Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Well... that's the Internet. ;)

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

clearly if I don't agree that opensource software > all I must be a troll.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

No, that fact that you're a troll makes you a troll. :D

Or a lame cross-eyed puppy.... either way, I'm still not kicking you!
(Mainly because I don't want that on my shoe.) :rolleyes:

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Thread rapidly approaching lock candidacy. Enjoy while you can.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

No one's argued that. You have, however, argued the opposite.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

It's amazing how much bullsh!!t can be splattered over the intertubes by people that clearly have no idea of the kind of calculus that goes into understanding what concepts like "better" can mean in relation to development models like "open" or "closed" source.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

a lot of people/trolls only have desire to speak..whether what is spoken is truth or otherwise is ,sadly, not important

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

why not lock those who mess the thread up instead?

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

thanks for the personal attacks. real cool bro. Sorry you don't agree with my opinion on whether bytes want to be free or not. Hey maybe next year will be the year of the Linux Desktop finally.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

I'm all for having the source code available for programs I want to learn from. I'm all for helping other people accomplish their own dreams and projects by giving them my source code.

I don't like indian givers (GPL licensed code).

There is a whole host of reasons that I have LEARNED to dislike the concept of "open source" software.

HINT: Its not because I don't like looking at source code

Hierarchies = Organization.

Organization + Financial Incentives = Excellent Code

There's a reason the best "open source" products have developed hierarchies and thats because without hierarchies code developed by more than one person is either **** or doesn't work, usually both.

Companies have hierarchies. Its implicit in how they work. Furthermore, companies (generally) have financial incentives.

The beauty of this is that companies that don't produce good code die out. Open source projects just linger.

So it has been my personal, highly subjective experience that I prefer to do business with companies and not "communities". If that company will release their source code, then hey thats awesome I'll probably be more loyal now.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

@ ZShakespeare

I personally do not agree with you being a troll.

I also don't agree with your opinion.

But I will respect your opinion in the hopes that you respect my opinion.

With that said, I think you might have had too great of a reaction to what was said. You're aggressively stating your opinion and online it tends to be met with aggression.

That's my take, imho.

Just keep it cool, calm and discussions can grow nicely. That's for all.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

are you freaking kidding? i dont recognize some of the things that are going around in this thread, but I did just read the whole thing, and a few people have given awesome counter-examples. and i also noticed at least 2 people who did, what i think is, a great job pointing out that nokias mismanagement of the n900 has nothing to do with open source and its pros and cons in the rest of the world...

you are clearly a troll... and to whoever took a swing at those who go to junkyards for car parts, whether it be to save money, or restore old cars, F*ck you.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Ok.

Labeling people because you fundamentally fail to understand what it is about does not lend any credence to your argument. In fact, it weakens it as you do not understand the target of your argument.

This is not an absolute truth.

A command structure usually develops, yes, but that does not debase open source nor does it imply that other open source projects are a total free-for-all. Go ahead, try to submit bad code to the kernel and it'll get torn apart, and not necessarily by someone who works for the Linux Foundation or even manages part of the tree.

Well no. Numerous companies churn out code of undefined quality, but you can't see it because it is closed. When they go under, the software they produced usually vanishes with them. Open source projects can linger, but their code is still around regardless of being good or bad. This is not a problem.

Then you readily and completely miss the concept, and wide-ranging functional operation of open source projects that while having a somewhat (but not totally) hierarchical command structure still have a community. After all, it's why the LKML is referred to as the Kernel community.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Oh, if you could only look behind the curtain. You'd be in for a very rude awakening.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Do you even WORK in IT where is code is written ? Have you ever written code COMMERCIALLY in a corporation ?

Companies that dont produce good code die out ??!!? hahahhaha

I am sorry, to ANYONE to has written code extensively in a corporate environment, your statements show how naive you are (or you are a marketing/managerial person). I suggest you go read Dilbert to find out why the final code written in a corporate environment often sux (hint: most of the time it has nothing to do with coder skills). And yes, Dilbert is much closer to the truth then you think.

I guess you think Microsoft Internet Explorer is the best thing since sliced bread vs open source alternatives like FireFox. Or that Windows is the most secure OS ever devised.

Anyone who says 1 is inherently superior to the other is dumb as nuts. It all depends on what specificially you are talking about. e.g. you will find ZERO very good games in Open Source (they are all closed), but you will find the best in browsers etc.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Using the word "code" was a bad choice of words. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that companies always have better achitecture in their code or that they are in any way superior coders. A better word would be "software" and specifically features. Product might be closer even.

