Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I should sue you for the seizure(s) you just caused. :D

Seriously, though, I am refactoring that presentation into a post mortem / lessons learned sort of thing. Hopefully Nokia (and Intel) will find it useful).

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Intel and Nokia are still discussing the last details about the MeeGo architecture. In technical terms this means that still today nobody knows what exactly the MeeGo OS will consist of. Imagine a month ago, two months ago, three...

There are comments saying that users of [competitor] take for granted that their device will get further updates. But that situation doesn't really compare to the jump from Maemo 5 to Harmattan/MeeGo, which represents a deep change in the OS plus a total rewrite of the applications.

Would users of [competitor] expect to get a totally renewed UX to their current devices, including all new pre-installed apps and a revamped OS?

Still, the chance is there. The sooner you demand an answer the easiest is to get a conservative silence. The closer we get to Harmattan / MeeGo stable releases the easiest is to give accurate technical and business answers.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I'd like to also point out that the MeeGo Milestone was a special occurrence that had happened after all the (high level) roadmap was laid down and shared with the community. This milestone has introduced quite a number of new and unexpected variables into our existing equation.

I think an audible show of concern by the community is understandable or even expected.

Nokia should take the time and effort to address the community again about where we're charting the course; even if it's just to say:

Please wait... recalculating route.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Maybe open source development and the desire to engage with the community is a double edged sword. Here we have a new, open, approach to software development meeting old hardware shifting practices. Long term device compatibility has never featured highly on the Maemo list of priorities.

Contrast our community with iPhone owners - they don't need to be concerned about silence from Apple or being left with a device that has limited support as they know that Apple will continue to support their old device with new firmware even when new hardware becomes available - that's a trick Nokia haven't quite mastered yet.

Just imagine the furore that would ensue if Apple released a new "4GS" iPhone with wizzy new v4.00 firmware and fixes for long standing v3 bugs, but gave no hint when asked outright if an update would be made available for older (in fact, even current) devices. Trust me, the brown stuff would hit the fan pretty sharpish.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

The iPhone is something of a special case though, and everyone else's failure to beat Apple at that game proves it. If Nokia and others are going to compete against Apple in the smartphone/tablet/mobile computer arena they're going to have to do something different.

As Rauha points out, Nokia have been pushing the openness of Maemo pretty heavily, and the community has responded by getting a lot of Free/OSS apps into the repositories in a pretty short space of time. Those apps will be a large part of what makes end users buy the devices, and if the attitude to development discourages community engagement and involvement, then it's only going to hurt. In general, the people that are aware of and engaged in these sorts of issues and these sorts of discussions exert a disproportionate effect on the market because they/we do things that influence other people's purchasing decisions, one way or another.

Aside from the hardware sales POV, if the Meego project is ever going to get much effort from people that aren't either Nokia or Intel employees, then people are going to need to feel enthusiastic about helping; if that doesn't happen then Nokia and Intel are going to get saddled carrying the full development costs themselves, and at that point they get the worst of all possible worlds - all of the development costs of doing it in-house, but still the licensing lets anyone else use the end result for nothing. That can't be good.

Again though, the bottom line is that, like it or not, the community response is what it is. If Nokia feels that's a problem for them, then they can fix it; if they're OK with it, then they can ignore it. I don't think that there's a middle way where the noise and complaints and 'FUD' goes away without the substance of the situation actually changing.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

But whose "fault" is that? This is now the third or fourth major OS change, and each time the previous owners are dumped. I know plans change, but when the hardware remains the same it's hard to convince previous owners that it's impossible to get the new OS running on the "old" hardware.

When the hardware is largely the same, yes, why not?

Unless, and here's just a couple of examples, the new OS requires double the RAM to run (in which case, seriously questionable design! :)) or the new OS is designed for use with specific hard buttons that the old device won't have (although to be fair this could be worked around if the will was there).

I've already said I believe this to be a "reasonable expectation" so unless the hardware is radically different my opinion isn't likely to change.

The trouble is we kept silent on 770 and missed out on OS2007.

