Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Kathy, I do that on my blog sometimes using just the method you show, making sure to attribute the quotes. It's not THE solution but it's A solution... for those few reading anyway. ;)

Oh, and based on your growth here you can now call yourself Rev E Kathy. :D (yeah, yeah, I know that's not the original meaning :p)

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

That's quite a bit more in depth than I was thinking. I was pretty much ignoring the complaints about "noise" on the mailing because.. to me.. even the "noise" is the community.

All I thought was needed was a medium that makes forums posts from the mailing lists.. and sends emails to the mailing list from forum post. (something like NNTP I think) No need to filter anything because as far as I'm concerned it all the community. Mailing list people love their mailing lists because they can filter ... well.. filter "Orange Box". *shrug*

I really don't think we need something that would nearly be someone's full time job just so a handful of people on either end of the spectrum can keep their special 'tools'.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Relaunching the Wiki Action Group
Scheduling of Sprint Meetings
Sprint task: Refine the karma system
Maemo community calendar events project
#maemo IRC cloaks
Suggested colour change for visited links
Brainstorm: useful?
A business case for Maemo

and many more

These kinds of things are what causes problems like in the past. Where a whole new color sheme is decided for the forums and nobody knows its coming, because it happened on the mailing list.

This is the one reason I ran for council, and was asked to run for council.

The more people who get involved in these discussions the better the community will be.

At the same time, all the people who say they will not use the forums are already missing discussions.

Community translations of Maemo software
Maemo Community outreach programs
Maemo Greeters Pilot
Poll: Is it time to re-structure talk.maemo.org ?
Developers wanted for paid freelance
Unicode Preferences Election
Fosdem 2010

and many more. Imagine if we all started working together what could be accomplished.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I just have to point out.. this was the reason I left the forums several months ago.

Not because of the change.. but because there appeared to be no notification or discussion of it.. and after it happened - there didn't seem to be any acceptance in at least providing an option for the "old" layout to those of that that preferred it. Reggie most excellently fixed the latter part (all I use is the dark theme), but unfortunately after I had had enough.

Now I finally understand where that came from...

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I'm gonna reword that:

"The more people who contribute constructively and help move these discussions forward the better the community will be."

:D

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

It's more than a couple, and the contributions of those individuals have been invaluable over the past 5 years. Not people I would write off lightly.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

An interesting position to take, beyond talking on these forums, where have you been contributing to the community? :)

You do realize, though, that a number of these people are paid contributors whose time I'd rather not see wasted browsing Talk for hours a day.

I'd go out on a limb and say that inconveniencing others for your own benefit isn't a particularly productive way to encourage community communication.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

And I don't think you're seeing my specific position on the matter. I agree that people shouldn't be discarded.. as long as there is someone willing to host a forum, and a mailing list.. you can have both. I don't really agree shutting one or the other down is a good idea.

What I do believe though, is there should be an official communication channel. If that is chosen to be the forums.. then anybody who chooses not to participate on the forums is opting not to be heard (by the majority, and officially) unless they hire themselves a relay.

I'm not saying they need to browse all day and keep up on these threads, or even participate in the pissing contests.. however if the people you're talking about (paid contributors and what not) have an opinion or suggestion on something to improve or whatever.. and they can't be bothered to make a single thread or post about it.. then it doesn't really seem as if it's that important to them. Evidently, not using the forum, a very useful tool for a very large portion of the community - is more important than whatever issue they are trying to raise.

Understand though.. that this works the other way. If the mailing list would be selected as an official channel - then if someone cares to say something important they can do so through the mailing list. If they can't be bothered to set that up.. then it's obviously not that big of a deal.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Here's one example of a great support thread of someone being paid by Nokia and yet using the forums effectively:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35136

The mailing list would not have worked on this case.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I don't believe 2) can really work. different media work differently and form that that's the reason a chose a certain one for a specific task(mail,irc,forum).

