Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Based on that allusion I think you have Quim confused with someone else.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

I'm slightly confused about this. Dropping the Maemo name for Harmattan is a reasonable thing to do now, but if it's not MeeGo (technically)... should it be called MeeGo? Will it? :confused:

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

In the words of Darth Vader...

"This will be a day long remembered. It has seen the end of Kenobi, it will soon see the end of the Rebellion."

:p:p

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Well, that's not a great example, since Moblin uses GStreamer too... Actually, can you name any components that are significantly different between the two systems? I don't mean things that one platform has but the other is missing, I mean different components that do the same thing in the two systems? I'm thinking of the things you refer to as "some obscure middleware components" later in your post.

Great news! More time for Maemo developers to adjust.

Another bit of great news! Just because something is "really not for a good reason" doesn't mean a lot of companies will do it anyway, for political reasons.

I'm sure the Maemo developers are happy about that too.

Although I'm very curious.... What's going to happen to "Maemo Devices" inside Nokia? Is it just changing names to "MeeGo Devices" or is it being completely restructured?

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

why is this so hard to understand?! Maemo6 as a brand name is replaced by MeeGo! Harmattan is the internal name for the first instance of MeeGo for handhelds. Maemo6 was just a label, and though a movement, not a religion.

Now wonder how much influence Meego will have on Symbian?

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Sorry I think you're out of your depth here.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

I think you're missing the point rather. There's more to what Maemo is/was than just the brand name, there's substance too. From what we've been told so far it appears that Harmattan will be exactly the same thing that it would have been it were still going to be called Maemo 6, but it will acquire the MeeGo branding anyway. The version after that will be the first to include the changes to the substance, and will arguably be the first real MeeGo (or at least, Nokia's first MeeGo).

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

The thing is we don't know just how MeeGo Maemo 6 is (waiting anxiously for the Harmattan SDK :) ). It's not *really* Meego, as we already know few marked differences from Maemo 6. M6 is just close to it, and renamed to harness the buzz. Not necessarily bad, but with considerable potential to cause confusion (hence the need to know exactly in what ways it IS meego and in what ways it isn't).

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

We allready have report of first "MeeGo" device from LG. Link That one looks like Moblin. Now Nokia is essentially saying that Maemo 6 will be rebranded as MeeGo.

In other words there's a great opportunity for consumer confusion here, if both Moblin 2 and Maemo 6 are marketed/branded as MeeGo, before we have truly unifield MeeGo platform.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

But the name "Maemo" is sooo much cooler than "MeeGo"!!!
:(

Re: Will it be a Maemo 6 or it will just be MeeGo?
 

Merging this thread with another thread that discusses exactly the same topic. :)

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Posts discussing MeeGo in the N900 have been moved to the thread they belong to: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44615

Please stay on topic. Thanks!

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

I wonder if Meego strategy was being worked on for a while, based on a well defined roadmap, or it was that kind of top-down decision that even the Maemo Team on Nokia just got to adapt overnight...

Decisions without planning are nothing new within large companies... I hope that's not the case, but there is no way to know for sure by now.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

You can find the relevant joint press release from last June, but here's an excerpt from BGR. It should answer your question.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that PR from last year. It seems then that Harmattan was designed from the begining based on Meego architecture. That would explain why a lot of bug & improvement requests for Maemo 5 were pushed to Harmattan.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

RPM based? For the love of Baud why? apt-get/aptitude and deb packages is so much cleaner. I spent years fighting with rpm based Red Hat and Mandriva. Please, don't make me go back to that hell.

Dropping the Debian parent distribution is bad enough but going to rpm packaging? Boooo...

I've been watching N900 prices since it finally hit store shelves but this latest news is seriously shattering my desire to drop 500+ on an N810 replacement. It smells too much like continuing to buy Palm devices beyond the T5 while the parent company runs the hardware and OS into the ground.

Will the N900 continue to get platform updates after Maemo5 or am I going to be buying a device just as third party development abandons the platform? (eg. no Maemo4 app updates now that Maemo5 is in full swing)

And what are the alternatives, a mobile platform that criminalize the device owner just by making it usable, a mobile platform that delivers a creepy harvesting of personal information, Windows7 phone edition.. I'm having serious flashbacks to Palm's abandoning software development then delivering a string of crap treo hardware rather than evolving the T5 hardware.

(Now I'll get down off my soap box and go find the applicable thread for OS and hardware specific platform.)

For now, I'll wait, and watch.. and see if the N900 reaches a reasonable price point while retaining a platform development path. Here's hoping Nokia doesn't Newton there tablet devices (The other PDA options out there suck right now).