We were subsequently told - once it became apparent that OS2007 wouldn't be made available for the 770 - "Sorry, it's now too late to add support the 770, maybe if we had included support earlier in the design phase".

On that basis, when is it polite to ask about Harmattan on N900? :)

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

The problem here is that the situation of "revamped-OS-must-have-new-hardware" was lived here already in the transition from Diablo to Fremantle, and although it was reasonable, it was still a hard pill to swallow for many.

Asking customers (specially new ones) to pass through the same situation, in a short time span, it is a harder pill to swallow, even more when there is a sensible feeling about Maemo 5 being incomplete.

User of [competitor] doesn't have to upgrade their devices every time the new and revamped OS leaves the previous one at a dead-end. That being because other mobile OS's upgrades are evolutions instead of revolutions, however, it is an important point to many people.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I haven't said that the decision is made, high enough or not.

It is not about height but about scope, and I have insisted on this since I joined this forum. I discuss about open source software and developer offering. I might discuss about Nokia proprietary software if that is useful. I avoid as much as possible discussions about Nokia hardware and 3rd party commercial software, just because this is totally out of my scope. Harmattan/MeeGo officially supported in the N900, Ovi Maps with free navigation, etc are business topics to be discussed with business owners. People like Peter, Janne, Ari...

From this perspective I'm not saying that ranting is pointless. Unhappy customers are unhappy customers and must be heard. But then how efficient is to repeat now and again the rants in yet another Talk thread? If you want to be heard as customers then exercise your rights as customers through the Nokia customer channels and wherever else you think you will be heard as customers.

I'm here as a contributor and all you are here as contributors. Turning maemo.org into a frustrated customer channel doesn't help anybody.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Containing all fears in one place would already help the uncertainty and doubt. :) From that point we all can do better.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Well, since you ask, how about just one, Apple's announcement of the iPhone OS 3.0 update:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2009/03/17iphone.html

A few select quotes:

So, never mind a roadmap, actual access to the code for developers and would-be developers. Do we get that from Nokia? No, we don't.

An announcement of an availability date (albeit vague) for a future release. Do we get that from Nokia? No, we don't.

And a list of some of the things that will be contained in a future release. Do we get that from Nokia? No, we don't.

Major OS updates for already released devices, and for free. Do we get that from Nokia? No, we don't.

Is that OK for a view of how a major competitor handles this sort of thing?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I heard such argument once and I requested the removal of my moderator rights (earned as community member). Perhaps it was a mistake to volunteer as moderator again due to the lack of moderators after the N900 launch. But no worries: your message made me think again that the right thing is to be here as a regular active participant. I have requested the removal of my moderator rights and I hope this helps continuing this discussion in good terms.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I really feel sorry for Quim. He is squarely in a no win situation but trying hard to make the best of it.

I am in my third month with my N900 and loving it. That does not mean there were not some disappointments and surprises along the way, but I did my research and chose the N900 as the best solution for what I wanted. If I had to do it again today, I would make the same decision, in spite of any short comings. Any issues I may have, are with “Nokia”, as they are the ones that received my money when I bought the N900. Quim may work for Nokia but he is not, Nokia. Maemo.org may be supported by Nokia, but they are not Nokia.

The N900, like all electronics devices, has a very short useful shelf life and right now my main concern is making the most of it while I can. I really appreciate all the hard work of the community members who have created apps; that is not a skill set that I have. I am not opposed to hearing about issues, but need we resort to Tabloid like headlines? The only ones that really benefit from irrational rantings are the tabloids, politicians and talk show hosts. I applaud any effort to help filter the mountains of comments here so those of us that just want to use our N900 can focus on the information that will help up do so.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I think unfortunately for you, you may be the only Nokia representative that might be listening, and is participating in an active debate. You mention asking Ari, well, over on his blog, there are a whole load of people asking Ari, and while he does respond every now and then, he doesn't necessarily answer the questions. For my own part, a lot of the frustration is because I can see questions being asked all over the place, and I'm not seeing any answers. The fewer answers, the more questions are asked, asked and then asked again.

