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-   -   Another proof Elop is a trojan horse (https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=74660)

misterc 2011-07-07 05:36
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1046192)
I'm game.

- Will Nokia's condition improve within the next 12 months?
I sincerely doubt it, even if they turned around and started doing everything right, I think it's too late. It's like trying to slow a down-hill run-away car back after it's been gaining months of speed heading downhill and then trying to push it back up to the top.
- Will Elop be credited to sink or safe Nokia within the next 12 months?
Yes, I'm certain he'll be credited with sinking this ruined company--he already has been. I can't see how he can be credit with anything but turning Nokia into his next ruined Kin project.
- Will there be any MeeGo* devices from Nokia past N950/N9?
I'm convinced that there won't be, sadly.
- Will Nokia be bought out by another company? (if yes, by whom)
Probably yes, most likely by Microsoft since it appears to me as if there's a barely discrete effort to undermine the existing and legacy workforce, products and services, stock, brand and morale.
Mark my words. I've been pretty good with predictions so far.

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/daily...%20horse01.jpg
pretty much agree w/ your answers.
one thing that has been irking me since it 1st came up is the idea that m@ke$$h!t would want to go hardware...
considering the company's standards, the only way they can thrive is with software; patching hardware is way too expensive and considering the condition of NOKIA right now, it would be Steve Balmer's Rover adventure, no matter how low the shares get.

thus, my answer to 4-:
DeLL or HP, (PC) hardware companies that have been trying to enter the smart device market for some time now.
or, like the Rover brand, some Chinese manufacturer.

misterc 2011-07-07 06:01
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NokTokDaddy (Post 1046193)
It will not be the last Linux based phone from Nokia, here's one of the first hints:https://twitter.com/#%21/klasstrom/s...05439988662272
did i miss something? :confused:
the N900 is factually still supported, as good as it can be. :|
as long as TMO keeps running & one can download software for the N900, both from TMO & OVI, it's fair to say NOKIA still supports the N900, as much as its predecessors.

so, where is the... N10, N960 or whatever?

OVK 2011-07-07 06:40
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by droitwichgas (Post 1045921)
He starting to look to me like a football club manager brought in to turn a football club round but as the opposite effect and the club Board eventually get so fed up with the poor results he gets fired.
Excellent allegory. I have been thinking the same with a specific case in mind.

Finnish football fans surely remember Stuart Baxter, the former manager for our national team. Just like Elop, he was also a good talker which bought him a lot of extra time as a manager despite the dreadful results. In the end he managed to destroy Finnish national team for years to come.

ericsson 2011-07-07 07:04
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysss (Post 1046159)
- Will Nokia's condition improve within the next 12 months?
- Will Elop be credited to sink or safe Nokia within the next 12 months?
- Will there be any MeeGo* devices from Nokia past N950/N9?
- Will Nokia be bought out by another company? (if yes, by whom)
I really don't care if Nokia makes tons of money for their investors or not. As a consumer, all that matters to me is; do they make devices I want. The reality is that in the last 3-4 years Nokia has been the only company that has made anything worth having. I don't see this changing anytime soon.

daperl 2011-07-07 11:20
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterc (Post 1046202)
one thing that has been irking me since it 1st came up is the idea that m@ke$$h!t would want to go hardware...
considering the company's standards, the only way they can thrive is with software; patching hardware is way too expensive
Oh, you're talking about m@ke$$h!t, at first glance I thought you were talking about Microsoft, because then I was thinking, "If Microsoft didn't want to go hardware, who's been doing all those over-the-net patches to my Xbox 360?" My bad.

deadmalc 2011-07-07 11:30
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Well if nokia release wp7 with the same specs as the n9... i.e. with 2 year old hardware spec as against samsung's omnia 7 release, it will be funny if nothing else.

