Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Nokia produces part of it. Saying "Nokia produces the software" won't make all GNU, Linux and Gnome contributors happy.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Agree, or why cant the iPhone 2G or 3G run OpenGL games? The fact is that when there are hardware changes, it makes it hard to get support for devices without that hardware .. Mobile OSes are not modular enough yet to be able to abstract away all of the hardware and have a more hw-independent OS.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Well, actually, binaries are optimized to take advantage of certain hardware features, and something like GPS is very easy to add via Bluetooth, and then the device can say 'I have my default capabilities, including X' (GPS over SPP) hence allowing GPS applications. Reason it doesn't on Appel, is purely commercial/contol_freak based. With Maemo thats different, although one cannot run ARMv7 binaries on ARMv6. Since firmware is for individual model, might as well be that iPhone 3GS runs optimized binaries where iPhone 3G does not. Also, the devices aren't that much different, so its easy to keep supporting legacy hardware. And, the original iPhone is now 2 years old. (I find 2 years an appropriate time for official support.) At least with Maemo most of source is open, and Maemo is modular enough to add support for new hardware. Not that I find it quite useful to be able to connect a CD writer to N8x0, but ppl have done it, using Linux drivers. And many more examples exist, just now without USB host mode is a bit different.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

The builds/updates for each iPhone is built for that hardware iteration. At the start of the build per OS level dictates which one it will be applied to:

• iPhone 3.1 download (iPhone1,1_3.1_7C144_Restore.ipsw, 241 MB)
• iPhone 3G 3.1 download (iPhone1,2_3.1_7C144_Restore.ipsw, 242 MB)
• iPhone 3GS 3.1 download (iPhone2,1_3.1_7C144_Restore.ipsw, 306 MB)

What that means is that Apple builds out an OS that includes/excludes what's not there in the hardware/firmware.

Now, what does that truly mean? Apple's maintaining 3 builds at the moment, more in the future perhaps. But from the original iPhone to the latest, they all can run OS 3.1.2. The whole speed factor - that's due to going from EDGE to 3G, to 3G with CPU and more RAM enhancements. To be 100% honest, I've played with both the 3G and the 3GS... I didn't see that much of a difference in most surfing. And for the most part - I'm an atypical user - I tend to use more wifi surfing than 3G.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Hi everybody,

From what I can understand, given how quickly phone hardware is growing, I can understand the difficulty in providing support to an old phone model. Having said so, as a Linux user for several years, having the latest version of a certain distro doesn´t necessarily change things dramatically.

In other words, I know many Ubuntu users who are still on Hardy, yet they still get updates on their kernels, they still get many application upgrades, and most importantly, even if those new versions for applications are not added to their repositories, they can still go after them an install them. Following the same logic, a Jaunty user wouldn´t suffer from not moving to Karmic, because s/he can still download and install most of the new features in Karmic (Firefox 3.5.x, Empathy, etc). Obviously, some of the OS specific stuff that is part of Karmic (software store, different notifications, default to ext4, Grub2, etc) would not be available in Jaunty, but the impact on the end user is not big, IMHO.

Is that analogy valid for an N900 user? If the case, a Maemo 5 user should still be able to enjoy 90% of what a Maemo 6 user will have available, right?

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Can I get a quote where Apple promises that the next version of iPhoneOS will be backwards compatible with the previous devices ? Or is it anecdotal as in 'it was so up until now so we guess that's the norm' ?

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

@attila77: it's anecdotal, but they've done that for 3 'generations' now..

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

The whole App Store is based on what devices contain which hardware features.

Quite typical for Apple.

However, like I said, that can be a disadvantage if you use e.g. Bluetooth or USB to get more features than orig device such as GPS.

No iPhone supports hardware OpenGL, the 3G S supports hardware OpenG ES, version 2.0.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

The only feature in Maemo 6 that I've heard about so far that I really care about being missing in Maemo 5 on the N900 is compatibility with portrait orientation across the entire platform. Even Nokia's Maemo devices vice president Ari Jaaksi admitted at the Maemo Summit, according to Ars Technica, that the lack of portrait support is a real weakness. Indeed, to me it seems like the one area where the N900 is a real regression from other existing devices. It doesn't seem like there's any technical reason why these sort of features couldn't work on the N900, it has an accelerometer after all. I think it would be a big mistake for Nokia not to provide some sort of upgrade to cover these features in the N900.

