Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

You are talking about application level compatibility (the ’MeeGo API’ as provided by Harmattan). If we are to transplant a whole UX and any custom services, that is not enough, we need to ensure a certain level of system level compatibility, which may or may not be an easy task (no way to tell before the harmattan SDK). It has been communicated that there ARE system and middleware level differences between MeeGo and Harmattan (deb vs rpm anyone?).

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Carsten please correct me if I'm wrong, but scope of this discussion is to make the MeeGo-Harmattan stack work in the N900.

Running the MeeGo stack in the N900 is a goal covered already by the MeeGo project through the team coordinated by Harri.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

No, you're perfectly right. The scope of this discussion is making MeeGo-Harmattan stack work in the N900, as I've started discussing in an earlier post.

I think the confusion lies in that people don't know exactly what Harmattan is and the MeeGo branding of it adding to the confusion. And then the thread derailed completely :) And that people don't know exactly what MeeGo is (Harmattan adding to the confusion..)

To make it perfectly clear. The Harmattan stack is an evolved Fremantle (as I understand it), that is, a Debian package based system, which is supposed to be MeeGo compliant, ie, it implements the same APIs applications would expect to find on a 'proper' MeeGo (rpm based) system.

It would be the first system implementing the MeeGo APIs and a MeeGo UX plus applications etc from Nokia's side. And what people would want to upgrade to. Either by buying a new device with Harmattan, or by running the community backport of Harmattan.

A proper 'MeeGo' (RPM based system) with Nokia differentiations, is yet to be seen - hence we can't want to backport it yet :) Give MeeGo (RPM based) time to mature. When it is, I bet it runs on N900 without big problems.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Before anyone can talk about "services" and "commercial" apps (e.g. skype) we need a fully-working foundation.

Before we even think about the MeeGo UI on the n900 we need a fully-working foundation.

As it stands now, MeeGo on the n900 seems to be heading in the right direction. The imminent next MeeGo release will be almost fully-functioning - with closed source components.

What would make sense it to do another release, include the closed source components and ensure from a technical point-of-view all components are in place and fully-working.

Install some kind of window manager/desktop - it does not have to be a final UI but something people can work with and then anyone can start coding apps (e.g. phone app, battery monitor) and start "fleshing-out" the UI.

Ideally there should not be any closed source components in the platform but it allows us to have a fully working device. Over time we can replace these with open source versions and reach the goal of a truly open sourced mobile device.

Btw: I can't remember where I read this but after the next release of MeeGo for the n900 the release cycle is going to be every 6 months?

Would it not be better to have a rolling-release as functionality is completed?

For me the first major milestone is a fully-functioning layer without the UI.

Then someone could install a window manager (e.g. xfce) and start writing apps (e.g. make phone calls, messaging).

Does this make sense?

What do others think?

Am I just rambling a lot of nonsense?

Where's my coffee?

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

@qgil excellent, so are Nokia allowing the community to ship the same UX and apps that are on the Harmattan device as a community build for the N900?

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Am I right saying that the real question is what APIs/packages BESIDES the MeeGo ones are used by the UX and services in Harmattan ? For example if some bundled or system app/service uses the Ovi API or a particular gstreamer element, then we will have to make that API/lib available on the community port, too, regardless of it’s status in MeeGo for the N900.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Right, besides the hardware support components, leave MeeGo for N900 out of it.

Community port would be whatever the content the device image for a Harmattan device would have, with modifications + additions in the package list to make it work on N900.

Nokia binaries we probably won't have trouble with, 3rd party ones we might. Some 3rd parties we can just put in a token repository on tablets-dev (DSP binaries, GLES libs, etc), some are more difficult..

Perceive it as it being possible to take whatever the images are made of (repositories access, hence packages), a list of packages and build an image for N900 out of that..

Then we'll see what real problems we have. Technical, not many.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

@johnel

This thread is about bringing Harmattan to the N900. To put it bluntly, Harmattan is Maemo 6, not MeeGo. MeeGo compliant, maybe.

Now Harri and his team are working on MeeGo on N900. And I'd really expect MeeGo handheld UX to come with open applications needed for the essentials, making calls, sending messages, etc. What's the point if it doesn't? (check the MeeGo bugzilla for components you can file bugs against in the Handheld UX category)

These two projects may be partially intertwined (HW adaptation, parts of the UX maybe) but are not the same.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

This is new to me.
What is the source of this information?

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Ahhh! Thanks for clearing up my confusion!

I expected the MeeGo handheld UX would be basic GUI. With essential apps is even better that I was expecting.

This will be in the version of MeeGo for the n900?

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

A link to the relevant Wiki page in the first post would be good.
As interested I am about the issue, I got tired of reading the discussion after 6 pages.
When things get as clear they can get currently, update a Wiki-page (?) and insert the location into the first post, please.

