA8 (600mhz?) with 256 MB RAM and PowerVR graphics. Its going to be down to the software... Too hard to choose...

N97 = Fail

lma	2009-06-11 09:38

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Architengi (Post 295541)

Because Symbian is OPEN SOURCE

It will be, but isn't yet. It also seems that the open source version that will be eventually released is going to be somewhat different to what exists on actual devices today.

Quote:

and it has an emulator for Windows - it is a Symbian VM where the developers can run Symbian apps like on the phone

It's not quite an emulator in the traditional sense. It's a separate target platform (it runs IA-32 binaries and is neither binary nor source-level compatible) and you have to explicitly compile your app for it (using a different compiler which is unlikely to be open sourced).

Bottom line: it's very unlikely that existing binaries will run on Symbian^2 at all.

Quote:

this, but I would be more than interested to be able to keep my investment in the Symbian apps I already made

Just out of curiosity, what kind of apps are you talking about?

Architengi

2009-06-11 15:59

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 295585)

It will be open, but isn't yet. It also seems that the open source version that will be eventually released is going to be somewhat different to what exists on actual devices today.

Bottom line: it's very unlikely that existing binaries will run on Symbian^2 at all.

So Symbian^2 and the today's N97 Symbian^0.6 (s60 v5) will have the applications incompatible? :confused: Why? :eek:

abject

2009-06-11 16:11

A Key Feature Overlooked?

Erm... Am I the only one who views it as a key differentator that the N900 does not exist, while you can actually buy the other 3 and use them to, say, make phone calls and stuff?

Just saying...

Architengi

2009-06-11 17:19

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by lma (Post 295585)

[Symbian] will be open, but isn't yet.
Bottom line: it's very unlikely that existing binaries will run on Symbian^2 at all.

Mysery...

They don't plan OS upgrade, and neither some platform applications compatibility, because there are, besides the "public API", some secret APIs: "Platform API" and "internal API" and the secret platform API CAN CHANGE between the releases!!!

Mysery, mysey, mysery...

From the comments in the blog you linked above:
http://blog.symbian.org/2009/03/12/i...-release-plan/

Quoting David Wood:
> (The Symbian Platform makes a commitment to preserve
> public APIs in between releases. However, we reserve
> the right to change platform APIs.)

> A device like the N95-3 has a large amount of additional
> software in it. Some of that extra software may well
> use platform APIs, as well as public APIs.
> When the operating system moves to another version,
> the platform APIs can change (although the public
> ones remain fixed).

Ludovic:
I think a blog post about the different API level (sorry if it exists already and missed it) would be welcome. To clear up things a bit. If I understand well, what you call platform API is basically a private API, right ? or could it be a staggering API, preparing for inclusion as public API in a future release but not ready ? Also very welcome would be a statement on ABI compatibility. The GNOME project is doing a great job at that so you might inspire on that.

David Wood:
There will be material about the different API categories on the forthcoming new version of http://www.symbian.org. Here’s a quick explanation in the meantime: “public” APIs are expected to be maintained between releases; “platform APIs” are available for people creating software to be built into devices or to be included in the platform itself; “internal APIs” are for use only inside a single package.

Benson

2009-06-11 20:09

Re: A Key Feature Overlooked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by abject (Post 295666)

Erm... Am I the only one who views it as a key differentator that the N900 does not exist, while you can actually buy the other 3 and use them to, say, make phone calls and stuff?

I hope so.

When the poll was started, you couldn't buy the Pre, and nobody knew what the "iPhone v3" would even be called. Only one of the items was shipping: the N97.

Right now, you can't buy an iPhone 3G S. So your "differentator" is completely bogus right now, will be true for some period starting June 19, and will almost certainly be rendered meaningless in some weeks or months when the "N900", under whatever actual designation, ships; it's only key if buying a phone in that time period is important to you.

Architengi

2009-06-11 22:43

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjgadsby (Post 295497)

>> TexasInstruments OMAP3

Are you inquiring about Nokia and the N800/N810? The N8x0 tablets use TI OMAP 2420 chips.

If N900 will use OMAP 3 and N810 uses an OMAP 2, can anybody explain me why some applications will not work in Maemo 5, applications for Maemo OS 2008 (N810)? Where is the incompatibility? Processor, or the OS itself?

sjgadsby

2009-06-11 23:13

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Architengi (Post 295846)

...can anybody explain me why some applications will not work in Maemo 5, applications for Maemo OS 2008 (N810)? Where is the incompatibility? Processor, or the OS itself?

API breaks, so "the OS itself".