I think the sort of more advanced users who are attracted to this sort of device, will have higher expectations and if they feel simply abandoned by Nokia that will not be a good fist step with Maemo. Nokia needs to please the early adopters, to help generate interest and buzz about Maemo. I also think, as others have indicated in this thread, that as phones become more and more like desktop computers, people do bring expectations with them from that experience, like software upgrades (precisely because the experience becomes more and more about the software, rather than the hardware).

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Technically, I'd say they have done it once... The iPhone 3G was not that more different (IIRC a different radio and AGPS, that's as much difference as there is between the N800 and N810), so the only real hardware change was when they switched to CortexA8 with the 3GS. I wonder if the Fremantle compatibility would have been any different if the TI drivers were available when that decision was made.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Agreed

I think Maemo may suffer from taking this step when Android is already strong. Nokia should realise that and make an extra effort to please the community and attract developers. Lots of people from the Linux community are waiting anxiously for the N900 to be released, but if it turns out to be just a "prototype" for what´s to come when Maemo6 is released, I think early adopters will turn their backs on Nokia forever.

I hope they are smart enough to provide enough continuity to N900 users... After all, we are talking about a very expensive gadget, one you don´t want to through away after 1 year!

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

What exactly would you like Nokia to do? They have given out N900s to hundreds of developers, they are constantly working on improving the developer tools. They have given plenty of information on what's to come in the next version so that the developers can prepare.

I don't know if N900 will run Maemo 6, but if I had to take a guess I would say it won't be supported officially. But still, would you have preferred them to skip Maemo 5 and N900 completely and move straight to Maemo 6? The "Who will ship first? Pandora or Nokia Tablet"-thread would be going forward at full steam for a year more.

There will be big changes in Maemo 6 compared to Maemo 5. If they are doing it, it's probably for the better. They still have a chance to do big breaks like moving from GTK+ to Qt but it will be a lot more difficult after Harmattan. I personally would hate if compromises would have to be made in Harmattan just for it to run on older hardware.

I think early adopters are generally aware of these realities but still choose to get an N900 because it is what works for them and they know it's not going to suddenly stop working after a Maemo 6 is released!

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

"Prototype for what's to come"? Ha!

It might actually have a subset of the N900 features. You just don't know.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

In my opinion, if they are making all this noise about the N900 being more a little computer than a mobile phone, and about the strenghts of Maemo being almost a full blown Linux implementation, it´s hard to understand that such device would be condemned to such short life and suffer from the same shortcommings as other "just mobile phones" out there.

I mean, in practical terms, a cheap new (yet powerful) Acer laptop today costs around 500 euros, and you may even find cheaper offers. Obviously, not only is it a much more powerful device, but you could easily use such laptop for 3 of 4 years without an issue, always using the latest from the Linux community...

How can Nokia justify no extended development support for an N900 considering how much they are charging for it and how they are advertising it? Come on, they want this to look like a real breakthrough, so it better be treated as such...

And you are definitely assuming a LOT about early adopters. I don´t deny some people can afford an N900 now and assume such important shortcommings, but I am sure many people are hesitating to buy an N900 due to its uncertain future, and I am among them.

At the end of the day, we are talking business here. Nokia has an opportunity now to start on the right foot, build a very strong user base which is full of satisfied customers, then build on that. If they try to attract users at all costs, they may end up with a lot of people feeling left out, and we all know how powerful that can be.

I really hope they take care of their users and prioritise their interests over having the latest technology.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Relax, I am not assuming anything. "If" states that´s a condition. Just giving my opinion about a potential outcome.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Don't forget the different delivery channel for the Maemo OS - it's a binary that gets 'flashed' onto the device. It ain't like a linux distro that can accumulate a DVD-worth of legacy cruft to support Pentium3 machines onwards. Size constraints are a very significant factor.

If Maemo6 is well architected, then it may be reasonable to expect an N900 build to be hacked, stripping away any N920-specific hardware dependencies (multitouch frex), yet retaining the desktop sophistications that are envisioned.