Hurrian 2011-07-07 11:56
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadmalc (Post 1046340)
Well if nokia release wp7 with the same specs as the n9... i.e. with 2 year old hardware spec as against samsung's omnia 7 release, it will be funny if nothing else.
IIRC, Microsoft DEMANDS MSM/QSD armv7 running at 1GHz minimum - something the OMAP3630 isn't.

Oh, and no swipe UI for WP7 users - messing with UI experience is definitely off-limits, no matter how many times you get in bed with MS.
Now only, if the Windows team enforced the "no messing with UX" policy from WP7. Should get rid of a lot of crappily-designed apps.

umo120 2011-07-07 13:09
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NokTokDaddy (Post 1046009)
Yes - all the opinions of the experts concur; WP Metro UI is an attractive and engaging UI and Mango will deliver enough functionality for the masses. MS do appear to have got it right. Past performance is no indicator of future potential.
That's interesting because in case of Symbian/Maemo/Meego I keep hearing the exact opposite reasoning, and this is even in the face of N9, which proves it has not only undefined future potential.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NokTokDaddy (Post 1046009)
Nokia Maps is a huge asset to Windows Phone. Offline maps with 3D effect, voice guidance, good routing (generally) and full auto-rerouting. Nokia Maps integrates with other services on the device and is free.

I was initially surprised at Nokia's decision to contribute Maps to the OS, thus allowing other Mfrs to take advantage of a unique Nokia feature, but how much is 'Maps by Nokia' on every WP device by every manufacturer worth in marketing $'s?

...
Which brings us back to the main question. What exactly Nokia gets from this huge transfer to MS (and it's not only OviMaps) besides non-exclusive right (or obligation?) to purchase OS that no customer is actually buying, but it has potential experts say?

ericsson 2011-07-07 15:03
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by umo120 (Post 1046379)
That's interesting because in case of Symbian/Maemo/Meego I keep hearing the exact opposite reasoning, and this is even in the face of N9, which proves it has not only undefined future potential.


Which brings us back to the main question. What exactly Nokia gets from this huge transfer to MS (and it's not only OviMaps) besides non-exclusive right (or obligation?) to purchase OS that no customer is actually buying, but it has potential experts say?
Why so paranoid? Google "gives away" an entire OS for "free", maps, mail and all kinds of online services. Nokia has for several years now worked on developing an OS (several in fact) that is open source and free. So suddenly letting MS use Ovi Maps is the end of the world as we know it? I mean, please - you are not thinking straight, not at all. The only value of Ovi Maps is people using it, more users means more money for Nokia. Ovi Maps is hell of a lot better than anything Google has managed to cook together, so WP using Ovi Maps is a net gain for both Nokia and MS, but mostly for Nokia.

Nokia and MS cannot be understood without understanding the concept of ecosystem.

patlak 2011-07-07 15:16
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046436)
Why so paranoid? Google "gives away" an entire OS for "free", maps, mail and all kinds of online services. Nokia has for several years now worked on developing an OS (several in fact) that is open source and free. So suddenly letting MS use Ovi Maps is the end of the world as we know it? I mean, please - you are not thinking straight, not at all. The only value of Ovi Maps is people using it, more users means more money for Nokia. Ovi Maps is hell of a lot better than anything Google has managed to cook together, so WP using Ovi Maps is a net gain for both Nokia and MS, but mostly for Nokia.

Nokia and MS cannot be understood without understanding the concept of ecosystem.
It's not a gain for Nokia. Having Ovi Maps on other WP7 devices is a gain for MS and other manufacturers. What will force an HTC fan to buy a Nokia WP7 when he will ge the wanted service on an HTC phone with a larger screen for instance? Nokia will lose phone sales while others will gain. Nokia won't be able to differentiate its products with no free lifetime Ovi Maps exclusivity.

ericsson 2011-07-07 15:22
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by patlak (Post 1046439)
It's not a gain for Nokia. Having Ovi Maps on other WP7 devices is a gain for MS and other manufacturers. What will force an HTC fan to buy a Nokia WP7 when he will ge the wanted service on an HTC phone with a larger screen for instance? Nokia will lose phone sales while others will gain. Nokia won't be able to differentiate its products with no free lifetime Ovi Maps exclusivity.
I have no clue to what you are trying to say. What has screen size to do with the inherent value of ovi maps for nokia?