Jaffa

2009-06-11 23:15

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Architengi (Post 295846)

Some applications likely will. If they use new Hildon APIs (such as PannableScrollArea or AppMenu), they'll work on an N8x0 in Mer. If they stick to the current Hildon API, they'll work on both an N8x0 and Rover.

However, any apps using Clutter, OpenGL ES and so on will not work on a Maemo 4 device (lack of horsepower, no driver for accelerated 3D and APIs not present). Mer can fix one of those :-/

allnameswereout

2009-06-12 00:57

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thesandlord (Post 295149)

Can someone please explain the advantage of a SIM unlocked phone?

*) You fully paid for a physical product you fully own which contains your often very personal data. You're not in debt paying it monthly off.
*) You can resell the phone (without an ugly branded mark) any time you want.
*) You can toss the SIM card in an other phone, while using your current phone for something else. Useful in emergency situation.
*) When you want to ditch your contract the phone is yours; not partly yours, partly property of telco.
*) Some poeple have ethical issues with certain things sold together. For example, I don't like 'triple play' (tv/radio, phone, internet from 1 provider) because if they want to close you down for whatever reason (valid or not, mistakes on either side do occur) then this severely impacts your communication while previously you could use either one still. You cannot opt to leave one service because you're not happy with it either.

Or hey, just ask some current iPhone 3G users who'd like to update to iPhone 3G S...

Architengi

2009-06-12 06:06

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaffa (Post 295865)

I understand that some N900 applications with OpenGL ES will not work on N810, but will all the applications from N810 work on N900?

Thesandlord

2009-06-12 07:00

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Most apps should work. The API is reverse compatible right? However, I am guessing that a lot will update to the new version, so yeah...

And all N900 apps "should" work under mer, but they will obviously be doing things like openGL with mesa3D (aka software rendering). So, they are not going to all work well...

lma	2009-06-12 08:14

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thesandlord (Post 295951)

API is reverse compatible right?

There are some differences, things being dropped, replaced etc.

gerstavros

2009-06-12 11:21

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

I just mention that except from OOo and Koffice, Maemo natively has Abiword and Gnumeric.

Architengi

2009-06-12 19:05

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjgadsby

>> TexasInstruments OMAP3

Are you inquiring about Nokia and the N800/N810? The N8x0 tablets use TI OMAP 2420 chips.

According to wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM11
Nokia N97 and 5800 use Freescale MXC300-30 (ARMv6) (same as Nokia E71, Nokia E75)
N800, N810 and N95 use Texas Instruments OMAP2420
It is good N900 uses OMAP3 (same as iPhone 3GS and Palm Pre) because is a Cortex ARMv7 - more power.

Is Freescale MXC300-30 and Ti OMAP2420 (both ARMv6) 100% compatible? - they should be because they run the same RISC instruction of ARMv6 specification, but they are build by different manufacturers...

jriihi

2009-06-12 19:09

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

You should have added current generation android 1.5 phone to comparison: HTC Magic (out now already in few countries) or Samsung Galaxy (coming in june or next month). Android market also has already around 5000 programs.

NOTE: These android phones make bulky,ugly,too low battery life HTC G1 look very bad so dont compare anything to that please :)

Architengi

2009-06-12 19:13

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by jriihi (Post 296096)

I don't know much about HTC Magic Android 1.5 device, but if you can compose a column for it, I will edit my first post and I will add that column. What processor is it using? What about the RAM?

Architengi

2009-06-12 19:56

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by debernardis (Post 296086)

“A cigarette is the perfect type of a perfect pleasure. It is exquisite, and it leaves one unsatisfied. What more can one want?” (Oscar Wilde)

"A smartphone!" (me)

Nokia top-notch phone customers have never been left really unsatisfied, because those devices are truly amazing, well built, feature rich and pleasant to at least three out of five senses; but, as you quoted above, a number of guys, including me, think that a higher level of satisfaction will never be pursued. And this, for a legitimate commercial purpose, which is the same of Oscar's cigarette-makers: make their business thrive.

You see, I am still sorely ruminating about the transition from the Nokia 9500 to the E90 Communicator. The 9500 had an excellent operating system (series 80) - you're an expert in this field so I don't need to explain more - but that was ditched in favour of a regression to a more primitive interface which needs more keypresses to get same results, drops copy/paste from browser (! this still calls for vengeance), word/excel compatibility, and lots of refinements which you'll able to remind going back to symbian-related forums of those times.

And this is my pet argument because I've been a Communicator addict; but I bet you have found similar complaints in all those people from AllAboutSymbian (was it AllAboutSeries80 once, didn't it? %^) that you quoted in your answer, for other phones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisse

>> In any case, what exactly would this "perfect" phone be?