Maybe.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

The answer is simple:

When has Nokia EVER backported a newer (major version, not just bug fixes) firmware onto older hardware? .. NEVER

I doubt the reason's have been technical but solely about $$$. Encourage older users to buy newer devices, less testing and support for Nokia, designing the same software for both resistive and capacitive.. etc etc.

Unless it allows them to make more $$, I really don't see them doing it.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me....they ain't a charity. We buy a device in a box...not a lifetime commitment.

Their enlightened stance on open source software is what gives the user community the greatest hope for longevity. I applaud them heartily for that.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Um, two Hacker Editions and, well, Mer (if indirectly) seem to refute your point. :)

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

isn't that a community effort instead of Nokia? (dunno, just asking)

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

You could argue for Diablo on N800 as well. For the clock speed if nothing else :)

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

It is, but my point is that it's a community effort that Nokia's providing support to with the intention of helping to get newer software on older hardware.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Maemo 6 will have features which depend on DRM. It is questionable whether those are going to work on Nokia N900. They require a public as well as a private key which is based on hardware and secret. In theory, it can be made to work, but in practice it'd take a lot of effort and I wouldn't count on it. So I think a community-based distribution with backports from Maemo 6 is much more likely.

Personally, I don't find one year of software support long enough for a (mobile) device. Especially not a high-end device. I expect products to work longer than 1 (one) year, and if the product is unsupported after a year, that is not a good thing. Think of e.g. lack of backported fixes from Gecko upstream.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Why aren't anyone complaining or trying to complain that Symbian phones are made "obsolete" when a next device is published? If you who complain about compatibility with maemo6&n900 think N900 is not enough, why even waste your breath on it? Or this community? Is it like Mad Max apocalypse for you when each time you find a gas station you start to wonder should you or shouldn't you fill up just because you have no idea where is the next gas station and refill.

I know users would like more support than a year, but IF Nokia's stance is "get this or don't", would you rather have no N900 at all? I am no heavy user so this might not be as important to me as long time NIT users, but when I get my N900, I use it as long as it is usable or I want new one. Do you think release of Maemo6 makes N900 less usable? At all?

And yeah, I wouldn't mind if Maemo6 could be installed on N900, but that would be a bonus, if it doesn't fit, it is not making N900 lesser device now.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Hi, there is another thread fundamentally duplicated in the Maemo 6 forum. What about moving this thread there, closing one thread and concentrate the discussion in the other one? I have commented to some concerns here and there but it's impossible to know who has read what. Thanks!

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Well, I really don't understand that "take it or leave it" position, to be honest. I think discussion forums have that name for a reason... We are just exchanging opinions here...

Honestly, with its price tag and capabilities, I consider the Nokia N900 a professional device, not just another phone you through away when the new one comes up with 0.5 more megapixels in its camera!...

I don't know, I don't compare the N900 to any other phone out there, much less to any previous Symbian model, because I think it is in a league of its own. From my perspective, buying an N900 is like buying an expensive BMW... You are set to have different expectations than someone with a standard car, don't you?

I guess the N900 is a top of the line model and I expect everything around it to be top notch as well. Of course I know the device will work beyond one year, even if no Maemo6 migration is available, but as a customer I would be disappointed.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Hey, good idea... I will post in the Maemo 6 thread from now on.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Because my Symbian phone is well maintained, or at least much better, and because we're already seeing changes in better Symbian support.

I am not complaining about support in the sense you refer to. I'm not saying Maemo 6 should be ported to Nokia N900. I complain about lack of support for security and reliability issues; these should be maintained at least for 2 years.

Optionally, via a support contract. If you install a Linux distribution you'll also get these updates.

In my case this is no new concern. This was a concern I had back with Nokia N8x0 as well, as I observed Gecko holes not being backported in MicroB. Now that the Nokia N900 has 3G this concern is even more important.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

android/iphone/winmo all offer upgrades(not bug fixes, but actually upgrades) to their software, i wish nokia would do the same

nevertheless i am buying the n900 for what it does NOW

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Just to clarify, this will not be true for some of us. Yes, the kernel may have flash size contraints, but I can make init do what ever I want, with or without an initfs. Thus, my cruft can be over 45 GB.

