Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Understood, but the fact is I did close the thread that triggered this one, and my final comments were addressed-- at first obliquely and then specifically. Couple that with the fact that I have closed several threads of that nature lately and there was really no way of divorcing me from the actions.

I got my hackles up mainly because I saw a defense of rank behavior at the root of the protests. Maybe that was the wrong aspect on which to focus. It's just that's where I'm coming from vis-a-vis the subject.

I'm just stymied on identifying a common complaint and then moving to a majority-agreed solution that doesn't negatively impact a rational minority. I don't even think it's possible-- which again is why my approach will default to the will of the general community. And the only complaint I get from the rank and file is that moderation is not hEAVY enough...

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I agree that we need a rant subforum, which doesn't appear in the new posts search. Let's create it and be liberal in moving threads there.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

In that respect at least, we are blessed by MeeGo being vendor independant. People complaining about a vendor on MeeGo's forums are very much in the wrong place, and I think as a result we won't see so much of it.

(on my n900, so please be patient if you want a reply.)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I think we just need to make a subforum for them to let off their steam. A designated red light district. With that in place, then it's easier to see who's barging on inappropriately into other threads just to troll so they can be dealt with properly.

In a couple of months, they'll move on to MeeGo forums anyway :D
but will we all as well?

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I find that looking at the big picture helps. Also, putting myself in their shoes helps relief my anger.

I can very much relate to the Asshats. Before the n900. I did not know what Maemo was. I wouldn't have recognized the name. n900 opened the door here.

That's simply because during the begining or even now. To truely feel happy about using the n900. You need to come HERE and get the goodies. There absolutely nothing to help from the official Nokia channels side. That's why people come here you see. I get that. And when people come, they come in all sorts. We have to adapt, that's all.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I really think we need a vote with Reggie's involvement in a "Backyard", a real "By the flagpole", or "Rant" subcategory. So far the general attitude of this thread is in support of such an area (including leaving it out of New Posts).

I've seen this brought up several times, but never seen anything officially addressed on it.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I did see that thread over there regarding a rather strict-no-care policy regarding vendors. Sending them back their vendor fora.

I think that'll help somewhat.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

In general: I apologize to you all for getting defensive. Just a lot of frustration building lately on the overall topic. Damed if one does and damned if one doesn't. And as always I can't help but think that silent and heavy moderation is sooo much easier... for the moderator.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

We all instinctively think the rant subforum may be a good solution to this problem, but perhaps we may be overlooking something negative about it?
Let's hear why a rant subforum may not be a good idea....

excessive amount of negativity that can snowball into a crowd of /b/tards?? :D

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Yes but is the easy solution really the best?... Ever? ;)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

As long as they keep to their area though: Who cares :D

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Sure-- for the one getting shot at for sticking his neck out.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I am not certain about a rant section. Great in theory, but unless there is moderation to back it up, negativity will just grow around it and spew all over the rest.

I'd rather pull the weed out by the root rather than cutting the branch..

(on my n900, so please be patient if you want a reply.)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Just rename it back to ITT and we can also adopt other tablets into the discussion (Meego, iPad, Android, WebOS). :)

I've also have been on a fair range of forums. It is possible to have productive discussions in an unmoderated forum. But it takes one troll before it all goes to hell. A shame since I loved the community and met my (now-ex/good friends) from there. I feel that way about this forum too. I love(d) the community gathered around the devices, but the way things are going I rather just seperate the forum into two. Productive dicussion and noise.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Can you delete? Deleting is so cool. I can already see how it'll roll :D

Nokia su$##5 j!!! (Deleted)

Where did my Nokia suck#$# thread go!!! (Deleted)

Wtf, you fu45#$%#$! (Deleted)

Ok, that it #@$@# all!! (Deleted)

:D

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

If they're completely ignored and treated like trash then no one would use that area anyway then :D

They want to vent if there are lustener.. Sort of like going to a shrink... Or unloading stuff in a red light district :D

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Maybe because, like Texrat, he is one of the heroes of this site. Whoever doesn't understand that about either of them hasn't been paying attention over the years.

The fact that this site has gone a long ways towards chasing Penguinbait away from here is hugely to its discredit.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Well I was half joking when I requested a asshats forum, a place for rants is not necessarily a bad thing.

However I am not also against RULES. IF there is well documented rules that can be pointed to as to why someone was banned or thread was closed, at least I could put some community support behind this. If its up to moderators and complainers, I think its too subjective. If there is rules that you continue to break at least I can respect that.

I think though, perhaps the rants or complaints threads in one location that again don't show up in active topics is the way to go.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

No problem - we know you better than that. :)

The general topic was sufficiently expressed that it is important to me and I responded, but the topic has been overshadowed. I do think there has been a change in the community operation and a rants subforum will not suffice to address my concerns.