IMHO you get a perfect phone when you go on refining and adding features to an already almost perfect phone, without losing the winning points, and that is evolution. Not when you abruptly abandon a well-functioning line and force your customers to a devolution, no matter how you try to hide it.
That is the thing I still hope won't happen with our tablets but is feared by many, here.

quote krisse
>> What about form factors...
>> What if someone wants a phone that...

Come on, Nokia sells *hundreds* of models. They must have an exceptional ability in diversifying their assembling lines. They're already making phones for literaly every taste.
So why don't they do the perfect phone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisse

> And even if a perfect phone was possible, why isn't ANYONE making it right now? Nokia isn't the only phone maker, why isn't Samsung or S-E or LG or Moto or Apple making a perfect phone?

They are reasoning like Nokia maybe. But now comes the exception...

quote krisse
> The biggest flaw in the "perfect phone" conspiracy theory is Apple.
> Apple only makes one phone model at a time, so why are there so many gaps in their phone specs? [...] Why would they release an imperfect phone if a perfect phone was possible?

They have been in mobile phones for a time that's a fraction of that of Nokia, but they're learning.
And they're dangerously (for Nokia) getting close to the perfect phone. Their iterations are in the sense of evolution as I described above. They are not making a whole collection of models, each one lacking something (Oscar Wilde's perfect pleasure); they're building on a single model making it better and better. And the market seems to appreciate :)

Do you know what Apple is doing here?
This is the key of their success. Not the fact that they have compatibility of OS between devices. That could be accomplished having multiple form devices (like one with slide keyboard, one with a bigger 4" screen, one wuth D-Pad, etc).

The KEY strategy here is the unique device (or one that looks the same on all the 3 iPhone versions, and even in iPod).

Why? Isn't better the Nokia strategy to have hundreds of devices in different form factors?

No, I would say the unique device is the best strategy.

This is in our genes, in our DNA, we are wired to copy, imitate, to want only one god, only one star actor, etc. That's why fashion exist, because humanity learns through copying. Copying others.

So, you see people having iPhone form factor all over the place in USA and Canada. The next thing to do is go with the masses. Of course there are few that stand in the current, but the masses will go with THE ONE.

That's why THE ONE has to be unique, and always the same in form. :)

GeneralAntilles

2009-06-12 23:41

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Architengi (Post 296094)

It is good N900 uses OMAP3 (same as iPhone 3GS and Palm Pre) because is a Cortex ARMv7 - more power.

The iPhone 3G S uses a Samsung Cortex A8 SoC, not an OMAP3.

Architengi

2009-06-13 02:37

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles (Post 296181)

quote:
> Nokia N97 and 5800 use Freescale MXC300-30 (ARMv6) (same as Nokia E71, Nokia E75)
> N800, N810 and N95 use Texas Instruments OMAP2420

The iPhone 3G S uses a Samsung Cortex A8 SoC, not an OMAP3.

Is any benchmark application that is compiled for Nxxx, and iPhone to show the performance in the same metrics, to be able to compare if Freescale ARMv6 and OMAP2420 which one is better? And also to compare with OMAP3 and Samsung processor?

Freakair

2009-06-13 05:14

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Architengi (Post 296100)

I don't know much about HTC Magic Android 1.5 device, but if you can compose a column for it, I will edit my first post and I will add that column. What processor is it using? What about the RAM?

Here's a start for the Magic, hope someone here can fill in the missing info or if anything is incorrect can correct it.

1. Qualcomm MSM 7200, 528MHz
2. 512 MB ROM 288 MB RAM
3. Yes
4. Quick office
5. Yes
6. Android-optimised Webkit browser
7. Yes
8. No
9. Yes
10. 320X480
11. ?
12. 320 X 480 15fps
13. Yes
14. Android 1.5 (cupcake)
15. ? 3 maybe
16. Yes
17. ?
18. ?
19. ?
20. 3.2 MP
21. Google apps
22. Not sure there's a page here on it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_...re_development

23. 3.2"
24. Yes (but disabled at kernel right now)
25. Yes
26. No
27. No

That's all I know most of it is 100% on the paper from HTC some is based off web searching as I'm considering buying this phone. (research) Hope that helps you somewhat

jriihi

2009-06-13 17:10

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

If you are considering android phone you can check android market catalog before purchase from here: http://www.cyrket.com/

Dr Tran

2009-06-16 05:53

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

N97 and the N810
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3364/...aa071e95_m.jpg

ARJWright

2009-06-16 13:29

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Tran (Post 297057)

N97 and the N810
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3364/...aa071e95_m.jpg

Dude! Thank you for this image, this is exactly what I've been waiting to see.

gerstavros

2009-06-16 14:28

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

N900 will be almost like N97 in size.

mrojas

2009-06-16 15:27

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerstavros (Post 295997)

I just mention that except from OOo and Koffice, Maemo natively has Abiword and Gnumeric.