The N900 gives people the FULL INTERNET experience nothing less and that is what makes it great. compromises are bad :p

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

. . . and completely irrelevant to the type of discussion that community involves.

That case isn't particularly applicable here, nor do I see how you arrive at this conclusion.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

It is quite relevant. The primary target was the end-users, the end-users reside mainly in the forums, the decision to discuss the problem at Talk was correct.

Should you have a counter-point on every topic?

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Official communication with whom? The maemo.org staff? The official communication channel is the mailing list. The council? Well, they've outlined their communication channels on the wiki. Nokia? Nokia Care.

It's not raising issues that's the problem, it's participating in the discussion. Their participation is what I value and we wont get it if we close down the mailing list and move all community discussion here.

But, really, we're going around in circles here. We arrived at the conclusion to this discussion months ago:

Closing down either the mailing list or the forum isn't an option, so we're left with finding a way to synchronize information between tho two tools. So let's move past argument for argument's sake and figure out a technical solution to the problem (locking this thread and starting a new one may be the best way to do that).

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

We're discussing community discussion here, not end-user support.

I could drag in another dozen threads from the mailing lists that "prove" that it's a better medium for developer discussions, but where does that get us here? We get that you love the forums; however, posting examples of why they're "better" doesn't really get us anywhere productive in this discussion. :)

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

If I'm reading Reggie right, that distinction is moot. The point is made a notch higher.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I see. Sorry, my definition of 'community' includes end-user discussion/support. And I was merely pointing out that someone being paid by Nokia can use their paid time to use the forums if they can improve their product.

EDIT: Exactly Randy. Sorry, we were posting at the same time.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Ok well I guess I'm a bit out of my depth here.. as you said I thought we were discussing communications for the community.

Now.. I guess.. what exactly defines the community is up in the air, I presume?

There is obviously a similarity between what -community and this community subforum are meant to discuss... that is the tie that I am referring and saying one or the other should marked as "official" for whatever purpose these two avenues are meant to discuss.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

As Dillinger said, he robs banks because that's where the money is.

To reflect the will of the community, you have to go where the community is.

That is on the fora, not on the mailing lists, as a rule.

In fact, there are two communities. Their opinions often clash. To choose between official forums and mailing lists would be to pick a winning community and a losing community. I don't think that would be good for anyone.

I preferred the official recognition of two communities that existed when they were divided into independent sites. Then disagreement was recognized as natural, and negotiation and diplomacy were the right ways to cope.

I doubt that any unification scheme will work, for reasons one can deduce from what GA is saying.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

No. I want the mailing-list.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

It's yours then. Keep it secret. Keep it safe.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Thanks, GeneralAntilles, for reminding me of the wiki, where Tim Samoff added the following last June:

So I guess the decision has been made?

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I saw that, but didn't like to mention it. ;)

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I think my mistake was opening this topic for discussion. It seems to have made a lot of people angry.

The proper thing to do would be to begin doing as it says in the wiki.

So I think the Council will begin using this forum for organizational purposes, announcements involving discussion and general community discussion and we'll post a link to the discussion on the maemo-community list.

Others can continue to use the maemo-community mailing list as they wish for the time being until the technical difficulties of merging the two channels are worked out.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

OK, beeing away for half a day and there is various new input on the list and forum. I try to summerize (without quoting :-/).

Here are my points (again) and comments.

I never suggested to close TMO. I never spoke about US or THEM. I value (some) discussions and information on the mailing list and in fact I value (some) information in TMO, too. I do see differences in the topics on TMO and on the mailing list. However as a developer I'm interested in the mailing list (which is mostly in the mailing list, but not always, for example there are certain threads in TMO that helped me getting Knips working (somehow) under N900!) but in the same time I'm of course also a user so I'm interested in talk topic, too (for example experiences with the recent OTA updates). It *may* be that the signal to noice ratio is different (difficult to decide because different technoligy used make it difficult to judge) but that is *not* a problem for me - if I have the right technology. I value the TMO community as much as the mailing list community (and I think this is a bad sentense because I do not feel like the mailing list community but just "community"). TMO aims at a different part of the community (possibly named interested followers, but in the end naming is not important) but they are also required to get the community and the whole maemo project grow.