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Just thought I should post in this thread so I can later claim to be a MeeGo "Expert" and maybe start a blog or suttin'.

Where do we line up for them blogger appreciation devices?

***

BTW, long live this partnership I hope to see Nokia/Meego embedded in my furniture and appliances in 2020. :)

Can we also now close all the Maemo 6 on the N900 threads?

***

Also, why the hell didn't "our man in the know", Eldar post about this months ago?
Because Eldar didn't, I suspect some will think this is not real. :rolleyes:

;)

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Heh. Eldar seems to know about hardware stuff. Maybe he has less/little/no visibility into software stuff.

And... I'll trust the credibility of Quim over Eldar (when it comes to Nokia Maemo/Meego products) any day.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

MeeGoing to pass on a product that subliminally makes mewant to eat at mcdonalds and mebuy new clothes to fit meimage better.

Sigh.

And while that particular frivolous Moochism is superficial, the switch from apt to RPM... uh, ok.

I sometimes wonder if there's some sick sociological study behind the facade of this 5-step Maemo project to see how many directions people can be pointlessly wrenched before they yield, and how that yielding manifests itself.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Can we all stick on the branding topic here? If you have other topics in mind please contribute to the several ongoing threads or create a new one.

There is enough volume of discussion and mixing/overlapping threads won't help. Thanks!

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

O_o

Do they have MeDonalds here you live, or McDonalds?

Because if it's the latter, your statement is a huge stretch. If it's the former, then you should move.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Maybe the theme of the post wasn't as clear as i thought. Here's a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McWords

To look on the bright side, separating the smartphone industry into iStuff and meStuff would really simplify things for people who like to draw battle lines and fight protracted verbal wars.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Great video about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXK9XFolwTM

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

My biggest gripe branding-wise (apart from the name choice itself :) ) is that Maemo 6 and MeeGo are not interchangeable. MeeGo (from what we've been hinted) is a much broader thing, more of a family of interwoven platforms and technologies than a particular implemented set (like Maemo 6). I even find it hard to explain why Fremantle (having official Qt4.6 support) is not Meego in the same way Harmattan is.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

So... as MeeGo is RPM based, yet Harmattan/Maemo6 Qt-based apps can be installed on Maemo5 surely this means one of two things:

1) Nokia expect developers to package their apps twice, once as an RPM for M6 and again as a DEB for M5
or
2) Harmattan/Maemo6 is a purely DEB based OS with very little to do with MeeGo and it's RPM packaging system

Option 1) is simply an unreasonable expectation from Nokia of developers - it would be better for Nokia to ship an RPM based M6/MeeGo for N900 than expect developers to do double the work, this is the quickest way to make developers drop N900/M5 support.

Option 2) makes sense as Harmattan should be pretty well advanced, and means Harmattan/Maemo6 has nothing technically to do with MeeGo, although might be branded as such for the initial release, with a later release switching to RPM.

Assuming Option 2 is on the money, Maemo6 is MeeGo in name only... in which case yes, Fremantle/Maemo5 could be called MeeGo too! But that would be even more confusing, and highlight the fact it's a branding exercise only at this point rather than any major technical improvement/change.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

@ Milhouse

If I understood it correctly, Maemo 6/Harmattan is purely DEB based and has little to do with MeeGo's RPM packaging system, but quite a lot to do with the overall architecture.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

attila77, Milhouse, you are serious guys and you will understand this quickly: Harmattan and MeeGo come with a whole Qt based application and UI framework and a Qt style API. Maemo 5 is a different story, with a GTK+ based applications and UI framework and GNOME style API.

This is what makes Harmattan quite close to MeeGo in platform terms, while Maemo 5 is really something different. That said you can reach very similar APIs with Maemo 5, and you can also add more libraries to Maemo 5 in order to fine tune the compatibility. You can also do so with Symbian, yet you don't have problems seeing that it's pointless to call Symbian MeeGo.

We can discuss this in more details once we have a MeeGo and a Harmattan list of components to compare.

PS: about the packaging... we are talking here about API compatibility.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

I'm pretty sure that is the case...

... but I don't think that necessarily follows. Windows XP is a renamed version of Windows NT 5.1 underneath, but that doesn't mean older versions of Windows NT should be renamed Windows XP. It's just branding.