(I also am little dissapointed. Previously I had an impression Nokia will officially support Meego on N900. I guess things change, like with WAP, Pop-Port, N-Gage, Visual Radio, PoC, DVB-H,....)

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Short advice: keep the work going and don't worry about redistribution at this point. We will find a reasonable way to deal with this.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

So, Harmattan is not MeeGo. It's only called MeeGo, but it is still Maemo. It's not MeeGo product, but MeeGo instance.

OK. Got it. Now it's clear.

So, this thread is about creating MeeGo product which contains Harmattan components, on the contrary to MeeGo instance contained in Harmattan.

Understood. It's not confusing anymore.
I was under the impression that Nokia is working on MeeGo product, but they are not. They are working on MeeGo instance and THIS thread is about community created MeeGo product dedicated for N900.

Don't you worry that you will loose audience as soon Nokia launches Harmattan device and starts working on MeeGo device? Similarly to how Mer lost traction once N900 got released.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

No, the thread is about bringing the MeeGo instance contained in Harmattan to N900. Ie, bring Harmattan to N900. Harmattan on N900.

My (personal) hope is that it is really a trivial port. Similar to how we ported Maemo5 to Beagleboard and Zoom2.. both OMAP3 devices with similar hardware.. But audience.. everyone moves on sometime.

This project is to bridge the gap till MeeGo (RPM based) is mature enough and has differentiation available and we can want to port that to N900. It isn't a new 'big project', it's similar to a mini project like Maemo on Beagle was. And best of all, it is a project to have the N900 not be left behind. And a realistic one of the sort.

It's been a failure if we don't have something working properly on N900 by Harmattan release (or whatever comes right before).

Goal would be to make the hardware adaptation stand on it's own so it can be easily maintained and follow Harmattan releases with ease. Done just right, it would be a minimal set of patches towards Harmattan + some binaries to support N900.

Beginnings would be patching against what is being released in the Harmattan alpha, beta releases. Building images with that, configurations, etc.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

So what was released from MeeGo for the n900 (e.g. the images)?


I'm confused!

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

The MeeGo Core (RPM based system, formerly known as Moblin) + Nokia N900 hardware adaptation. In due time, MeeGo Core + hardware adaptation + Handset UX (from MeeGo project).

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

You can ask this over in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=53571 , 'MeeGo hardware adaptation for N900'

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Sorry, but I can't agree with that, Nokia is not even trying to do its best!!! If they were we would have official support for Meego on N900... just that simple...

It is your job role to defend Nokia's decision here at this forum, but don't think the members here are that naive... The announcement of PR1.2 was strategically used to tell us what Nokia have decided several months ago... As discussed many times the official support for Meego on N900 was a business decision (thus, MONEY related), not due to technical restrictions.

Considering that N900 was launched just half a year ago I don't have any doubt the Meego project was already part of Nokia's roadmap, and yet you launched N900 already knowing that Maemo 5 would not be the priority in just a couple of months!!

You can try to argue in many threads about the application portability with Qt4.6, keep Maemo 5 support with PR1.3 on the roadmap, Meego community version for the N900 and so on... and don't worry, some fanboys will still buy it!! But I am sure there are a lot of users like me who can see that's just excuses to avoid hurting current N900 sales, and the related promises will probably be forgotten once the first Nokia Meego device is launched...

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

So, why don't you say so?
The topic and first post is completely misleading. Especially the "MeeGo based" term.

In other words, its "Mer reloaded"? :)

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Please be realistic.
Nokia is a business company, not a charity foundation.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Exactly. Just because we paid for this top-of-the-line phone who are we to expect a decent level of support. /s

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

The MeeGo on future Nokia devices is optimized for capacitive touch. Nokia has promised app compatibility through qt and until they fail to uphold that end of the bargain, bringing out the pitchforks is useless.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

There were three firmware updates for N900 already.
It's more than other manufacturers usually deliver.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

You can say all you want about the iPhone not having copy / paste and etc but 2+ years after its release they got iPhone 3 OS. Where will we be? 3 patch updates in the last few months is great but will we really see Maemo 5 + 2 revs 2 years from now?

The question isn't how hard engineering has worked the last few months, the question is the intended direction of the platform which is precarious at best.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

ROTFL.
iPhone, iPhone, iPhone...

We have our own Godwin's law on TMO ;-)

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Yes, businesses always have to aim to improve their bottomline... but there are many ways on how they can do that. Screwing their existing fanbase is quite easily arguably bad for business.

These are the people who have Nokia at the top of their shopping list when it comes time to upgrade their old phones.

These are the people that will speak out positively for you when you can't.

These are the people whom have supported Nokia in the past and they're still here for Nokia through these tough times.

What I'm trying to say is that... you don't have to try to screw everyone else for your own benefit on every opportunity. Aligning their interest with their fanbase can pay huge dividend in the long run.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

3 new OSes?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9DdROG6amX...h/orly_owl.jpg

EDIT: Sorry for going offtopic

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Could you please take that discussion here so that this one stays on topic?