For aim is to browse as much information as possibly as quickly as possible. It is not only the ocmmunity forum/list I'm interested in, it is also user forums. I want that information, too.

I do see fragmentation as a problem. I also do feel myself as a victim of it for a very long time. Problems started long ago at the time people discussed my softwar ewithout me knowing it. I would like to have a solution for this now for a very long time. So the initial intention to discuss the problems is OK.

It is correct that noone (now) wants to close maemo-developers or maemo-users. So perhaps it may look like this discussion is over-reacting and we could just keep everything as it is and everything will be fine. I don't think that this is true. This topic discusses with the community list as an example a topic that is fundamental to the comunity. So this is the point in time and space where we should find a solution for, else problems will not disapear but will increase over time.

Yes I do fear that closing the community list will possibly decrease the traffic in users and developers, too. It may be possible that sometime in the future we wil have the same discussion again about that mailing list, too. But that is not my point. I'm not discussing because of my fears but because of a fundamental problem that has the be solved.

My arguments against TMO are not because it is TMO or because it is in orange instead in black o rbecause it is a forum. My problem is the inherent functionalty and the way it works. This also includes even psychological effects (like the traffic and the speed of communication which I would compare to chatting and similar online technologies suggests that everything agreed within 24 hours is an consense. I thinks this is wrong and I think a slower communication channnel like a mailing list suits better because it betters work for a world wide community with different habbits and timezones). My fundamental argumnetations is that using TMO just takes too much time (and yes, I'm generalizing from closing community mailing list, as told the fundamental problem is a more general one, see above).

I have used TMO again and again, I have posted in it. I have tested it and I know about what I'm talking about. It is not about me ignoring TMO. It is about TMO not working for me.

To be more concrete: I'm working (more than) fulltime as a professional senior developer. I have a girlfriend living 120 Km away, and we only see on weekend. That leaves around 2 - 2 1/2 hours me possibly working on my open source projects which are currently very much centered around maemo.Reading my mails takes around 1/2 hours, so that leaves around 1 1/2 - 2 hours for developing. Funny enough that is about the timespan I have to invest to get any development done, since most of my tasks need that time for a reseearch, development, test, result cycle. Having less time does not mean I'm doing nothing but makes me much more unproductive because I have to jump back into above already started development cycle/iteration, reducing my effective productivity to about 1/2 hours or even less.

Experience also shows that I have to monitor TMO regulary (nearly every day) and that I need have to spend around 1 hour or even more to scan relevant information. Experience also shows that if I stop looking at TMO for 3-4 days, I'm lost. Beeing in holiday for 2 weeks, I need around 1-2 hours (AFAIK even less, speaking of >1000 mails) to get all my mails scanned.

Getting me to switch to TMO would mean: My developing productivity would drastically decrease. I would likely switch from a productive community member to an unproductive member. The alternative would be that I would loose contact to the rest of the community (a feel I already have). IT is possible that someday I just will disappear because of that.

Because of that I urgently request the council to recognize this problem as a problem and do something against it. For me synchronizing forum and mailing list seem a valid technical solution. I do however havn't seen the council in this thread react on this wish neither did they explain why it is not here nor why it should be possible. They just seem to ignore this solution and insist on either closing or not closing the list. This will IMHO not solve the problem!

I'm still very unhappy that council members words might suggest that they may have not problem with loosing certain parts of the community that (as far as they have participated in this thread) at least I see as productive and/or longstanding members. Now droping the request and just say "OK, we keep it as it" is is too late, since as told above this discussion is just a placeholder for a more general discussion about a very, very real problem. For me this is a sign of weakness, not enough activity and not listening enough to the community. Please recognize that we are talking about a real problem you have to solve anyway (with increasing traffic in TMO, too, fragmentation is a problem even there, too!).