shallimus 2011-07-07 15:31
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by patlak (Post 1046439)
It's not a gain for Nokia. Having Ovi Maps on other WP7 devices is a gain for MS and other manufacturers. What will force an HTC fan to buy a Nokia WP7 when he will ge the wanted service on an HTC phone with a larger screen for instance? Nokia will lose phone sales while others will gain. Nokia won't be able to differentiate its products with no free lifetime Ovi Maps exclusivity.
Agree. Google turns the stuff they give away into one of the biggest advertising revenue streams on the planet. Past the Golden Pick-up-the-soap one-time payment from MSFT to Nokia, what was Nokia's plan to make money from all this again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046442)
I have no clue to what you are trying to say. What has screen size to do with the inherent value of ovi maps for nokia?
To spell it out: two phones have identical Ovi map services. One phone is from Nokia. One is from HTC, and has a bigger screen, which acts as the tie-breaker in a purchasing decision in favour of the HTC Phone. Nokia loses a sale.

In conclusion:
  1. give away the cool stuff which previously allowed you to differentiate your products from those of your competitors
  2. ???
  3. Profit!

TheLongshot 2011-07-07 16:10
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NokTokDaddy (Post 1046033)
In the meantime Symbian is far from dead: My N8 is just as usable and relevant as my N900 or any other device:
Usable? Certainly. Relevant? I agree that both are equally irrelevant.

Quote:
We must understand that the problem with getting Windows Phone for Nokia going was going to be one of slowing the all-but implacable momentum of the giant that is Symbian. As the Elder OS, Symbian might crush the younger and currently less-capable Windows Phone. Symbian is huge, a monster with a life and trajectory of its own - that is why Elop has done all he can to be seen to 'kill' Symbian.

As if he could!
I think you underestimate how his actions affected Symbian. Certainly you can see it in the stock price: most think Symbian is dead and that there is little to look forward to with Nokia. Fact is Elop royally ****ed up in that he made such an announcement without having another product to fill the gap. A few months later and we still don't really know when Nokia will release their first Windows Phone. Meanwhile, the N9 is coming out and Elop has done a lot to undercut that. Who the hell thinks that's a smart way to run a business?

Quote:
Nokia will be far more than a manufacturer of Windows Phone devices - that was the deal on offer from Google if they adopted Android. Nokia will work with Microsoft and other participant manufacturers to build and shape Windows Phone.
Which, again, benefits Microsoft more than it does Nokia.

Quote:
Your last comment is very true: Nokia will not be the same ever again. It has been toppled by fast-growing competition since 2007 and came close to being unrecoverable.

But this is a dynamic and unpredictable industry; who could've predicted just four years ago the rise of the Android, the growth of Samsung, HTC, Huwawei and ZTE, the fall of Sony-Ericson, Motorola and, of course, Nokia.
Given the new direction, they might as well be unrecoverable for the purposes of this forum. We were drawn to the power of Maemo and the promise of its potential. Elop seems to be doing everything possible to kill that dream, with nothing to replace it. It certainly won't be Windows Phone.

Speaking as a Nokia stockholder, I'm also disappointed in that aspect, because I'm wondering when Nokia is going to come out with a product that they are going to be fully behind. Certainly not for the rest of this year.