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Well, in this case its behavior that should be emulated.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

So a Nokia employee should not be telling they did everything they could...

I am well aware about business decision process. Just answer me this one question: Do you really believe Nokia was not even talking with Intel about Meego when Maemo 5 was launched last year? If you think Nokia & Intel CEOs just came out with the idea of merging Moblin and Maemo during a weekend barbecue around Feb/March this year, I won't argue with you anymore...

The fact is that Nokia always knew Maemo 5 was born dead, and since they are not a charity foundation, they did everything to hide this information from everybody for 2 main reasons:
- Not hurting N900 sales (remember it is still about to be launched in some countries, including mine...)
- Keeping the community developing within Nokia platforms with all the Qt4.6 revolutionary marketing, while they could be writing applications for competitors like Android or iPhone...

That's really good business for them, but not all Nokia fans will buy it. At least for me it was a terrible business to spend more than 600 bucks on a device I am sure it won't last more than a year... Don't be naive, PR1.2 was the last effective FW for Maemo 5, every other release like PR1.3 will be minor bug corrections, just to quiet down the owners until the Meego device is launched. I am not speculating about that, it is just common sense as it is not cheap to keep OS support for a little user base, so it would be charity to keep that for a long time!!

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Um.. ok then...
:rolleyes:

***

Back on topic sort of:

Quim, in your opening post you mentioned "an engineering mindset". Do you believe that the N900's CPU Frequency as shipped will be able to handle some of these components gracefully or will adjustments have to be made?

What other hardware limitations, if any, will have to be overcome with regard to running an N900 with this Hacker/Community edition of Harmattan? and the apps that Nokia will ship in the first device based on MeeGo?

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

I find it hilarious that people don't even realize what this means. How about I yell it?

HARMATTAN ON N900!!
HARMATTAN ON N900!!
HARMATTAN ON N900!!

Anyway, let me just say "voi ei!" can't some marketing staff help you convince the business guys that, yes you really do need to be allowed to say more, for the sake of happy community? =P Good luck with that!

And to all you whiners and doomsayers, eat crowwww.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

The above is the truth of it.

Apple and Droid have far better track records on this. Those who do not have fanboy rose tinted glasses on when they bought the device are those that are going to remain happy with their device in the future.

Shame on us who didnt do the homework on Nokia's past behaviour and had rose tinted glasses on when we bought the device.

Nokia will not change until consumers tell them to change. Use your power as a consumer accordingly - inform your friends before they fall for Nokia's spin.

PR1.2 is the last major yodate. I bet my n900 phone that when Meego is released, the N900 will NOT be able to access the ecosystem that Nokia will build around Meego. The n900 is a dead device. If you are not happy with it NOW as of 1.2, sell it. You will be happier in the long run.

As for "Open" community support for the Meego OS, past record of such "Open" support have been failures from a usable product standpoint. Do not expect any different this time.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Please keep this thread to technical discussion. If you want to be pissed about reality, go to one of the other threads.

This thread is about fixing reality to give us something that works on our devices in collaboration with Nokia who is really doing the right thing and providing ability for us to do this properly.

Now, on to the technical part. Who's in for helping out once Harmattan alpha/beta comes around? Not so much in UI department, but in general system hacking.

List your interest in where you think you can help out and what you'd need to have to do your job properly.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

As I already told you on IRC, my Anemo project has a bit different goals. But extracting viable Harmattan components and repackaging them could only help on functionality, so you can count me in. :)

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Not relevant to this discussion.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

About the confusion, try this: No release from meego.com will give you Ovi Maps for the N900. This project here attempts to make MeeGo-Harmattan Ovi Maps (and the rest of Nokia/Ovi apps) work in the N900.

If after this you still don't get it please be precise saying what you don't understand. :)

Rants about Maemo 5 updates, Nokia or even myself: please bring them somewhere else. We are trying to work on a specific goal in this thread and the extra noise doesn't really help. Besides, when it comes to business/proprietary stuff I'm just a messenger and I try to be a useful one. Don't kill me.

The proper answer could give hints about the next hardware and MeeGo-Harmattan release, which is something I want and must avoid.

Let's say that I see the effort is worth and I'm looking forward to the results just like you. It's a good idea to set the user expectations really low because we have no practical proof to show anything better yet. If the reality is better than these low expectations then it will speak for itself.

Underpromise & (if you can) overdeliver. Always works.

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

So basically,

MeeGo Core + Nokia Hardware adjustments + UI from MeeGo = "vanilla" MeeGo

Then

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments + UI from Nokia = Harmattan

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments = What's been released from MeeGo so far?

Re: N900 community support for the future MeeGo based release from Nokia
 

Harmattan = Maemo 6 + Meego compatibility layer

MeeGo Core + Nokia hardware adjustments + UI from Nokia = What-this-thread-is-about