I'll admit that statement is poorly worded. A better rendering of the though I was trying to get across is:
Companies produce good software (good being a measurement of innovative features, performance, and affordance) and the ones that don't die out.

That isn't to say that companies that produce good software don't also die out.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

In this instance I do understand fully the philosophical and practical natures that the GPLs embody. I don't agree with it. It certainly has lots of good points, but also lots of stupidity.

I guess I should delineate what I meant.

The best software is unarguably made by organized person(s). The best open source projects are organized. The very best ones are companies.

Once they become companies, while they are still certainly driven by the communities, the real innovation comes from those directly involved with the company, and not the random "spare-time" coders. Certainly those spare-timers might contribute a lot in a lot of different ways, and may be the lifeblood of those projects. Ultimately though, the "open-source"ness of those projects is different from the "open-source"ness of projects that are done by groups of people who just do it in their spare time.

I find no use for people who produce bad code in their spare time and pronounce it holier than Microsoft simply because its open source.

Please don't ruin my naive faith in the ultimate victory of Capitalism.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Certainly hope so.

Of course, nothing good really comes from chaos.

Yes, organized projects tend to work well.

Unfounded statement. Corporations can and do churn out utter crap. Sometimes they get away with charging millions for it.

When you're paid to work on things, yes, lots more focus can be paid to a project. This is why the Linux Foundation exists and why things like MeeGo, the Linux Kernel, and other efforts are being started under it.

Not necessarily. Many very, very open projects have full time coders yet are still extremely open. Lots of people are driving many major open source projects both with spare time coders and full time, dedicated people working on them. There is no problem with this, and extensive openness is retained for all users.

Well those people often tend to be wrong. But they have no bearing on the overall situation though.

I do not believe you delineated what you hate about the GPL, which makes me wonder if you understand what the GPL means as a license, or if you're simply reacting to something without fully understanding it.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

f.... all! I guess once meego is out then there will be a lot more happening on this scene. Nokia and everyone are not going to or do much for maemo as you can see they already took the p*ss in releasing the pr1.2 update which hasn't done much for us really, u have to be honest with yourself on that 1. A lot of promises were made on the release of the n900 but everone can see that its just simply being brushed aside and not spoke much of now.
but then again what is better handset/device than this at the moment? nothing, pretty much all the handsets have bugs or issues and none are better to get unless its the iphone oh but wait it doesnt have multi tasking at the moment but the new 1 will. But still apart from apple there is nothing really and then again apple is just a big kiddies phone.
Im ok with the n900 wether all the bugs, lack of apps and whole open source ideas/commitments have gone down the toilet....the device itself does a good job. We really just need a solid fw update that can fix at least 90% of the issues and a bag of some fun touch screen games and useful apps.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

badboyuk,
http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.1
http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.1.1
http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_5/PR1.2
That´s huge amount of bug fixes. Maybe not ones what you would like but still huge amount. We can argue that should or should not these bugs exists in device out of box but that´s waste of time. Point is that people tend to speak about "bugs"even thought they meant to speak about enhancements and added features. So you have huge amount of bugs. Care to make list with links to bugzilla so we can discuss :)

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

See the massive snowball that is open source software that has been rolling ang growing and will be taking over everything, given time? So far, it has taken over the internet, the embedded space and supercormputing. It's coming for your phone and finally the desktop. In time, you won't even be able to code and sell a proprietary game engine, because good enough or better ones will be available for free.

But for all this to happen will take years or decades yet.

Anyway, linux and open source and software freedom will be rolling along. That's just inevitable.

More interestingly it is also right and good ethically, while proprietaryness (in all its usefullness and shinyness) is wrong and bad.

Eventually FOSS will be usable and shiny across the board too.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

h3llraz0r is back making more utterly pointless flamebait threads, doing his best to ruin a great community :(

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

@ZShakespeare, ffffffuuuuuu and PradaBrada:

Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer and Steve Jobs is that you?

Btw: "What Have The Romans Ever Done For Us?"

http://content9.flixster.com/questio...711439_std.jpg

:D

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Here is a selfish reason for you to support/encourage open source....Just image the company/programmer/source of the program/code/etc that you love/use daily has disappeared from the face of this earth for some reason(eg. company bankrupt, programmer(the team) with the knowledge was disbanded/let-go, source code destroy by fire and etc) and you have just discovered a specific bug(that is critical to your need). What would/could you do now? So, here is what open source can do for you:

1. If you got the source code and you have the skill set and the time, you would fix the code yourself
2. If you got the source code, you can hire someone with sufficient skill to fix bug or add stuff for you.