umo120 2011-07-07 16:11
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046436)
Why so paranoid? Google "gives away" an entire OS for "free", maps, mail and all kinds of online services. Nokia has for several years now worked on developing an OS (several in fact) that is open source and free. So suddenly letting MS use Ovi Maps is the end of the world as we know it? I mean, please - you are not thinking straight, not at all. The only value of Ovi Maps is people using it, more users means more money for Nokia. Ovi Maps is hell of a lot better than anything Google has managed to cook together, so WP using Ovi Maps is a net gain for both Nokia and MS, but mostly for Nokia.
Uh, I didn't said it is the end of world, I merely asked what Nokia gets in return. I can't see how it can have more users with MS, because WP7 has no users to speak of and even if it gains some in 2012, it will be only because of Nokia brand and it's loyal customers. Besides, last time I checked Nokia isn't advertising company so I don't see the business case of giving away products google/tv/newspaper style. But sure, Mr. Elop wants to differentiate and this is the easiest way to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046436)
Nokia and MS cannot be understood without understanding the concept of ecosystem.
Funny you are bringing this ecosystem thing, because again what is MS adding to MS/Nokia ecosystem? I see no users, no developers, no apps, no manufactures, no carriers support, no maps, no store, ... Everything is either directly from Nokia or is in the "future potential" category that mainly depends Nokia's ability to leverage WP7 with its brand to bring its customers and developers.

Dave999 2011-07-07 16:30
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
MS have to collect hundreds of millions from all vendors for selling andorid. What if they used that as a trade off to promote and let the vendors use windows instead of, or togheter with andorid.

At the same time use nokia to push hard in all markets. That would give them some major market shares in a second :D

patlak 2011-07-07 16:36
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave999 (Post 1046480)
MS have to collect hundreds of millions from all vendors for selling andorid. What if they used that as a trade off to promote and let the vendors use windows instead of, or togheter with andorid.

At the same time use nokia to push hard in all markets. That would give them some major market shares in a second :D
The royalties collected are used for the one time payment to Nokia. MS bought Nokia with pocket money, REALLY!!!

Dave999 2011-07-07 16:50
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
HTC paid, and samsung are up next...Would be nice if they kicked out android for Win7 :D. To bad its not gonna happen

ericsson 2011-07-07 16:51
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shallimus (Post 1046446)
Agree. Google turns the stuff they give away into one of the biggest advertising revenue streams on the planet. Past the Golden Pick-up-the-soap one-time payment from MSFT to Nokia, what was Nokia's plan to make money from all this again?


To spell it out: two phones have identical Ovi map services. One phone is from Nokia. One is from HTC, and has a bigger screen, which acts as the tie-breaker in a purchasing decision in favour of the HTC Phone. Nokia loses a sale.

In conclusion:
  1. give away the cool stuff which previously allowed you to differentiate your products from those of your competitors
  2. ???
  3. Profit!
So what you are saying is that bigger screen always win :D Seriously, that is exactly what you are saying. So Nokia should protect their Ovi Map in case some other manufacturer releases a device with a larger screen.

As I said, you simply cannot understand this except on the basis of ecosystem. It is the services that makes money, the devices are only platforms for the services. Ovi Map = Nokia Service. I cannot think of a better way to extract $ from your competitors than putting your high valued service on his device.

ericsson 2011-07-07 17:21
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by umo120 (Post 1046471)
Uh, I didn't said it is the end of world, I merely asked what Nokia gets in return. I can't see how it can have more users with MS, because WP7 has no users to speak of and even if it gains some in 2012, it will be only because of Nokia brand and it's loyal customers. Besides, last time I checked Nokia isn't advertising company so I don't see the business case of giving away products google/tv/newspaper style. But sure, Mr. Elop wants to differentiate and this is the easiest way to do it.


Funny you are bringing this ecosystem thing, because again what is MS adding to MS/Nokia ecosystem? I see no users, no developers, no apps, no manufactures, no carriers support, no maps, no store, ... Everything is either directly from Nokia or is in the "future potential" category that mainly depends Nokia's ability to leverage WP7 with its brand to bring its customers and developers.
You are worse than Mr Me and I Clown danramos. Who cares what YOU see? Of course every single thing regarding Nokia is in future potential right now. Have the Nokia stock values completely passed you by? WP already have more than 20 thousand apps, and is increasing by the minute. MS has a modern fully functional OS and ecosystem. More people use hotmail than gmail, much more. They have X-box with direct integration to the OS. And the only way to connect your device with a PC is by using MS Windows.