As Ewan has said repeatedly, the FUD could stop, or be limited, if Nokia were to come forward with real answers and not just wishy washing corporate bull, otherwise the speculation only grows, and will keep on growing.

As for FUD spreading in the forums, I think if Nokia is reliant on a community effort to keep the baby N900 alive and kicking, then FUD will be a cheap price for it to pay. Nokia can't have all the open-ness of a community developing for it, but then get all upset when the community don't like some of the decisions it's making.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

It is sold as a mobile computer with the Internet in its heart, and it was introduced as 'step 4 of 5' for tech leaders / lovers. If you want a mature Nokia mobile phone with extensive Java support and full SIM features then there are plenty of choices based on Series40 and Symbian. I think Nokia has been clear on that since http://maemo.nokia.com was launched this Summer.

The N900 is the best mobile device I have ever got. I'm really happy with it, using it at all times. I have met plenty of very interesting people with the income and the chance to buy whatever high-end device, and they had an N900.

Others might have different opinions, of course.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Agreed, and I'm sure we all appreciate the opportunity to communicate with him directly.

Smartphones are expensive devices. They're not disposable, nor do they have a very short useful shelf life - indeed, even without any further updates we can all accept the N900 would remain useful for several more years, basically until it suffered a hardware failure.

I can't help but think however the game has changed somewhat over the last few years. I hate to mention them again, but since it was introduced the iPhone has been supported with numerous software updates. No doubt that will not always be the case, but Apple has shown that sales of new hardware can continue to rise even when older devices gain the same new software functionality. Perhaps new hardware sells because old devices are supported. Nokia, I think, just want to shift more devices and prematurely end updates in order to achieve that end - that's becoming increasingly hard to swallow.

One thing is for sure, I would rather make the choice to buy new hardware because the new hardware offers me more features, or a nice new design, or more power.

I don't want to buy new hardware simply because it has all the software bugs fixed that nobody had the time to address in my old device.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Yes, we do. Do you know when developers had access to even earliest pre-Alpha SDK releases for Fremantle? Without any registration?

Yes we do. We know when Harmattan will be released, don't we? And we knew when to expect Fremantle.


Yes, we do. We know that Harmattan will be built upon Qt, have system wide portrait mode, multitouch,...

Yes, we do. I got major OS updates for the 770 and the N800. The N900 is only 3 months old, what major system update would you expect? (I have a feeling, though, that PR1.2 will be anything but minor.)

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Would it be unreasonable to expect pure OSS Maemo/N900 at the end of its life cycle (meaning Nokia doesn't support/sell it anymore) ?

Since MeeGo is a complete re-write I fail to see what interesting informations competitors could get from an open Maemo/N900. Although, I could be wrong on this presumption (?)

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

We may actually know more about what is coming in Harmattan than what is left to come in Fremantle! :) and :(

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Please, please, please.

• First Maemo 5 SDK release: 2008-12-08 http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5-0/
• Actual device release: (Late) Nov 2009

That means Nokia gave you ... nearly one year of actual access to "the code for developers" _BEFORE_ the launch of the actual device!

Compare with Apple:

• 3.0 Beta: March 17, 2009
• 3.0 Actual release: Summer 2009

Less than half a year!

EDIT: As for rest of points I have nothing extra to say since they have been answered already.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

See, I read those same questions and the answers seemed clear enough to me. Either the askers aren't paying attention or (more graciously) not fully grasping the answers. That's one of the things that's so frustrating here!

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Quim, I did not say you or anyone had made any decision. I was speaking in present perfect sense.

And height, scope... that can be seen as semantics. My point was that there are people hammering you for decisions and changes outside your scope. I had thought you would be grateful for the clarification...

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Harmattan. Not yet, obviously, but when it's out I see no reason that it shouldn't be supported on the N900 in the same way that the latest iPhone OS releases are available on all the existing iPhone hardware.