A side benefit: you are not lock-in to the company that provides you the original program to begin with. You would choose to stay with the company, if they provide you with acceptable(ie. to your standard, eg. how long is too long to be waiting on the phone for the support call) of after sale-service(eg. bug fix, responses to enhancement requests)

Open source s/w development turns the s/w company business model from that of selling widget to that of services. Many traditional s/w companies do not like it; because they can no longer use the lock-in to make their money.

I will let other to discuss other non-selfish good social benefits of the Open Source development model and GPL.

Cheers,

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Speaking of which... "Cheddar Cheese, 250 grams."

???

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

If we are to use the physical world as a rough analogue of what we've been building in our virtual/information universe... opensource has been very prevalent in creating the buildings, roads, interchanges, flyover, bridges and such... which are the infrastructure to house, transport and manage the contents (os, network stack, db, messaging services, etc) but not of the content themselves.

I think this is quite evident too when comparing the app selections between the handheld platforms...

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone os brought us?
 

You and your tired Basement dwellers argument is trite and old.
I understand how you might have inherited that idea, but point is the open source world has moved on to better and more important places but you have remained stuck in your mire - fossilised with your old idea.

Let me tell you - when I started playing with Linux on desktops and servers, corporate America wouldn't touch Linux with a bargepole.
It wasnt tried and tested and prioven in the financial field for example. Free brought to mind old ideas which you spout TODAY.

But TODAY - corporate America is all over Linux. All financial (and I mean ALL BIG) companies are running Linux in their data centers having abandoned Sun systems and IBM big irons a long time.
(In fact a manager would be questioned if he didn't examine Linux as a option in the datacenter today - since performance and cost wise it is one of the strongest contender).

The stage now is where even desktop solutions are being looked at from the open sourced world. I myself am involved with the architectural committee of a major financial investment bank and we use open sourced ETL tools instead of big brand names.

Many other companies I know use opens sourced and GPL'd (the basement dweller reference that you mention) software on their desktops too. And all this happening right where money speaks - corporate America.

So yes buddy Brada, you are as old as a fossil probably. The world aint waiting for you and your old trite arguments.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Uhh, dumbass, if it's open source, it's as good as WE make it. If you don't want to help, fine. STFU. It's not up to Nokia to do everything perfect right away.

(if that's harsh, i'm offended by his name :D)

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

What, you mean avatars have to be sensible or relevant now?!

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

The aqueduct?

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Loads of material for "Time Team"?

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Are you flaimbaiting??? ;)

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

It's funny to see those same arguments which where there 10 years go still here, though most of them are proven wrong.

Open Source is no success? Today, when it is nearly impossible get a highend smartphone without any open source on it?

Today, when it is very hard to find a company or privat household in germany (or most likely anywhere) without running open source software in it.

Today, when we are getting near to the point where there are more linux kernels running on the world at any given time than windows kernels? (Think of dsl/wlan-routers in private homes, android phones, servers, N900s, (the first 4 mostly running 24/7) normal linux desktops *g*)

10 years ago people like you (to the OP and others with same opinions) told as that linux and open source will never have a hugh market share. And well they couldn't be more wrong.

And well on the commercial side:

Let's look at Apple/iPhone and Safari. Apple took kthml/kjs (a truly community based open source html renderer/javascript interpreter part of the KDE project) and made it into Webkit. Apple did this, because it enabled them to deliver a better product with less cost or in less time. Apple had and has developers working on Webkit (as has Nokia). The are paid for it. In fact the iPhone and Nokia customers pay them.

If open source enables companys to deliver better products at lower costs, than open source enables you to get better products at a lower price.

Or if you have a company or want to develop something for the fun of it: You can get a world class html renderer (Webkit) a lightweight and relible database engine (sqlite (which is in the iPhone for example)) (and lots of other components) and builds on that. Building something like Webkit from the grounds would cost you millions.

So yes, open source enables companys to do things they othersways never could affort to do. And thus enable products which wouldn't exist (at least in this quality) without it. So open source is very successfull.

I believe most IT companies are using open source either as software tools in house or as components in their products.

Yes, all those examples (iPhones, Routers and so on) are only partly based on open source. But still, some of their core features are based on it. And you can go and get the sources of it and build your on devices/software to use those components.