I'm well aware that synchronizing TMO and the mailing list will increase the traffic. So what? This is is a separate problem that can be solved by different aproaches (like more lists for more concrete topics). There is increasing traffic anyway, so we have to solve this problem anyway. I do not fear this and I will take a look a technical soolutions to handle this (like learning a few more thunderbird keyboard shortcuts :-)).

I find the idea of a weekly report about hot topics a good idea and it will help me take a look a topics I have missed, but I thinks it is only a second level solution in that it helps to ease the symtoms but it will not cure the patient. Especially because some discussion is already over when it arrives :-/

I hope I also speak for all the people that were against closing the list and instead fill the urgent request to technical solution to get the community united in their communication channels again.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I spent my insomniac hours last night with a question: why?
Why is this a problem? Why do we need a change anything? What’s the root of all this.

Framstag used the word ‘fragmentation’. Is the Maemo community fragmented? You bet it is. There’s old guard v n900bs, developers v end users, happy people v complainers, mailing list users v t.m.o. – and bloggers, tweeters and let’s not mention the IRC crowd. Are we going to require all posters have an n900 next? Cos I know a number of 770/n800/n810 users who already feel a hell of a lot more excluded by the n900-heavy atmosphere around than they do by their method of communication. Do we insist everyone be a developer in the interests of ‘unity’? Should we insist everyone serve 2 years as a probationer so that all True Members are ‘old guard’? Should we shut down IRC and require posters to sign an NTA (Non-tweeting agreement)?

In other fields we celebrate our diversity. We make it work for us: a good project needs an ideas person, a few skilled devs, a designer/artist or three, sometimes a Nokia insider, testers, more ideas, more testers and good old end-users.

The price of that diversity is that sometimes it bites us in the bum when it comes to communication. Heck, we don’t all speak the same first language – which can cause a whole other range of issues.

So rather than try to address the problems by enforcing a false uniformity, can we instead look at tackling the problems themselves? What exactly are the difficulties with people using different methods?

1) People on the mailing list don’t know what’s happening in chat. Errr. No. Sorry, I don’t buy this one. I simply can’t make myself believe that anyone on the mailing list doesn’t know that t.m.o. exists. Sure, you might have problems with of browser access for a period – say while on holiday – but I don’t think there’s anyone who can’t look in at the forum from time to time to see what’s buzzing. If people aren’t doing that it’s because they’re choosing not to. And they should retain that choice – aware of the risks.

2) People on t.m.o. don’t know what’s happening in the mailing list. This one has more credibility. Heck, I’m all over this board like a rash, and I still thought all the mailing lists were for developers. But the solution to that, surely, is to make the mailing list more visible? At the moment ‘join a mailing list’ is one line on the front page. Could it have some links on the forum? Maybe a notice at the top of the relevant forum saying ‘the subjects in this forum are also being discussed in this mailing list’. (Please not a sticky – I hate stickies!)

If the mailing list denizens are feeling “Oh Teh Noes! We don’t want that rowdy lot joining our mailing list!” I have two things to say. One is that us voluble forum types can fall strangely silent on a mailing list as it’s not our natural medium. (I may not say much but I am reading now, so you can’t insult me behind my back any more :p )The other is to request that you ask yourself whether you are really concerned here to keep the functionality of the mailing list or to keep that nice cosy feeling you get from the smaller Old school group where you feel you know everyone. If it’s the latter, maybe the formal maemo.org channels are not the way to do that: I’m trying very hard not to use the word ‘clique’ here, because I don’t think it does apply. But it could.