I guess in due time I will have to start a new thread to discuss the thread that raised my concern when it was closed for no good reason that's been stated. (and I will say that the moderator did not respond to my PM)

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=15

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I so wish! This place often feels like a debate site, which it wouldn't be if the dice weren't loaded in favor of Nokia.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Rules of behaviour shift this problem but do not eradicate it, in my experience. It leads to 'lawyering' - people following the letter, but not the spirit of the law, and manipulating those rules in their favour against others.

This sounds trivial, but is a very real problem. Wikipedia has some fine examples.

(on my n900, so please be patient if you want a reply.)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

i agree!
I wonder if it's too soon to campaign for the return to iTT? :D

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Then please respect the thread closures, temp bans and other moderating activities lately. They're NOT being done lightly. There ARE rules being broken, repeatedly. It is NEVER based solely on opinion. If you see severe action, then there's severe history behind it. Every single time.

I can't make that any clearer.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

At least it gives the moderators something to do with the threads. They stay off active topics which many people follow. If you have a complaint, you have someplace to vent it. Mods will still deal with the same asshats but they will stay out of our way. Mods can ban users who create a second complaint thread outside of the correct area.

They can still close threads going terribly bad, but for the most part it should allow for more tolerance in discussions.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

One way or another, for this organization/forum to survive the growth of MeeGo, it WILL need to be redefined to some extent. How that manifests is hard to say right now. But it does need to be discussed, continually, and I believe there are already some threads dedicated to that...

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I can see that both have been big contributors, but when I leave, I leave.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Well, not to add any controversy, but not ALWAYS (see the "Meego in N810" thread)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Texrat, I just don't agree with some of the thread closures, perhaps if they stopped being closed, they would have some place to go instead of keep creating new ones which is even worse. over and over again, If I learned nothing from orangebox, Stop feeding the trolls.

Please understand I like you have been here a long time. I am saying, what your doing, it AINT working.

Nothing personal, but as a community lets come up with some creative ways to deal with this.

Tex I am sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I hope you really understand this was not my intent. It truly was not.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

My personal opinion is that too many people shout in both directions with loud voices and drown out the real issues, be they praise or criticism for Nokia, Maemo (or predecessors) or the N900.

Moderators can't step in without being accused of various things and even if not, they invariably can't fairly monitor everything and are still subject to just plain old getting it wrong - they are only human after all.

My suggestion to improve this situation would be two-fold:

First, a little maturity from everyone! Just because you don't agree with someone it does not mean they are a "troll" or "fanboy". If we could all stop using those wretched terms that'd be a great start. There is also never any call for swearing at people and hurling insults at them - never ever, we all have the capacity to calmly or energetically use our intelligence to discuss in an adult manner.

It should ALWAYS be remembered that it IS easier to say nothing and move on to another thread or website than it is to come on and simply hurl abuse at someone. Clicking "Thanks!" on comments like that is no better either (and still more effort than not doing it!).

Secondly, I think that there is an enormous opportunity for an intelligent community driven moderation system on here. I don't believe for one minute that the people who always call "troll" or "whiner" or whatever are any better than those who come here simply to post inflammatory remarks. We don't however any mechanism to say "No Thanks!" to a post and so it seems you only ever get those ready to wade in on a supposed "troll" who get the thanks. There are so many occasions where I've wanted a negatory option for people who do just that sort of thing - it is not enough to simply thank the posts you do agree with as this skews it, one might not even agree with the OP.

A simple three button system of "Thumbs Up", "Thumbs Down" and "Report This" would not only enable attention to be drawn to individual posts or threads which are abusive, but could serve as a real measure of public feeling both ways and even use some basic stats to fade out or reduce the importance of the thread or post. Continued negative marks could automatically alert moderators to a user.

I know karma is hardly a new concept on forums but it could certainly make this place a nicer community and ease the burden on moderators.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I think now is the moment.

Where else can you find a higher concentration of tablet fans/supporters online? Just about all other forums started off from smartphone/mobile phones origin.

All these 'x vs y' and opinionated posts can be seen as good indication that the forum attracts a wider audience than it is designed to cater in the first place and those people may not have a better 'home' elsewhere. But with the current forum structure, they may be relegated to the rants district. ps: I'm talking not talking about the s-hats, but the polite ones which are not pro-n900. I'm sure you can recall a few.

To wait for MeeGo to gain momentum and till the absolute deadline of our contract here... I think it'll be too late by then...

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Free speech is a good thing.
However, distracting a forum from its original purpose is a bad thing.

Yes!
I was also part of the community which asked you to do so!
And I am one of the people who ask you to continue your good work!

Benny, you are right! I couldn't say it better myself!

Well, destroying them is a good idea.