Most people have no idea who Elop is, and they couldn't care less. They see a cool looking device with Nokia and Microsoft logo being advertised with all they ever need pre-installed and on top of that, 30k apps (rapidly growing) to download. Sure an HTC or LG or Samsung will have similar devices, but not similar build quality, similar style and similar looks, similar camera quality, similar reception quality, similar sound quality, but most of all, nowhere near the out of the box complete features. And if they do, it will be no big deal, they will run on Nokia-MS ecosystem.

patlak 2011-07-07 17:39
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046494)
So what you are saying is that bigger screen always win :D Seriously, that is exactly what you are saying. So Nokia should protect their Ovi Map in case some other manufacturer releases a device with a larger screen.

As I said, you simply cannot understand this except on the basis of ecosystem. It is the services that makes money, the devices are only platforms for the services. Ovi Map = Nokia Service. I cannot think of a better way to extract $ from your competitors than putting your high valued service on his device.
You either really don't get it, or are just an outrageously stubborn person. The larger screen was just an example. Nokia may offer a phone with a 4 inch screen while HTC, Samsung may offer with 4.3, 4.5 and 4.7 inch screens. That for someone could be the deciding factor. I am not saying the bigger screen might be better, but if somebody chose it over the 4 inch Nokia, it's a lost sale for Nokia. Additionally, Samsung may also be the first with a 20 megapixel camera, 3gb ram, HTC may be the first dual core WP7, etc which all matter to Average JOE. If all of those phones offer Ovi Maps, who do you think will gain? Software wise, you get the service that would have forced you earlier to buy a Symbian phone, but now they all have it. Nokia is at a loss. Offering that service was the one thing to differentiate themselves from other manufacturers (lifetime free offline and online voice guided navigation).

droitwichgas 2011-07-07 17:43
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046500)
You are worse than Mr Me and I Clown danramos. Who cares what YOU see? Of course every single thing regarding Nokia is in future potential right now. Have the Nokia stock values completely passed you by? WP already have more than 20 thousand apps, and is increasing by the minute. MS has a modern fully functional OS and ecosystem. More people use hotmail than gmail, much more. They have X-box with direct integration to the OS. And the only way to connect your device with a PC is by using MS Windows.

Most people have no idea who Elop is, and they couldn't care less. They see a cool looking device with Nokia and Microsoft logo being advertised with all they ever need pre-installed and on top of that, 30k apps (rapidly growing) to download. Sure an HTC or LG or Samsung will have similar devices, but not similar build quality, similar style and similar looks, similar camera quality, similar reception quality, similar sound quality, but most of all, nowhere near the out of the box complete features. And if they do, it will be no big deal, they will run on Nokia-MS ecosystem.
These people can already see "cool looking" devices from HTC & LG running WP7 but they are still decideing to by the Android equivalent.

Why just because it is a Nokia device will these people suddenly decide to start buying a WP7 device, i can't see Nokia is any "cooler" than HTC to most users?

patlak 2011-07-07 17:52
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046500)
You are worse than Mr Me and I Clown danramos. Who cares what YOU see? Of course every single thing regarding Nokia is in future potential right now. Have the Nokia stock values completely passed you by? WP already have more than 20 thousand apps, and is increasing by the minute. MS has a modern fully functional OS and ecosystem. More people use hotmail than gmail, much more. They have X-box with direct integration to the OS. And the only way to connect your device with a PC is by using MS Windows.

