Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

I think another huge difference between the iPhone and the Maemo devices is that iPhone was a HUGE project for Apple and they probably had a huge amount of the company working on it at the same time. Nokia's pretty much exclusively phones and Maemo probably didn't get anywhere near as many resources in comparison to Apple.

Also, let's admit it... the entire phone industry was pretty much blindsided by Apple's entry into the cell phone market.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

We can certainly synchronize on that. ;)

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

>As to maturing speeds of iPhone and NITs (simplified) :

Closed developement in business has a deadline set.
When that gets close, code must be delivered
with what features time has allowed.

Open software developement is more like scientific research,
when the code is ripe, it is published.


>As to maemo SDK having a steep learning curve ,
a cynical comment:

Nokia at this stage, where the OS needs manpower,
wants (only) really qualified developers.
And with an easy SDK, there might have been to many programs
complaining about non-compatibility as Nokia presents new hardware.

Once the platform has matured, things could get different . . .

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

As much suck as WinMo was, you'd think that somebody other than Apple would see the gaps and capitalize quickly.

RIM did. Apple did.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

gerbick, your feedback is very appreciated! I do see your points. I'm just trying to explain further why the things at Maemo are in the way they are.

For instance, SDKs sit on top of toolkits. This is why the change to the Qt toolkit has such a big impact for the Maemo SDK. And for the Symbian SDK. Remember our announcement in July and the cross-platform strategy.

Now, offering to developers an SDK based on Qt and also simpler runtimes build on top of it, with a simple path for porting apps to Symbian is a very different story that might entice many developers. Not just core Linux developers but also the mobile developers.

About the speed, it could be faster if that OSS code wouldn't be actually developed in several projects out of Nokia and if Maemo would be the one and only platform of this company. However, I personally believe that is thanks to these factors that the Maemo march is powerful, incremental and capable to reach the highest goals.

Yes, it requires more patience and perseverance (but these are good values leading to success, isn't it) ;)

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

This statement's been bothering me all weekend, and I've realised why: it's short-sighted and puts us in the "always follow" mode.

Instead of investigating the benefits of another platform and why it's been successful in developing lots of apps (some of which most of us would consider "noise"), we just watch what their mass army of developers produce and clone the good stuff?

Can't we entice imaginative developers?

I loved Cube Runner. However I've got an idea for a 3D version using the accelerometers. Writing 3D games is too much up in the air though, with various comments like "stop HIldon Desktop first" through to "use Qt, it makes it easy"; and then there are things like COGL which sound like the best of both worlds. The lack of Open GL-ES testing is also an obvious problem. More leadership needed from Nokia here, methinks.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Considering the topic title, that's important mostly if you are planning Qt presence on the iPhone (at that point will it start to bleed iPhone developers to Qt platforms, Symbian or Maemo, as it will allow developers to address a broader market). I don't think 'just' a shiny SDK in itself is interesting enough (otherwise they'd be already present en masse on WebOS).

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Now that basically the Rover is the only foreseeable GNU/Linux smartphone in the pipeline I'd expect to see the number of developers increase. Hope to see some interesting apps appearing in the platform :D

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

There must be something in my vocabulary that makes you read in such a restrictive way what I'm trying to explain. :)

I was just trying to move away from the idea of 'tens of thousands of apps if you want compare' to a more reasonable 'what is clearly missing if you want to compare'. And that was the only and humble point of my post.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Of course, once we do entice lots and lots of developers to Maemo, we need to make sure the user experience is there for finding stuff. There's an interesting down side exposed in The 35 Best iPhone Apps of the Year (so far):

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

This is all meaningless unless you have got a large enough base of consumers ready to buy stuff. Maemo does not have such a base at the moment and I do not see it getting such a customer base in the closest future. If I am missing something in my predictions, please, correct me. Just like Agent Mulder, I would like to believe. :)

As to the fabled 50k iPhone applications, most of them are probably garbage, making commercial iPhone development kind of a lottery: your chances of reaching commercial success selling iPhone apps are random and pretty low. So, the "strategy" there is to create scores of small silly apps and sell them for $1, with no support implied. This is kind of like buying a bunch of cheap lottery tickets hoping that one of them will win. The similar pattern can be observed in pre-iPhone app stores like Handango. Believe me, this pattern has nothing to do with how an average developer would like to market his applications.