It seems to me that Nokia want to associate their next device with MeeGo, even if it's really running Maemo 6, in order to get on board the MeeGo bandwagon. I wonder if that means that the next device will be upgradeable to "proper" MeeGo later? If it isn't, then Nokia would have even more explaining to do to the masses - "yes, we called it MeeGo but I'm sorry you can't really run that MeeGo app you bought".

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Of course, as Maemo and Moblin are both Linux based they'll already share the vast majority of their architecture already, so merging Maemo and Moblin to produce MeeGo is a case of choosing which bits to keep and which bits to drop (ok, huge simplification!) and then moving forwards with the new combined Linux distribution.

But fundamentally...

A "MeeGo" OS that is DEB based is Maemo.
A "MeeGo" OS that is RPM based is definitely not Maemo.

The next major release of Maemo (aka MeeGo) may well include some new features or functionality that derive from Moblin/MeeGo but ultimately it the next release has to be DEB based otherwise N900 owners will see much reduced app support as it's not reasonable to expect developers to support DEB and RPM packaging.

What happens once a version of MeeGo appears with RPM only support is then anyone's guess - presumably the next device (ie. first MeeGo device) will be upgradeable from Maemo6/DEB to a version of MeeGo with RPM support.

Obviously the N900/M5/DEB will eventually be out in the cold, unless the community can come up with a port of MeeGo/RPM which may be more likely due to the reduced level of closed components in MeeGo.

The best option all round would be to move as quickly from DEB to RPM and try to avoid a situation where both packaging systems need to be supported concurrently by developers.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Right, and it's great that there can and will be API compatability between M5 and M6 and MeeGo and even Symbian... but if M5 uses one package manager while MeeGo uses another (and Symbian a third) Nokia are expecting MeeGo developers to package their application three times for distribution.

This is an overhead they can do without, and I'm sure many will come to the conclusion that it's not worth the effort of supporting the M5/DEB system so support for the N900 will rapidly dwindle despite it remaining API compatible with the latest MeeGo devices.

I'm not that bothered about which package manager is used, I've got no allegiance to either, it's just that switching from DEB to RPM will have repercussions eventually unless the N900/M5 can somehow be updated with RPM support in which case this all becomes a moot point.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

You're misunderstanding me - technically, I understand why one would label Harmattan MeeGo (despite the deb/rpm issue, potential API differences, etc). I was referring to the branding confusion which is replacing one brand with another that is of a much broader scope.

EDIT: Let me give an example. Take Ubuntu. Ubuntu is a brand, but left a room for subbranding to avoid confusion - KUbuntu, XUbuntu, Edubuntu, Ubuntu Network Remix are all Ubuntu, but with clear and known 'local' differences. Where's this in MeeGo ? The netbook UX MeeGo is MeeGo. The handheld UX MeeGo (i.e. Harmattan) is MeeGo, the deb based MeeGo is MeeGo, the rpm based MeeGo is MeeGo... I hope it's more clear what I find lacking in this nomenclature :)

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Exactly! If only Nokia would've said that n900 will be upgradable to MeeGo, all these discussions would be over in an instant. :)

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Whether it's full MeeGo or not on N900, the biggest issue now (in my mind) is the complete change of package management system.

If MeeGo had never happened and the N900 stayed on M5 but remained API and package manager compatible with future Maemo releases, it wouldn't be so bad - the N900 would continue to get most apps, and developers would only need to support one DEB package management system (or two, including Symbian).

Now with MeeGo, apps will be distributed as RPMs. Not all apps will be developed for Nokia devices as developers may be targeting x86 netbooks running MeeGo, but their apps could be packaged for ARM/MeeGo as an RPM, and they might do it as it's largely a no brainer (in theory) and massively increases their market for next to nothing.

But continued DEB support, particularly from developers not principally targeting Nokia devices? Forget it, it's a dead market so best to let it die than keep it on life support.

RPM support for the N900 is essential, one way or another.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Pardon the noob knowledge/understanding on packaging, but isn't the fact of whether the Qt APIs are packaged with DEB or RPM determined by the IDE used? And isn't all dev being funneled through Qt Creator? So why would the packaging be a problem - except for those that like to "package by hand" (which is what I'm guessing happens more often than not because the tool(s) aren't up to snuff)?

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Another package format means more deployment testing. It increases the chance of an application c0cking up a device or the application failing to install. This means more work and puts more responsibility on the developer - easiest solution is not to support DEB.

DEB then becomes a legacy packaging format that everyone will want to forget as soon as possible. Developers that only have access to a new MeeGo device and with no access to an N900 won't create DEBs, just RPMs. N900 development declines.