Most people have no idea who Elop is, and they couldn't care less. They see a cool looking device with Nokia and Microsoft logo being advertised with all they ever need pre-installed and on top of that, 30k apps (rapidly growing) to download. Sure an HTC or LG or Samsung will have similar devices, but not similar build quality, similar style and similar looks, similar camera quality, similar reception quality, similar sound quality, but most of all, nowhere near the out of the box complete features. And if they do, it will be no big deal, they will run on Nokia-MS ecosystem.
MS seems to be up your butt so deeply that you missed out completely on Nokia and their planned ecosystem. What Nokia had was pure win and it was all proprietary. MeeGo + Qt + Symbian + S40 + Ovi Store. It's Nokia's management that failed to deliver, it was all there. Now with WP7, you have to wait another half a year to receive a device from them. If you want WP7 so badly, buy it today, you'll get a taste of Nokia's future experience today and could have even experienced it a year ago. With no more Ovi Maps exclusivity, Nokia's devices will be no different from HTC. HTC are improving camera wise, have amazing build quality and offer more choice to the consumer.

danramos 2011-07-07 17:53
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046494)
So what you are saying is that bigger screen always win :D Seriously, that is exactly what you are saying. So Nokia should protect their Ovi Map in case some other manufacturer releases a device with a larger screen.

As I said, you simply cannot understand this except on the basis of ecosystem. It is the services that makes money, the devices are only platforms for the services. Ovi Map = Nokia Service. I cannot think of a better way to extract $ from your competitors than putting your high valued service on his device.
If I am permitted to summarize what he's trying to say: "All things being equal with regards to services, advantage goes to the device with more or better features. Nokia has opted for the poorer hardware, even while trying to provide the same features that their competition already offers for free."

Quote:
Originally Posted by patlak (Post 1046512)
You either really don't get it, or are just an outrageously stubborn person. The larger screen was just an example. Nokia may offer a phone with a 4 inch screen while HTC, Samsung may offer with 4.3, 4.5 and 4.7 inch screens. That for someone could be the deciding factor. I am not saying the bigger screen might be better, but if somebody chose it over the 4 inch Nokia, it's a lost sale for Nokia. Additionally, Samsung may also be the first with a 20 megapixel camera, 3gb ram, HTC may be the first dual core WP7, etc which all matter to Average JOE. If all of those phones offer Ovi Maps, who do you think will gain? Software wise, you get the service that would have forced you earlier to buy a Symbian phone, but now they all have it. Nokia is at a loss. Offering that service was the one thing to differentiate themselves from other manufacturers (lifetime free offline and online voice guided navigation).
Considering he's relegated to personal attacks in lieu of an actual debate and intelligent conversation, I would suggest that perhaps he's actually BEING the troll he wishes to stigmatize others with opposing viewpoints to be. I suggest just letting it go and let your statements speak for themselves to the generally more intelligent readers. I know how hard it is to hold back and stop feeding such trolls. :)

cjp 2011-07-07 18:16
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
@danramos: How come you always have the energy to read through these popcorn threads and make replies that actually make sense and take into account whats been said? :D Props to you, man.Keep up the good work -b

mikecomputing 2011-07-07 18:44
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046500)
You are worse than Mr Me and I Clown danramos. Who cares what YOU see? Of course every single thing regarding Nokia is in future potential right now. Have the Nokia stock values completely passed you by? WP already have more than 20 thousand apps, and is increasing by the minute. MS has a modern fully functional OS and ecosystem. More people use hotmail than gmail, much more. They have X-box with direct integration to the OS. And the only way to connect your device with a PC is by using MS Windows.

Most people have no idea who Elop is, and they couldn't care less. They see a cool looking device with Nokia and Microsoft logo being advertised with all they ever need pre-installed and on top of that, 30k apps (rapidly growing) to download. Sure an HTC or LG or Samsung will have similar devices, but not similar build quality, similar style and similar looks, similar camera quality, similar reception quality, similar sound quality, but most of all, nowhere near the out of the box complete features. And if they do, it will be no big deal, they will run on Nokia-MS ecosystem.
20 000 apps OMG!!!! I must get WP then so I can install all those apps!!

gerbick 2011-07-07 19:10
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046500)
You are worse than Mr Me and I Clown danramos. Who cares what YOU see?
There's more than one type of customer out there. People that love/bought the N900 were in a serious minority. Otherwise, things would not have been like they are presently.