PS: I know how saliva inducing the idea of competing with iPhone is, but if I were to amuse myself with various "Maemo business strategies", I would start with more modest targets:

1. Getting support for traditional MIDP Java applications (zillions available on the market right now) in such a way that MIDP apps written for different screen sizes run well on Maemo (with intelligent scaling) and the controls are tolerable.

2. Figuring out ways for Maemo to uproot RIM in North American markets. This will require implementing the same key business-oriented functionality of RIM but better. RIM isn't very good at software, so this should not be as difficult as competing with Apple.

3. Taking on Windows Mobile and possibly Android.

Can we finally leave "why Maemo is not an iPhone" stuff to the few diehard iPhone owners here and move on to something more constructive?

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

umm your nokia device isn't 100% open there have always been parts drivers mostly that are not open source.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Yes, I know, but most of those closed source parts are stuff that either can't be opened or the work hasn't been done to do so. More and more of the closed pieces are being released as open source.

Also, those closed source pieces weren't restricting what I was doing with the tablet which was the entire point I was making there.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

I believe that (from what we've seen) RX-51 will ship more devices than any other prior mobile device: increasingly mainstream user interface and consumers can understand "phone" better than "Internet tablet".
You're replying to my post, so I'm going to respond as if you were talking to me. I'm under no illusions - Maemo isn't going to compete with the iPhone in the short- or medium-term. If we're lucky we'll get into that second tier with Android and webOS.

I read the subject as "How can we encourage [prospective] iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?". Would this thread make you happier if it was "How can we encourage Android developers to develop on Maemo?" It's still a more developer-successful platform (based on number of apps, ease of getting started and out-of-the-box power of the development environment) than Maemo.

For someone who rails against Java so much, it's odd to see it put at priority #1 on your list; especially since the #1 smartphone platform (Blackberry) uses a different API to MIDP.

This thread was constructive until people started going off in four separate tangents:

• Denial: The iPhone isn't successful. It's full of iFart apps. Pfft (no pun intended)
• Missing the point: iPhone developers are never to going to switch. Maemo has open source developers. They're fine.
• Political stance: Attracting the type of developer the iPhone has would require us to use DRM and the moment that's on my Nokia, Maemo is dead.
• Missing the point (2): You can't compete with the iPhone. Shut up. You're being stupid. You should be asking how we can encourage XXX developers to develop on Maemo (where XXX could, say, equal MIDP)

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

So how does the 'average developer' would like to market his applications anyway?
( Slowly? To a smaller audience? :) -- sorry, jk )

I think the key to AppStore is simply economy of scale. You tap into that, then you unleash a natural force that -everyone- can benefit from. The result is greater than the sum of its parts.

AppStore's commission is a flat 30% whereas Handango starts at 50% if your sales is below $250k. You only get the discount to make their commission at 30% on your sales above $1M.

AppStore's approximate number of users is probably in the 10M range. Considering they've sold above 40M devices (both iphone and touch). Handango, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing much lower than that judging by the unit prices.

Bejeweled 2
AppStore: $2.99
Handango: $9.99

Encyclopedia Britannica World Traveller:
AppStore: $7.99
Handango: $19.99

Pocket Informant (PIM):
AppStore: $12.99
Handango: $29.99

Notice any trends?

It's kind of hard to leave the comparison to iPhone or its ecosystem when it's in the thread title.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

This is pretty strong statement. Have you got any actual data that would confirm it? Could you at least provide the reasoning behind your belief? For comparison, let me provide my resoning of why Maemophone will not be such a huge hit:

1) There is no "buzz" on the Net that preceded iPhone, GooglePhone, and Palm Pre. Few people even know that the next Nokia tablet will be a phone. Hell, not a lot of people know what Nokia Internet Tablet is.
2) As we all know by now, Fremantle UI is transitional. It will be phased out in favor of Qt in the next device.
3) You have probably seen the screenshots of the current Fremantle UI. It pretty much looks like an attempt to simulate S60 with Gtk+, with some touch-based improvements thrown in. Do you really think anyone can be impressed with this?

Out of curiosity, by the "second tier", do you mean the "second tier iPhone", as opposed to "first tier iPhone" from Apple? :) Because once you remove the unhealthy obsession with iPhone from this equation, all these devices become what they are - different cell phones with slightly different (but overlapping) marketing niches.