Maemo5 can be 100% compatible with MeeGo at the Qt API level, but while it uses an incompatible package manager I think the number of MeeGo apps that are made available for Maemo5 will be much lower than might be otherwise be expected.

I'm not suggesting that DEB should be continued as I fully accept RPM is now the future, just that for the N900 to remain relevant it would be better if it could somehow acquire RPM support (how that happens I have no idea - the obvious solution would be to port RPM-based MeeGo to the N900, though there may be other options).

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

thanks for the video.

so:

portrait mode is coming

maemo 6 wont be canceled and is coming too

I doubt nokia will make another maemo device they may move onto meego ones. so maemo 6 is made dedicate for n900. nice.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

Please do not refer to Quim as a Nokia drone. He is flesh and blood and a friend of mine. We may disagree with him but we owe him the same respect he shows us.

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

This is a long thread and some of it is a bit too technical for me, even though I am an engineer and could probably try to figure out what N900 owners can expect. However, i will say this:

If Nokia decides to abandon Maemo as an OS open source project and go head first into MeeGo with no Maemo 5 compatibility or feasible upgrade, simply put I am never going back to Nokia and I have been a very loyal customer in the past.

They marketed the N900 as a powerhouse mobile computer with infinite possibilities because of Maemo's open source, but if they are ignorant and discourage developers from making new applications and are now only compatable with Maemo6/MeeGo, they have basically fooled us all into buying an N900 as we would be the only ones with Maemo 5 and this community will shrink over a short period of time while all we can do is watch as other OS' blossom.

I understand that I haven't looked into recent news or go in depth into the technical compatibility possibilities, but regardless, at the end of the day, it comes down to whether Nokia makes a dick move based their newer more economical-potential agenda, or a move that tells the world that they truly value their customers

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

I don't get that at all. I do see a lot of talk about "abandonment", and being treated poorly by the Big Bad Company, being used as a Guinea pig, etc.on these boards lately. After hearing that bell being rung for so long I can see how it could affect attitudes.

I still don't understand where these issues come from with regard to Nokia. Is it from past behavior? Windows Mobile? yes; Palm? yes; first gen iPhone? maybe; Nokia? not so much.
So I suspect much of this separation anxiety and the abandonment issues we are seeing are based on experiences with other companies.

When OS2007 became available for the N800, 770 owners also felt abandoned. However, Nokia came through and offered through this community, an HE version that ran on the different hardware found on the 770.

It was not "officially" supported by Nokia, but it was still made available. I believe the same thing will occur with Harmattan/Maemo6/Meego IF, for whatever reason Nokia decides not to "officialy" support the N900 with the new OS.

I bought an N800 over 3 years ago and still use it for hacking. My N810 (which was only bought because I got such a great deal) is in my car and I use it everyday. In some ways it is more useful to me then my N900. If I hadn't bought the N810, I would be using the N800 with BT GPS daily in my car instead.

To me^ that's a pretty good deal. The iPAQ I purchased 1 1/2 years before I first heard about the N800 and Nokia Internet Tablets was obsolete in 8 months and it cost $60 more than the N800. A TomTom Navigator I bought for my wife two holiday seasons ago has already gone through 3 OS generations that hers can't run... but they still want to sell us map updates. :rolleyes:

So Nokia, Maemo, and this community have been pretty good to me.
...but enough about me, :D back to the topic at hand.

Maemo5 and the N900 will run QT. QT apps developed for Meego will run on the N900 after a recompile. Ergo, more apps will be available for the N900 and from other sources than if Maemo6 was developed for only the N900 and its successors.

As a bonus! MeeGo will be more open than Maemo ever was. If better telephony, contact management, and other core apps are developed for it, these too have a better chance of being back ported to the N900. A much better chance than core apps developed for an exclusive Maemo6 device or any other "in house" successor if that was the path taken by Nokia.

I do have issues with Nokia marketing in that they targeted phone bloggers early on. For many of these bloggers this was their first exposure to Maemo.
People interested in phones read phone blogs. Many of the unreasonable expectations we see may have come from these blogger's enthusiasm over yet another "phone" loaned to them by Nokia.

As far as abandonment or disregard for the Maemo community by Nokia, I have not seen it in my 3+ years using a Maemo device

...and I don't think your mileage will vary. :)

Re: Renaming "Maemo 6" to MeeGo / Harmattan
 

This thread is simply about the fact that Nokia has deprecated the name of "Maemo 6" in favor of MeeGo and Harmattan.

If you want to know about the future of the N900 the most official and accurate answers can be found at the 'Cleaning N900 FUD' thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=46187