3) Decisions have been enacted based on the debate in one medium without the users of other medium being aware. WTF??? Just reading that makes me want to slap someone with a wet haddock, let alone typing it. That’s not a flaw in the system, that’s the fault of the people. Knowing that people connect to the community in diverse ways, no decision should ever be made and enacted until people in each medium have had the chance to contribute their opinion. Isn’t that part of the job of the Council? To ensure they hear all opinions before making big decisions? I assume the council are members of both – and presumably occasionally on IRC too?

“That’s inefficient and inconvenient”. Yes, it is. But community is not always efficient and convenient, because it involves people, and people make things messy. They don’t fit into tidy boxes, and forcing them to just chases them away. Sometimes inefficient and inconvenient is the price we pay for the wonderful, rich diversity we enjoy in this community.

So the proposals:
1) Encourage people on the mailing list to look in to the forum from time to time to be aware of what’s buzzing.
2) Make the mailing list more visible, and encourage more forum posters to be involved.
3) Make sure the Council don’t make decisions until people in all the media have had the opportunity to input their opinions.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

All sensible stuff; however experience tells me that no matter how hard you try to facilitate there'll always be some grumbling if you don't spoon feed a discussion, and its implications, to everyone who'll be upset by the decision. Of course, you don't know who'll be upset because they didn't listen until they are :-)

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I can't think of a decision offhand that the current council has made yet that really affected anything, anyway. I don't know if that's good, bad, indifferent-- or an indication of oncoming senility...

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

True. But both the mailing list and the forum archives. If you can point and say "You had your chance to input here" then grumble as they may they don't really have a leg to stand on. If you say "We discussed it here" and here is only one corner of the community, their grumble may be justified.

There are always people who don't listen. ;)

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

The fact is, like qole said it has been decided.

The problem as I see it.

Decisions are made on the community mailing list the affects the whole community without the entire communities input.

Was this ever the intent of the community mailing list? To answer my own question, No it was not intended for that.

In fact when you subscribe to the list you will notice its name. "List for community development"

This is existed before ITT was integrated into maemo.org.

To me, the mailing list can stay, but, a big BUT. The maemo community council, should now decide what information should be put out where. I believe the mailing list should continue for development, but not for running the community. The developers on the mailing lists end up making decisions which are not reflective of the entire community. What is worse is decisions about TMO are happening on the mailing list, where many of the people as the past few days can attest, don't like the forums, don't want to use the forums.

So we have a line of separation already, apparently many list users don't want this line removed, it should then be enhanced.

We need to define, where each post should be. If it reflects the entire community it should be on talk, if it affects the development community it should be on the developers mailing list.

Nobody wants to take tools away from the development community, we want to take control of our destiny, where more people are involved in the direction of OUR community.

This is NOT a community of developers, it is a community of, developers, admins, help desk, QA analysts, lawyers, hackers, marketers, users, and many more.


Does this make sense? It still to me leaves much of happens on the mailing lists hidden to the majority of the community. I truly believe getting more information easily available would get more people involved, but I digress.


Here are some examples of how I think some of the discussions happening on the mailing list should be moved to the forums.

Mailing List
News for FOSDEM
Brainstorm data reporting
PR 1.1 community beta testing - results?
Periodic cleanup of Extras-Devel?
Community testers for Fremantle PR 1.1


Forums
Sprint task: Refine the karma system
Relaunching the Wiki Action Group
Maemo community calendar events project
#maemo IRC cloaks
Suggested colour change for visited links
Brainstorm: useful?
A business case for Maemo

-------------------------------

While this would be nice in a perfect world, I think we will always have crossover topics that need input from both mediums, even some of the ones listed above.

Ultimately the community-list will be integrated with the community section on the forums, and the so called "noise" will be louder. So it seems like the development community can wait until this happens, then complain its not the way they like it, or you can get involved and make it the way you want.