Partly because, like Milhouse, I don't fancy buying new hardware just for the bug fixes, and partly because of the effect on 3rd party development. If each release is restricted to one single device it's harder to build up a critical mass of potential users for would-be developers to target. Apple don't go to the trouble of handing out free updates for older devices because they're nice people, they do it because it helps both developers and users feel secure about the future. Nokia doesn't do it, and the result is that people don't feel secure, hence this thread being created in the first place.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

[QUOTE=Milhouse;551743]

Smartphones are expensive devices. They're not disposable, nor do they have a very short useful shelf life - indeed, even without any further updates we can all accept the N900 would remain useful for several more years, basically until it suffered a hardware failure.
________

You are far better than I then. For me, the N900 is my primary work phone (even though some keep saying it is not a phone) and gets extensive use for all sorts of things. I travel often and if I can get 2 years of useful service I will be happy. Besides, two years from now, even in the backwards US, we may have 4G service and that will require a new device.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I have hundreds of subscribed threads in this forum. Only a handful of them have any of this activity in them.

If you're reading threads with sensational titles about topics which have very little solid information about them, you're asking for rants, FUD, and noise. I usually keep one or two of these threads in my subscription list for fun, but mostly I ignore them.

We're all smart people here. Honestly, we all know what to do.

• Unless you're a moderator going in to close a thread or something, don't bother with provocative troll threads. Don't even read them. You've got way better things to do.
• Don't try to play forum paladin here. Nokia doesn't need defenders from trolls. If you're posting defenses against FUD, you're actually part of the problem. No seriously, cut it out. If you are a Maemo employee and you post a defence that includes some new information, that's different.
• If you notice that a young thread is a few pages long and very active, it is probably going to be noisy. If you're the type that doesn't like that atmosphere, stay out. If you don't like crowds, you don't walk into a pub that is standing-room only, do you?
• Use the "thread search", "forum search" and "power search" functions in the forums to find stuff that you're interested in, rather than just visiting the "New Posts" page and jumping into the most active threads.
• Get involved in some actual development / testing / wiki maintenance work around here. You'll find your opinion of the forums improving.

Oh and I chuckled at benny1967's lovely roadmap example ;)

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Obviously hardware designs fall out of fashion, and devices of today will eventually be considered underpowered when compared with devices two or more years into the future, but fundamentally the N900 will continue to do the job it was designed to do for many years to come. In much the same way that a Nokia 3310 works just fine today - doing the job it was designed to do.

I'm not saying I would keep or use my N900 for 2+ years though, however if I were to sell it on or hand it to a family member or even keep it for 12-18 months which is typical for me, it would be nice to know it still had support and/or bug fixes coming down the line. That's the situation with other competing products. And that's how they are rapidly growing a large user base, with consistent cross-product releases.

While the N900 may have app support in future - thanks to Qt compatibility - I'm just not convinced the N900 will get all the bug fixes it deserves. The only way I can see that happening is, unfortunately, to ensure that Harmattan is made available for the N900 otherwise the N900 with Maemo5 is just one more costly mis-step on the way to Nokia/MeeGo nirvana. :)

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

A separate post for this:

Everyone keeps saying, "OS updates on iPhone still work on old devices" without realizing that this actually means that the new devices must be underperforming in order to maintain compatibility.

I for one would rather have a compatibility layer (ie a compatible version of QT and web runtime) on Maemo 5 to run MeeGo apps rather than castrating Harmattan in order to make it run on old devices.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I'll take exception to part of that with this caveat: proactive thread moderation, ie steering the topic, can go a long way toward defusing troll-type threads (rather than simply closing them, the easy way out). In fact this forum is full of threads that started off as troll outbursts and were quickly rendered into productive dialog. Even OrangeBox had a couple.

Unfortunately, we come up lacking in the area of proactive moderation, and instead highly rely on the reactive flavor. :(

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I just can't resist.
You all, ranting bout apple iphone updates are quite narrow minded.

First. iPhone 2G has half baked 3.0 update and won't be supported in the future.