Not sure why you think that the thread is somehow making me "unhappy", but if you state your question as above, I have got an instant answer for you: All you need to do to encourage Android development on Maemo is to integrate Dalvik and Android frameworks into Maemo desktop environment, so that Android apps run "natively" inside Maemo. This should not be such a difficult task, in fact it will only be a little more difficult than providing a decent MIDP runtime.

That, Jaffa, is because I never let my personal preferences affect my judgment. In the scope of our current discussion, who cares if Java is a bloated rotting corpse that should have never been brought to life in the first place? All we should care about is the size of developer base. MIDP has got a hell of developer base and hundred of applications written, so it is definitely worth supporting in Maemo.

Sorry, but you can't have a constructive thread titled "How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo". You just cannot, ok? It is like "How can we encourage BMW owners sell their BMWs and buy Rovers instead". :) It's not that Rover is such bad a car, but... you know... :)

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

As a developer, I would like to present my applications to as many people as possible, with priority given to people who show interest in the area served by my applications. With 50000 applications, this is nearly impossible to do, although there are few ways in which you can attempt this.

Maybe it is economy of scale for Apple or someone else. For a developer like me, it is just a pointless mess.

My CC processing company takes ~12%. So, I am not sure why I would pay 30% or 50% to have my app included into the same bag with 50k other apps, where only the top apps are visible to users.

This is of no importance if your app is not being presented to these users.

[Comparison of AppStore with Handango skipped: as a developer, I do not see the point in using either, see above for explanation]

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Would you mind to tell me your method to showcase your app to this 50k select clientele and how much that costs you, in approximate relation % to your sales?
(So we can make a quick comparison to the quoted "flat 30% cost" of AppStore)

I think you've just lowered Apple's number by 12%. Credit card processing fees is already included in their 30% flat rate. So, for the remaining 18% of your revenue, Apple provides application hosting, delivery (with a mobile client to boot), (select) marketing and order processing which integrates directly to your IDE.

On top of this, you can still work on your own marketing from a website somewhere and let them do the hosting and delivery so you don't have to pay for the transport bandwidth.

Yes, I'm very interested in your methods. Awaiting your more detailed explanations..

PS: 12% seems EXTREMELY high for cc processing fees. I think most large retailers gets charged less than 3%. This may yet be another example of economy of scale, or lack thereof.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

I have got my own website and try to get my apps reviewed by relevant blogs and news sites. it also helps to send updates info to news sites. Costs me nothing.

I have done it for you - it is 12% vs 30%. Apple does nothing to present my app to users. it simply throws it into the sam bag with other apps. This does not justify extra 18%. And no, I am not interested in "content delivery and order processing from IDE". I can do both via a website.

May I inquire about the nature of your interest? Are you also a software developer? What commercial software have you developed?

I would like to know of a service that takes lower percentage while providing order placement and processing interface on the web. If you know of such a company, do not hesitate to tell.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Sorry, it was a typo - which I just spotted before reading your reply. Shows that even careful re-reading and previewing of a post doesn't prevent mistakes.

It should have been:

Sorry for the confusion.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

I'm still of the mind that Maemo is better off focusing on quality over quantity. Given the bewildering number of disparate iPhone apps, the platform looks like a potential victim of its own success.

This is for Apple to manage. Their challenge is to enable a variety of exploration possibilities using their store, so that the 99 cent "crap apps" don't dominate and preclude major development. It's certainly doable with the right interface and database under the hood. I guarantee you Amazon.com would figure it out. ;)

Where Maemo can potentially trump Apple is, again [sound of dead horse being beaten] with the strength of a well-supported community. Diverse, talented teams can create applications above and beyond what a lone coder can (with rare but reasonable exceptions like Maemo Mapper, which actually did have some contributions if I recall correctly). The main requirement is leadership. Fortunately that has been improving.

I am trying to capture as much of this subject as I can in my proposed Summit presentation and this sort of dialog is extremely helpful.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Woohoo! Looks like something's up! Peter just tweeted:

"Srikanth Raju, Director Forum Nokia Marketing, will tell us on Maemo Summit about how they will accelerate apps development on Maemo"

Srikanth's talk is now sched for 17:30-18:00 on Day 1 of the Maemo Summit.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Palm just announced that they are now accepting WebOS apps, for a mid-September rollout. For commercial apps, they will also do a 70/30 thing similar to the App Store.