Open source is an enomours success on every level. :-)

And there are still valid reasons for closed source software. But the can happly coexist.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

@DanielW: If by 'opensource' success, you're talking about the prevalent distribution and usage of opensource codes... then I completely agree. It's everywhere in the digital backrooms. They're pretty much the pillars of our digital society now, well except for those completely MS-run places.

But if its gauged by popularity or public's awareness of OSS and what it stands for? I'm betting the incremental increase is mainly represented by comsci students or those computer-geeks out there. Even the laymen who've heard of opensource may not know what it represents. They'll sing to the tune of "Free software" before you find the few gems that would say anything more beyond that.

Apple base a LOT of their offerings on opensource components (apache or bsd licenses?). Just take a look at OSX server. But do the users know about this? Is that important to the OSS movement?

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

OK, most users don't know. Most people know Firefox is free. But they understand it just as doesn't cost anything.

But des that really matter? More and more software is going open. More and more components of the software we use are free/open.

The average user knows that there is free (as in free beer) software like Ubuntu, Firefox, OpenOffice. Some of them even now what FOSS is. That is as much as those users can get from open surce. (OK there is something more like getting in contact with the community get part of it without being a developer)

People with developoment skills well most of them know that there are lots of open source software which they can use, and modifiy or learn from them. Quite some of them understand FOSS on a higher level.

Some goals like getting software, software we all depend on freely avaible to everyone (or at least good alternatives), also free to change, distribute and get part of it, well that goal of FOSS will success further without everyone and his mother knowning what free software is all about.

And then there is Wikipedia. Not exactly open source. But based on the same "Free" idea with a similar copyleft licence. Wikipedia does a pretty good job at bringing the idea to the masses. Nearly everybody knows that there is Wikipedia. That he is free to edit it. They all may not know the exact terms on which ground he can distribute it or change it and so one, but well it helps alout to distribute the idea of Free content/free software/free knowledge.

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone os brought us?
 

Im very grateful to the Open Source community for all they bring, what would I do without Python on my N900? :)

It's funny you mention this, as Ive spent all day (UK time) supporting and integrating adapters between two data centres (for services running on Sun Solaris and Wintel) with .Net frameworks, MSMQ, and Tibco. The client is among the very largest of the US financial companies.

Unfortunately my mate is on the client's Unix team (outsourced), he received notice yesterday that the team was cutting down to bare bones. Today the Unix team was actually disbanded, with immediate effect, and he's trying to get into another team at work. It may be work rumours, but he believes that the Solaris servers will be going and he's been advised there will be a lot of opportunities coming along for .Net in the very near future.

I dont know anything outside where I work, but certainly from my own current experience doesn't really align. Not that Im arguing with you, I just thought Id mention it :)

Edit: I should also say, I have requested Firefox for my development machine but it's not on an approved list. Neither is Eclipse, nor who knows how many other open source projects. All US financial companies are maybe not the open source Utopia that we'd like :o

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone os brought us?
 

Ordinarily, I don't feed trolls, but the epic amounts of shite in this post gives me the need to speak out.

I am a professional Linux system administrator, and have been for 12 years. Yes, this means I get paid to do Linux at work. Not only that, but I work on the machines that were responsible for mapping the human genome and they are Linux clusters. Sure, we have Solaris, Mac and Windows within the institute, but far and away, the vast majority of our machines are Linux. So not only do I not do anything useful with the knowledge, it is also the primary source of income for my family.

At home, I have a data center rack with half a dozen 32- and 64-bit machines. Between bare metal and virtual machines, workstations, laptops, my N810 and servers, I have nearly two dozen machines running at home, doing most of the functions of an internet site, including firewalls, security servers, DNS, DHCP, wiki, network monitors, log server, DVR...Need I go on?

I am also a Debian/GNU Linux developer, a Linux User Group member and a podcaster, which means I also volunteer my time to make Linux better and to educate users.

You, sir, should stop making generalizations about Linux and Linux users, since it is obvious, based on your post, that you have nary a clue as to what you speak of.

Regards,
--vr

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

why is almost everyone off-topic? i was clearly talking about how maemo is so bad compared to android and how people are hiding behind the "open source" and "linux" labels with nothing much to prove. am i the only one who thinks that the application man. is full of ****?

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Maemo is so bad compared to android...please expatiate

Re: what has "open source" and "linux" phone/tablet maemo os brought us?
 

Open source actually works pretty much all the time. But you are spot on with the last sentence. A pragmatic approach is a must, and it is not without reason that Poppy is the most widely used Linux of all (as well as the most fascinating piece of software ever created :) ).