Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Again, you're confusing (open source) donations with paying for a ready-to-roll-app.

You might allow me to compare this with real life :

Getting paid while doing a job is like being on a company's payroll. You'll do your job whilst getting paid. No offense to Gary for deciding to go that path!

Developing a complete application and then selling it is more of a self-employed way of working.

You may decide which way suits best your needs and way of life. But don't blame other people for thinking the other way around...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

> I do have a family to feed
I will print these words of sio2 at t-shirt. I guess noone can blame me for anything after they see it.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

IMHO, you don't have to burn bridges on first strike. Especially when we're standing on a construction site, where things aren't yet fully build and cements have not dried yet.

Fix the loop holes, forgive each other and move on.

I know Sio2Interactive (what's your name, dude?) hasn't done his best in winning the community's heart; but I don't want to take that personally. IMHO, we'd benefit from having him supporting our platform as much as he need us supporting his products.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

...and the system will remain broken. :)


If only we could harness the energy of the wind generated by all the blovation on the subject that will occur. :D

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I think that's fair, but what seems to be lacking here is any recognition from SIO2 that what he did was unacceptable. He seems to think it was maemo's fault for allowing it to happen, not his for making the deliberate choice to do it.

That seems like more than a one-off 'first strike' mistake to me.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Please don't make rash decisions.

I know that no apologies will come from the community; but IMHO you shouldn't make quick decisions like this based on a handful of negative comment from A COMPLETELY OPEN FORUM.

Just think it over and let each side make corrections to what was lacking on the first try.

Time will heal. Things will get better.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

There is nothing wrong with paying for software. As I matter of fact I gladly paid for my first six Linux distro's to avoid having to reboot and view another Microsoft EULA. But this is sorely offtopic. The issue here is trust, and the question is can you trust a developer who exploits loopholes to sell his product not to exploit loopholes to make a profit?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Can we give the guy a second chance?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Don't be an arrogant pr1ck :D He just showed us how few substance the community produced and how large the gaping holes still are in "our" QA/Extras process. And in OVI store.
We ALL should be ashamed of something like this happening - Sio2 for doing it, we for not offering better support to such a talented developer and especially Nokia for bringing up such a disastrous situation upon the commercial developers. The N900 has been available for a 100 days now, and still no real Ovi store. Just a pity or really ridicilous? And of course, NO words about this from Nokia for months.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

yes and your initial argument was that open source folks don't want to spend money to software at all. or at least it sounded like that.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

see the bold part... for the rest, rarely a human man apologizes without even trying to justify himself... so, I appreciate that bold part, and understand his reasons, even not believing they are a real justification.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Can the furious zealots and self-proclaimed policeman please take a break?
I actually enjoy finally having 3D games on the Maemo platform. Having been in the same situation as SIO2 (A-Z one man software show, selling many thousands on another platform) I understand his issues.
And having worked with Extras for years, with a bunch of apps in the queue, I also understand the problems we have (flawed comment system, the whole mess when updating a version, etc.)

Which is probably much more than most of the TALKers here ever achieved. Words come easy. Results do not.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Off course. After apology where he admits that he has taken advantage of community/system to drive his needs.

Right now his understatements about this make me at least feel bit sad. Like he has no idea that some people take this kind of stuff really really seriously even thought it's only about little games.

I really enjoy those little games and bought hoops and gave feedback. I also gave thumbs up for some version of game, but looks like it wasn´t there any more.

Btw. Do you need to drive updates to games trough whole devel->testing->extras process? Hopefully not.

*edit
I noticed apology but all the other explanations around it makes it look bit vague. You can't justify your deeds with arguments "i have to feed my family". Only way to answer all these accusations is to be humble and not to try to explain your deeds. It has been done, straight apology and humble "shoot me all the **** you can i will take it" approach works. Explaining makes thing just look worse.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

yes, you do.
and for a good reason, too. "regression" being the keyword :)

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

well form what i understand seems that we have alienated a decent software dev for a system that is not seen as stable more work in progress. he had exploited a bug that this site was well aware of..yet they made no attempt to fix it? nokia themselves are basically ignoring the platform and not seeming to support devs either in ovi related problems...here and sygic???? where else is he too go??he even paid his own cash to try and promote thru extras...paying for a service that is fatally flawed. nobody mentions that though. he is a paying customer of maemo,s services and so he should also get a good service???

leave the guy to do what he does and push more commercial games for a dying system. i support anyone who develops and feel that some folks here are to haste in their opinions.

chin up pal..i,ll happily pay for your games as will thousands of others...ignore the bigots!

The zealots win!
 

I told you....
Knew this would happen...
I think everyone and me have lost more than this argument

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

It doesn't sound like you get that, even if you can write the best software in the world and give it away to everyone for free, what you did was still abusive, unprofessional and just plain wrong.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

So if I create an app that satisfies your need for a 3D game on the N900 you are okay with me using whatever means possible to profit from it?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The more I think about it, the less I think that's true. The process seems pretty reasonable; updates are queued, testers vote, things are promoted after sufficient votes. It seems pretty obvious that people shouldn't be voting for their own packages, especially not multiple times, and there's a limit to how much you can ever really lock this sort of thing down while still having a functioning community system.