Perhaps the list can be kept, but it cannot continue to be where community decisions are made, that is not its intended use, it is for "community development" ie the developer community, not the community as a whole.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Forgive my ignorance and believe me, this really is a question from ignorance with no agenda but... if something has been decided in the past by a previous incarnation of the Council, can it then be 'undecided' by a new Council? (Much as laws get made by one government and then repealed by one of a different colour)

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I don't think that "List for community development" mean that the list is for developers only.

In the wiki (a neutral place? :)) the maemo-community mailing list is described like "For maemo.org web and community-process related discussions": https://wiki.maemo.org/Community_mailing_lists

If the Council decides to move the discussions here to the forum, I hope it will be highly moderated. It can't be like the rest of the forum (20 threads for the same problem, many off-topics posts, etc., well, you know what I mean).

Also, RevdKathy has a valid question, what would happen if the next Council prefer the mailing lists, and they decide move the discussion there?
It can be a valid question for other new problems on the future too.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Trust me, it doesn't matter. There are always plenty of people mor ethan willing to stuff wax in their eyes, cover their eyes and run around screaming about a Nokia/maemo.org conspiracy. No matter how hard you try to inform everybody of the discussion then the consensus, they wont notice until after the change is implemented then they'll scream like banshees about it.

Unpleasant stuff that's one of the big reasons I stopped being involved in the council and related stuff.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I'm sorry to hear that GA. But not surprised.

In the end there's something about a clear conscience. If you can lay your hand on your heart and say that you know you communicated clearly and people chose not to listen, then at some point you have to push the responsibility back onto them. It's harder with several channels of communication to be sure you've done that. But you will never please all of the people all of the time. Even in Maemo.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

This was never said by anyone. If you post an email with a link to a thread, and ask kindly if the mailing list contributors take a look at it, they will. They will comment, mostly as a reply to the mailing list, but they will read and listen. None of us ever said we didn't go to tmo at all, some of us just don't have the time to read through all the different topics to try and find one that is interesting and worth spending any kind of effort on. And no, you can't blame anyone for that.

Why? I'd be more inclined to believe that the majority of new users (influx from the N900) don't care about Mailing Lists because they believe them to be archaic. We can't blame the mailing lists users and then give a free pass to tmo users. Both have an equal amount of blame to share. Yes, we ought to celebrate our differences, this doesn't mean that some people get a get-out-of-jail card. I'm willing to bet a good chunk of money that nearly every single user who has been here more than two months, wants to be involved and isn't just here to get some apps on his device and then close the browser window knows about IRC and the Mailing Lists. Whether they chose or not to join is another issue.


Not only is this insulting, it's downright outrageous. You go about to make this great and useful post and then lower yourself to the level of all the stupid things that have been said. The Mailing Lists users don't feel part of a secret gang. The truth is most of us don't care. We don't have the time for these kind of stupid little politics games, and drama queens uprisings. The -users mailing list is generally laughed at, the -developers mailing list is pretty well endowed and -community is there to accommodate those users who want to participate but haven't found a better way to do so.

For example, I'm now in Australia, and will be for the next few months. After you've posted this message, there have been nearly 10 replies before I came online. I don't go through every page of a topic, no matter how nice it is, because I don't have the time. I skim through it, and only pay attention when attention is obviously needed. Am I to blame? Yeah, sure. Will I change my behaviour? I'm not going to lose my job because of this community or its tantrums, so no. However, you posted a link/copy of your message to the mailing list (not in the correct, but never mind), which popped up directly on my N900's screen and in GMail when I opened the laptop. I didn't have to look for it, it was staring me right in the face.

There is no ML-users clique. There is no conspiracy to try and keep our ML squeaky clean. We just use it because a/ it's low traffic, b/ I can reply to any message, no matter how many truckloads of messages have been sent afterwards. I know the intended people will read it. I have no such guarantee in tmo. People could never come back to a specific thread after posting a response. How good is the communication then?