With the not so slight difference that the corresponding applications for the iPhone and Symbian do not crash and do not bug.

Seriously. A lot of have been said about the software "advantages" of the N900 is not concrete right now, and so far there is no assurance it will. (Not saying it won't happen either).

GeneralAntilles

2009-06-16 15:32

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrojas (Post 297188)

With the not so slight difference that the corresponding applications for the iPhone and Symbian do not crash and do not bug.

Oh ********. Have you used either platform? Safari on the iPhone crashes more than MicroB and Symbian's third-party scene is a joke.

volt	2009-06-16 15:42

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thesandlord (Post 295149)

Can someone please explain the advantage of a SIM unlocked phone?

Ok, you pay $700 for the phone (v.s. $200) and pay the same for data and voice.

What is the advantage?

If you get to choose your own subscription, you can get a much better (cheaper) subscription than if you go for a packet deal. Often so much cheaper that you will save in the cost of the phone in about 7-8 months.

That's why they lure you with free or cheap phones. Because they make money on you picking those non-optimal subscriptions.

However, it may be more comfortable to pay $100 a month than $1000 up front, but that's a personal preference.

REMFwhoopitydo

2009-06-16 15:48

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

i voted n900, but that votes really only applies to a mythical 4.1" internet tablet which has a sim slot for data contracts.

i want to buy an internet device, not rent a phone service.

gerstavros

2009-06-16 15:54

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrojas (Post 297188)

I have about 100 apps, and these that aren´t stable are claws-mail and some beta apps, such as tear. Of course if you choose only stable repos, maemo is more stable than os-x mobile, window$-mobile and a sympian with 3rd party uknown apps.

mrojas

2009-06-16 16:50

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles (Post 297192)

Oh ********. Have you used either platform? Safari on the iPhone crashes more than MicroB and Symbian's third-party scene is a joke.

I use both in a daily basis. And I stand by my comments. Devices:

Nokia e71 running v100 firmware.
iPhone 2G with the 2nd firmware.
Nokia N800 with the latest Diablo release.

Abiword crashes as soon as I try to open one of my corporate documents (sometimes I have to pull the battery off because the tablet hangs so hard it doesn't reset itself). Gnumeric works so-so until I try to work on a formula across multiple sheets. That doesn't happen on QuickOffice neither in the iPhone or e71. Oh, and they can open Office 2007 documents too (not that I use them, but some co-workers send those).

I know you hate Symbian due to the awful experience with your 5800, however for a lot of people is a good platform with stable, and mature apps.

Edit: I am going to extend a bit my comments with this: A lot of you are rightly enthusiastic about your personal projects or favorite applications or the capabilities of Maemo and the capabilities of the next device. Which is very good, because I myself am interested and that is the reason I bought an N800 and I am posting here.

However there are some very basic, must-do things that Maemo should do if it wants to be taken more seriously, and it is not doing right now, and no one seems to be caring about those. Things that every competitor is doing. Among that: a fully integrated PIM suite with direct and wireless sync to Exchange, Lotus and Google. A set of document editors, to read and create complete documents, spreadsheets and presentations in a fully usable manner. And applications that are not in beta or alpha permanently. Part of the reason many people prefer commercial apps is because they expect them to be solid and to have support, and their money guarantee that (at least solid).

ragnar

2009-06-16 16:55

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

I think the platform war isn't really useful. You can do great stabile apps on Symbian and the iPhone and on Maemo 5: the glory/blame falls much more on the individual app. developer side than on the platform side as such. I think all of them can provide a very stabile experience. :) (As well as an app that crashes the first sign the user is thinking about touching something...)

attila77

2009-06-16 17:30

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

I think part of the problem is that people expect Maemo to be a 'better' Symbian, just like many people on the desktop expect Linux to be a better Windows that Windows. Unfortunately, the distances between these platforms (and I'm not talking just about technical differences) is really large, and while I understand people just wanting to do what they usually do, seldom does fitting tractor tyres on a sportscar give good results.

mrojas

2009-06-16 17:42

Re: N900 compared to iPhone v3, Palm Pre, N97

Quote:

Originally Posted by attila77 (Post 297214)

I agree with this. However, there is a difference between "better" and "equivalent" that needs to be taken in account, I think.

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