I don't think the system has a bug that can be fixed, because the 'bug' such as it is, is to assume a degree of good faith on the part of community members. We should be able to assume that, and we'll all be worse off if we don't, and instead mistrust everyone all the time.

SIO2 didn't exploit a technical bug, he exploited people's trust.

As for what to do next, if there isn't already a maemo.org policy on how to handle this sort of situation, it sounds to me like it should be a matter for the Community Council to decide whether maemo.org should offer a second chance to this developer - it's not something that we can, or should try to decide in this thread.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

if u mean..by being able to promote your your product so that many more have access to it..and tehn they can make an informed decision if they want to purchase it.....yes

if the work is all yours then why not..if the work feeds your family...if it promotes your company...why not...???

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Of course "we" can give the guy a second chance but, seeing as he took advantage of the flaws in "our" system it is only fair that he reveals the flaws in his.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

as some people have realised we dont all live in fantasy world...this community is not built on 100 percent trust..look how nokia shafted maemo 5. he exploited a bug on here hence why other measures have been brought in. its the real world not maemo fantasy island..these are hard economic times in a dog eat dog world...

now back to my real world of wifey and kidsL

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I admit I missed that. but you have to admit that there was a lot justifying etc around it that pretty much blew the whole apology unvalid.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

how old are you??? you seem to be acting like my 15yr old child.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Send me your bank account number and password to access the funds necessary to feed my family, they are quite fat by the way, and I will create such an app.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

51, and you?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

There are 2 things at play here;

1. Winning the support of the community.
2. Dealing with the system: fixing it, etc

Just like religions are separate from the state, I believe getting community support is optional in a system like this. (Although it's highly beneficial to have it).

Am I mistaken?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

there we go again

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I'll second the idea that the council should be issue a statement on this. It seems that perhaps this is one of the things that they should have a hand in.

I'm waiting patiently to buy Rovio's Angry Birds level pack(s). I want to encourage more folks to develop for the platform (and show that it can be profitable). I want to encourage "good" developers, ones who follow the rules, whether set by Nokia or the community depending on where/how the software is being distributed.

However, even if the community decides to give SiO2 a second chance, I won't be installing any of his software. He violated not only our (community) trust but Nokia's (enabling Extras by default based on the community effort), and all the other people who bought a N900, but don't participate in our community. Those people expect that software in the Extras repository (enabled by default) is "safe", and they should. By knowingly and intentionally cheating the QA process SiO2 has not only harmed his own reputation, but the communities reputation as well. We have ony his word at this point that his software is "safe", and he has shown himself to be of questionable morals.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Because uploading to Extras is a privilege, not a right, and comes with certain rules. You are free to debate them and try to get them changed, host your own repository elsewhere, or even just throw your toys out of the pram but you don't get to break them just because you find them inconvenient.

The sad thing is that a simple "packages in extras-testing, please vote" announcement would have probably got the packages promoted in the same time anyway...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

i,m sure he stated that he had to pay for that service? i am not debating those rules.. there are two side to blame here so in future it may be wise for any spats like this to be kept behind scenes? how does this look for potential devs? the blame is with a system that been going for yrs that does not want to see/implement change...and a frustrated dev whom gets no support from nokia

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

A little, I think. Having your software hosted on maemo.org is support from the community. Everyone should be (and is) free to set up their own repositories outside of the maemo.org community and be free of the community's processes, so in that sense community support is optional. I don't think it's fair though to suggest that people should be able to choose to take advantage of some community support, including maemo.org hosting, without having to keep to the community's rules for using those facilities.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that was a reference to paying for Ovi hosting, not maemo.org.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I missed most of this mess(traveling), but a big thanks to the ones that spot this.

Our community like any other open source community is based on trust, people that break some levels of trust aren't good for the community, I've seen similar situations in other places and all of them end up badly.

My education and in the society that I live on there's not valid excuses to break simple rules, if the rules are there and they don't steal us anything there's no reason to not respect them.

For my point of view and also from the explanations given by the developer, there's here a big lack of respect for the community and for our decisions and rules. The developer had a simple way to have 100% profit just following simple rules, and he choose to not respect them, can we trust him ? Can we be sure that one person with this values will not distribute a application that steal all your contacts ? (a bit harsh but can happen :) )

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

So it is OK to put malicious stuff for example in debian postinst scripts just because it's possible? I couldn't really be blamed if my app had rm -fr / there since there is no code to prevent that? ;)

Because that attitude of yours I'm hoping that I'll never install your software even by accident.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I didn't know there's so many halos around here.

Thank god, we're all so free from sin so we can cast stones. Let him pray a coupla Ave Maria and his confession's through.

Cut it or we'll most likely lose all future 3rd party developers as well. Or imagine:

OVI store gets up and running and the maemo repos will get abandoned...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Yes. Maemo.org (and by extension, extras) is a community asset. If you don't want to work with the community then there are other options, such as Ovi (when it's available) or host your own.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

So what is the community's rules in regards to exploiting a weakness in its system?

Also, take note that the guy's first choice was to distribute it through Ovi Store. He's even paid the 'entrance fee' to Nokia, but unfortunately that didn't pan out.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

You have to pay to get you application on Nokia store platform. Hosting your package here is free for developer.

Bear in mind that Nokia repository/store and their policy is completely different from policies around here. Two totally different "organizations".

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Why should people who pay for the device be any less informed than those who develop for it?