Still, if some people would prefer not to, I would be happy if all the whining threads would be merged into one.

This is a good idea.

Well, one thing is clear:
When MeeGo is released and MeeGo devices appear, the trolls will go to meego.com instead.

When that time comes, this forum can continue its real purpose: to help people exchange ideas about devices and apps and development for them. Finally, without the junk, useless posts from trolls.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Written rules will, as pointed out, turn into games where people spend their time trying to use the rules to further themselves or their agendas.

My suggestion would be to implement a community vote. People can vote other people down, and in the end have them banned for a day, a week or whatever is fitting.

With enough negative votes a member loses the ability to create threads. With even more negative votes a member loses the ability to comment. A member that's just a day old gets kicked out with a minimal number of votes.

To be allowed to vote, you need to have an account that is old enough, has enough posts or some combination of these. You lose your right to vote if enough people vote you down.

With this in place, the community will be more self-sufficient and not all that dependant on moderators. Moderators can focus on their core activity: moderation.

Details as limit for votes, who gets to vote and the such are parameters for the site owner and moderators to decide on.

The basic assumption here is that there are many more wanted and appreciated contributors than there are trolls and "asshats". Another assumption is that it's possible to trust a community to actually regulate itself. If one, or both, of these are false, my suggested system decays into chaos.

Luckily, maemo.org seems like a place filled with intelligent and reasonable people that actually want to be constructive and this makes be believe that my assumptions are true.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Joorin, this reminds me of what StackOverflow is doing right now.
And it is very good for them.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I have been doing my best to stay on topic, but this complaint IMO is not well thought out or in good faith.

Yes, the thread may not have broken the rules specifically, but keeping in mind the below, I think it was the right decision.

The request there was made, in good faith, by prolific contributors, not only to this project, but to the very work you mention. In addition, MeeGo is not Maemo, regardless of the devices on which it is being put on.

This in mind, would you really be happy for the thread to be reopened, despite the people doing the actual work not participating? Seems a bit stubborn and pointless, IMHO.

(i am on my n900, responses might be slow)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

That sure sounds reasonable in theory... but here's what I expect will play out:

1. MeeGo becomes more popular and activity here falls off

2. Trolls show up at MeeGo

3. Lower tolerance at MeeGo results in stricter moderation

4. Trolls return here en masse

Consider: the reason that trolling seems higher here lately is a result of increased activity from determined troublemakers (note that I exclude those with legitimate complaints!) combined with steadily decreasing activity from contributing members who (hello) are slowly migrating to MeeGo. Also, trolls are disproportionally loud and prolific.

So the percentages shift to the negative and thus the overall tone changes likewise.

My "solution": swift, sure, constant action on obvious trolls. IMO h3llraz0r fits that description. If someone can explain what he has contributed to the positive, I would reconsider that assessment. But to me he's one of those to be quickly and repeatedly banned outright until he finally tires of it and moves on. If that offends purists, oh well. I guess just be glad I'm only a minor moderator here with little power.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Whats meego? :D

I get it - I got it, I know it's good
The rhymes I write - you wish you would I'm never in training - my voice is not straining
People always biting and I'm sick of complaining
So I went into the locker room during classes
Went into your locker and I smashed your glasses

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=317

The thread was not "closed".. it was requested, by the OP, to be closed there as it belonged somewhere else.

So there it is. If you want to participate in it, by all means.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

I have had bad experience a couple of time with "asshat"-type forums. I remember a couple of times I was attacked totally without justification in some long thread. And I really had done nothing to bring about the attack. Then, when I mildly tried to defend myself, we were immediately asked to go to the "pissing" or whatever forum. In other words, for defending myself I was branded as the exact equivalent of the person attacking me for no reason.

So I'm not looking forward to being thrown into an "asshat" area just because I have the wrong opinion.

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

Huh, this was a very good joke! :)

Well, since all the new devices will have MeeGo, the new trolls don't (and shouldn't) know about Maemo and maemo.org. So, by the time point 4 happens, no troll will know what maemo.org is.

The part "noone will know what maemo.org is" scares me as well, but we could advertise it as a welcoming community for application developers and power users.

Yes, this is true.

Agreed.
Please, consider PradaBrada too, please!
I think we can live without his "contributions" to this community.
(Although I'm sure he'll just register another account. But at least without that ridiculous-looking avatar of his.)

Re: Sick of all the closing threads
 

There has even been serious research done in this field on post graduate level.

I have my own years spent as an admin to draw from. To actually trust the community is one of the most effective ways to engage people in it. When you know that what you think counts, you tend to use your, albeit limited, power with care but not hesitate to actually act when you think you should.

Assuming that the people on the other side of the keyboards are mostly intelligent and constructive people goes a long way.