I've never heard of this, and even if it were true, no important decisions have ever been taken without doing a referendum. Each council can completely change the things that a previous council had put in place, if the community wants it. Don't forget, the Council are here to serve you, it is the community's duty to make sure they do so.

Also, it might be beneficial to point out that at some point, most users (and yes, by this I mean any user who's worthwhile, who is here to make the community go forward, not just download 3 apps and f off) were on both tmo and the ML. ML threads are widely discussed on IRC, and it's rare that one specific conversation doesn't leak into the other media within a day or two.

The following are my personal opinions. As an ML reader/user and tmo user.

Denied. People won't do it. You can send links to important messages, as we've done for the past few years, but ask them to willingly go read messages where people go "OMFGWTF NOKIA SHOULD BE FIRED~!!!!~`!11!" is just madness.

Agreed.

This is already in place as far as I'm concerned. During their "electoral campaigns", council members reflect their commitment and knowledge of the community, and the only way to get enough traction now that we have tens of thousands of users, the only way to do this is by being present on every single media.

I will say it once again: There is a solution to this issue, and it is by having aggregated content from all media be published on a weekly fashion. This has been proposed by Jaffa months ago. I also suggest to everyone in this thread to pay very close attention to the Google results linked previously. They contain results for: mailing lists, tmo, twitter, etc.

This, in my opinion, answers the whole thread.

PS: Unless the course of discussion changes drastically (finding a solution rather than arguing in circles), I will close this thread and create a new one as per that goal.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I think you'e misreading me, CrashandDie. I was repeating some of the reasons people said that the ML should be closed. I do not believe it should be.

1) There have been complaints that people don't know what's going on in one place or the other. Why else would there be a suggestion to close one or the other? I do believe that many t.m.o. people don't know there's a community mailing list: they arrive at the board from a search engine and stay. I also believe that ML people do know about t.m.o. are making an active choice not to check here - for exactly the reasons you outlined, rather than acting from ignorance. Neither group is 'getting a free pass'. It's you who are putting a value judgement on one rather than the other. Personally, I'm rather ashamed of my ignorance.

2) If you'd like to read what I said, I specifically said that I was avoiding the concept of clique because I don't believe it. But it's been hinted at. All I did was put it in the open, so I could kick it into touch. The two media are simply different methods of communicating as far as I'm concerned.

As for decisions being made in oly one medium, you haven't read the thread? Because that's exactly what was described - I believe the example given was the changes to board layout and colour scheme. (It was all before my time, so I'm only going on what was said here).

The idea of weekly news is fine but it's not the solution that was under discussion: that was the one already declared as an agreed goal in the wiki of closing the ML. Personally, I think that would be a big mistake.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Oh Reggie, could you turn on the threaded discussion feature? The "flatness" of the discussion threads on TMO has always been one of my biggest annoyances. It would allow readers to skip past tangents in the discussion that they're not interested in.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

and you asked to close the mailinglist?! getting a proper mail program which can handle lists (threads, close sub-threads, split threads...) might help you to understand what a powerful tool mailinglist servers can be... apart of being readable in an inbox...

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

Yes, except again: the most vocal mailing list devotees prefer raw text as far as I've seen. No fancy formatting. Useless in a reader that wants to structure the content.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

chemist: I believe there are some advantages to a mailing list.

But many of the deficiencies of typical forums can be fixed. Look at the excellent comment system on Slashdot for instance.

Oh how I envy the Slashdot comment system.

Re: Move maemo-community mailing list activity to this forum
 

I think I am done here... people trying to get rid of a mailinglist try to make a forum look like a mailinglist and dont understand that a forum is an eye-candy blown click WYSIWYG mailinglist...

all what matters is: getting those two together, Jaffas Weekly (I now know about it and have to apologize!) in place, activate some more rating features and pump (pimp) the forums with some mailinglist features (please, I'm begging you, dont do slashdot) and we have and are where everyone will be happy... ;)

agreed?