Here are their criteria for accepting apps (short but sweet):

• Apps should be useful and engaging to users.
• They need to have an appealing design and user interface aligned with Palm UI guidelines.
• They are written specifically for webOS and not delivered through the browser.
• They leverage webOS platform and device capabilities, for example, notifications, multitasking/background processing, location services, accelerometer.
• They have acceptable performance and response time on the device; apps with slow UI response or sluggish performance will be rejected.
• Applications that consume excessive power on the device will also be rejected.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Love the performance and excessive power rejection clause :)

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

I'm a newbie to OpenGL, ES or otherwise, and I'm confused at what the problems are. I found this pessimistic bug report, but I was wondering if you or anyone else can shed some more light or links on the current state of OpenGL and Fremantle. Thanks.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Ok, sorry for misunderstanding. "Will sell more than previous tablets" statement does not tell us much in the frame of this thread though: in order to even attempt competition with iPhone (or Crackberry, or even Nokia's own S60 devices), the new tablet should sell in numbers comparable to these devices. Until this happens to a Maemo device, all talk about wooing developers is pointless.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Yeah, unless we're a mega success, there's just no point in trying to grow the community at all. :p

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

iPhone/etc. users is not how you will grow the community in this case. Unless you are mega success, you should grow community by converting Symbian and MIDP users/developers, i.e. guys that would naturally want to upgrade by switching.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

That's a vicious circle. Without the sufficient number of users (and thus devices) there would be no developers on the iPhone, either. No iPhone/MIDP/Symbian dev will switch to Maemo until they believe there are enough users to make their efforts worthwhile. That's why even the basic device/app offer has to be impressive enough to 'infect' as many innocent users as possible, and use that feedback loop later to strengthen the platform.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

It is not a vicious circle. You start small, and at first you attract/migrate users and developers who are already likely to migrate to your platform. In the case of Maemo, these are going to be Symbian/S60, WinMo, and of course various Javaphone people. By doing this, you are growing user base and developer base. Once your platform (Maemo in our case) is established on the market, you may try to take over a niche or two, such as business people using RIM devices. Of course, you will need right applications for that, and agreements with cell phone operators as well. And only when you reach a big enough cloud, only then can you take on such odious targets as iPhone. Coincidentally, by that time Jobs will safely occupy a spot at some Californian cemetery, making the competition easier for you.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Our definitions of 'small', 'established' and 'vicious circle' obviously differ by quite a margin :)

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Yes, you seem to call spiral a "circle" :)

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Hey guys, let's not bite off more than we can chew here, huh? How about we concentrate on just making the platform attractive, viable and alive first, hmm?

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

I think much of this thread has been about attracting a set of developers exclusionary to another set of developers. I dont still understand why we have to have a exclusionary mentality to attracting any set of developers.

So what if iPhone developers are odious. So what if Java developers don't create bloatware, so what if WinMo devs are not creative .... its not about developers attached to their platform, its bringing in developers based on Maemo's strength.

There's nothing to be gained by excluding any group and not trying to attract all kinds of developers. Ultimately when any of those other platform developers start developing for Maemo, they are all Maemo developers.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

This sort of 'keep it niche' mentality reminds me of the goth/emo/geeks/ outcasts in highschool. Or the 'l33ts' on IRC.

Nothing wrong with competing in the mainstream, don't be afraid of the crowd :D

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

That's not what I'm saying.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Because in the real world (evidently located outside this thread) attracting each different group of developers takes different actions and all these actions cost time and money. so, naturally, you have to prioritize by cost and expected conversion rate.

Of course, in the imaginary world of bloggers and forum posters, you can get 'em all, instantly, and for free, just by crying loud.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Well, that depends on what are you crying out loud... :D

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

Good luck with that. Seems like Symbian just isn't that popular with developers either.

Re: How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?
 

@zerojay: Sorry, that wasn't directed to your previous post. I agree with your message, actually.

@gerbick: Wow, I didn't know RIM has that many developers working on their platform. I do have a BB Bold and I haven't found any apps really 'exciting' on it unfortunately.. even basic PIM apps seem to be bested by WinMo or even PalmOS offerings (Agendus). I guess this is something to look forward to.

After reading about Symbian's performance and looking at Maemo's languishing movements... is it just me or does Nokia not know how to deal with software developers..