Only memory and processor speed are limited; not OS storage space. I have more cruft on my n800 than I do on my desktops.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Backwards-compatibility (hardware as well as software) is a two-edged sword. I think that a prominent OS has driven that point home rather well....
I'm personally torn on it; I like the rapid advance but would like to get the new hotness on current hardware.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Solaris?
Eagle eyes.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Exactly, I don't believe that there is some hardware limitation that just makes it impossible for Nokia to create a version of Maemo 6 that works on the N900.

It also may well be in Nokia's financial interest to do so. Obviously Maemo, and perhaps especially Maemo 6, is Nokia's answer to the iPhone. One of the things that has made the iPhone so profitable is the app store and iTunes, a source a revenue that extends well beyond the sale of the device itself. So you want to keep people engaged and happy with the device they have, so they keep coming back to purchase the other software based goodies. If people feel like they're being left behind after only a year, on the N900, their next device may well be an iPhone, WinMo phone, Android phone. They won't have as much of a reason to stick with Nokia and Maemo and so Nokia will lose the revenue stream from that customer that would go to the Ovi store, etc. Look at the crazy dedication people have to Apple products. Apple doesn't get there by leaving people behind. But if leaving people behind is what Nokia does with the N900, then it will risk remaining a niche product like the N95 and other high end smart phones of Nokia's past, rather than break out the way the iPhone and Android have.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

+1

Spot on!

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

If I were to guess at the one resource that N900 may not have sufficiently for the next software generation.... it would be RAM.

256MB is a tight squeeze for modern software.

That's less than my 11 years old laptop!

(It had swap space too like the N900, so I think that probably cancels out.)

I've got Firefox 3.5 running on my current laptop (4 years old), and it's using 329MB virtual / 95MB resident memory with just 9 tabs in 4 windows open, none of them heavy (just forums and text articles with usual decoration), and only opened 2 hours ago (Firefox leaks memory over time).

So although I'm expecting the browser to run well on the N900, I'm not expecting to be able to open many windows, unless it uses a lot less memory than Firefox 3.5 per window.

Given the rate at which new software uses more and more memory, I wouldn't be at surprised if Maemo 6 apps need 512MB or 1GB of RAM to run usefully, and struggle with heavy swapping on the N900.

Just, y'know, guessing...

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Out of interest, what operating system? Most modern operating systems are designed to use as much RAM as available, so using those numbers as a benchmark to determine how capable a machine with less RAM would be.

For example, the WebKit-based browser on my 8GB desktop machine is using 584.5MB of real memory and 1.04GB of virtual memory. So, clearly, WebKit wont run on the 256MB N900, right? ;)

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

I don't think that memory will be the primary issue here. Even if Maemo 6 is somewhat more memory intensive, it seems the n900 currently has enough memory that the device would still be usable. That said, I have seen cases where new versions of operating systems decrease memory usage. Happened on my netbook where after replacing hardy with karmic, memory usage at boot went from 200 MB to 150 MB.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

I think Apple is a bad example because even though their OS runs on all the iPhones the iPhone hasn't changed that much. Faster processor, more storage, camera, but what is really different between the models? The screen resolution is one of the lowest in the smartphone arena, still doesn't run Flash, just got copy and paste, MMS, GPS. Apple innovated with the first iPhone, not much after.

It's easy to support older hardware when you don't change much with the new hardware. Lets see Apple add a 800x480 screen and see how much backwards compatibility is maintained.

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Ubuntu 9.10 - Karmic Koala.

It's not really like that. OSes try to use all the available RAM for caching files and other things, but applications running on the OS don't try to use all the available RAM :-) And I was measuring the RAM used by Firefox.

However, Firefox (and other web browsers) may be a rare example of applications which do use more RAM depending on the amount you have, because browsing is so cache dependent, and it might also use more RAM when you have a larger screen.

:-) Well, seriously, how many tabs/windows can you open on your N900 (if you have one) to random typical web pages?

I agree, Gecko != Firefox too. Sorry, mention of Firefox may have been a distraction.

More to the point, a laptop with 256MB cannot run very much these days, with any current major desktop OS. (Yes, ones which are optimised for small memory will work). That means the mobile OS is somewhat different in architecture as well as different usage and capabilities, to fit everything into that much.

Which means it's quite possible Maemo 6 may need more, just from wanting to do different things with it.

Of course it might use less if Qt is as good as I've heard ;-)

Re: Maemo 6 on N900
 

Exactly
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