Second. You're missing the point of actually open os. If iPhone user won't get an update - he's doomed to live with current software. If maemo user doesn't have a feature that he wants - he creates it with his own hands. Look at fmms or USSD dialer. Or many other apps. This is how it works here, welcome to the wonderful new world, where creators can breathe. If you came up with something worthy but you can't do it yourself - just ask the community, we're much friendlier than you think.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

not really, saying that is like saying windows 7 is designed with reduced performace/functions because it also works on intel pentium 4/amd barton cpus.

a good designed OS can run on both setup and utilise the hardware to its full potentional.

edit: with good driver support from from manufactures

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

It takes a high level of hardware abstraction to make that true.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

yes but with the size of these big companies its possible for mobile device.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Yes, and I believe MeeGo is going make it happen.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I wouldn't dare to suggest that Harmattan should be made available on 770/N8x0... or for that matter MeeGo on those devices as that's a compromise too far (but if it happens - one way or another - great!)

However if the Harmattan platform is not a million miles from the Fremantle platform, it becomes a little more difficult to understand how or why an upgrade could not be made available. Ultimately I think this will become - if it's not already - a business decision.

Not that I would be asking for Harmattan if the outstanding bugs in Fremantle could be fixed, but many won't be fixed because they involve changes that are too deep or time consuming so instead they're pushed to Harmattan. And many of these bugs originated in Diablo, with promises of being fixed in a future OS!

Supporting Maemo is a bit like being dragged around by a carrot and stick. :)

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

To be honest, as far as the 'FUD' question goes, it doesn't matter whether Harmattan is going to be available on the N900. What matters is that we know what the plans are either way. Until we do, there's going to be uncertainty, and fear.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

MeeGo is supposed to run on phones, netbooks, cars and TVs, amongst other things. I think a high level of hardware abstraction is pretty much a given.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

If the reasons preventing it are purely business ones, then, yes, I'd expect an upgrade. :)

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

Meego schmeego...

For the average N900 owner/user the fear is that the unfinished features of the N900 will remain unfinished.
PC Suite, OVI Suite, or Any Dang Suite support is just one example

For the average N900 owner/user the uncertainty is that there seems to be no outlet other than maemo.org for any information about these issues. (The MFE thread is a an example.)

For the average N900 owner/user the doubt is fueled by the apparent rapid change over to Meego giving the impression that resources have already been pulled from Maemo.

I'm thinkin' the average N900 owner/user wouldn't give a rat's butt about Meego/Harmattan/N920 or whatever Nokia wants to call it. They care about their N900 and whether it will be useful to them in the future.

IMHO... These things^ are the source of a lot of the FUD and it won't go away until NOKIA addresses the issues with either a Maemo5 road-map or a simple statement stating Maemo5 is as good as it gets.

Before anyone points to a Wiki page that was just published on a maemo.org site or the notes from maemo.org members visit to a many months old summit... Nokia can not have it's cake and eat it too with regard to this community.

What existing and potential N900 owner/users should have are more Nokia provided resources, not community provided ones.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

This is FUD. I have fought against this type of FUD my entire career. I've even gone behind bosses backs to avoid this common misconception. I've also begged in front of boss and peers, that if they were having problems maintaining compatibility, please come and see me.

But that's not the norm, and it's sad. This is the only topic where I praise Microsoft, until Vista, they got this right better than anyone. And whoever said that Apple and the like retain customers for this very reason were right on. The Linux kernel guys get it, but they might be wavering. Give me a bloated kernel that I can reconfigure and slim down myself, but don't cut anyone off.

Deadlines cause panic. Panic causes bad decisions. Bad decisions lead to incompatibility for usually no good reason.

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

So how bout it Nokia? Feel like disclosing any new information to us supporters of Maemo/N900 with regards to Meego on this device, or will it always be "we cannot say one way or the other" ******** up until the day something does(or does not) happen?

Re: Cleaning N900 FUD
 

I must say, we keep walking in circles time and time again, in many threads, but we won't break the cycle until this question is answered clearly.

Or until a Maemo 5 roadmap is revealed that addresses what people is asking for (more portrait, Java, profiles, etc).