No Elop at Nokia. No announcements from Samsung stating that they've sold 3 million Samsung Galaxy S II's in 55 (or less) days. No Microsoft deal with Nokia. Those are all connected... if the N900 or anything Maemo was remotely as popular as you lot think it was, then these discussions would not have happened.

So yeah... what danramos sees is what most other consumers that aren't blinded by fanaticism and/or ignorant to better options - the middle of this ignorant storm of consumerism is still enough room for people to know, have used, and can precisely critique Maemo for what it is, what it could have been, what it didn't accomplish.

I say that as a Maemo fan - still think Diablo was the first Maemo that made me a serious fan, although I had a 770 before it - and I can state easily that what you don't see... Maemo for all of its innovations was really a failure for Nokia.

Worse... it opened the door for yet another failure in the form of WP7 to waltz in and say "Well... we have a marketplace for music, videos, XBOX 360 and an official Twitter app and you do not..." and have that be a compelling argument against Maemo.

Maemo had years to establish itself as something prominent. Nokia floundered. Nokia faltered. Nokia restarted multiple times. And thusly, Nokia allowed the competition to redefine something they should have set the definition for.

If you cannot see that, then welcome to the part of the crowd where fanaticism disallows that.

Quote:
Of course every single thing regarding Nokia is in future potential right now.
It's been like that since 2005. Time for potential to be applied. Or replaced. Sadly, it's been replaced with a shittier version of "potential" (read: WP7). Blame OPK. Elop is just making it worse - the decline started in 2007.

Quote:
Have the Nokia stock values completely passed you by?
That's part of the whole "potential" part. Have you seen Microsoft's stock value? They've also dropped to something less than their glory days 11 years ago. Blame Ballmer. Bill Gates had that company at record levels.

Quote:
WP already have more than 20 thousand apps, and is increasing by the minute. MS has a modern fully functional OS and ecosystem.
20k apps... ok. I have an HTC HD7S - and let me tell you. I don't have more than 20 apps on my phone. Not because I'm a lame user, I have 77 on my Android device(s). I have like 80 on my iOS device(s). And yet, I'm missing certain key apps on WP7 at the moment.

It's functional - so is Maemo. It's modern - so is Maemo. It has an ecosystem - ok, Maemo has sorta one... Ovi is half-baked for Maemo.

Quote:
More people use hotmail than gmail, much more.
No arguments there. Yahoo is #2 - and Nokia had a contract with Yahoo for their mail.

Quote:
Most people have no idea who Elop is, and they couldn't care less. They see a cool looking device with Nokia and Microsoft logo being advertised with all they ever need pre-installed and on top of that, 30k apps (rapidly growing) to download. Sure an HTC or LG or Samsung will have similar devices, but not similar build quality, similar style and similar looks, similar camera quality, similar reception quality, similar sound quality, but most of all, nowhere near the out of the box complete features. And if they do, it will be no big deal, they will run on Nokia-MS ecosystem.
Not knowing who Elop is doesn't excuse the fact that once you know who he is... you see the missteps by this current administration. But the problem is... most people are really unwilling to look back at OPK who let his campaigns - marketing, networking and device/ecosystem campaigns - go unsettled and largely unknown. Nobody knew what Nokia was doing. Still don't...

And to excuse it as "part of Nokia's culture" is straight dumb. Google has shown that if you engage your audiences, things like the Google IO conference can get people that don't know who you are, start to follow you, pay attention to what you say and be interested in what you do. Apple... Steve Jobs gets up there, sells the ever-living **** out of anything iOS. People eat it up... but guess what?

Nokia needs that too. Silence sells nothing. Wide open systems sell to people that think that it's important. I'm quite sure there's a percentage of the 1% of the desktop types care about that.

And it's famously less than the people that buy Android, Symbian, iOS and even WP7 - yep, it sold more than the last Maemo device. Sad, huh?

Regardless... being able to criticize yet can't take criticism for what you evangelize is unrealistic and incredibly biased.

Points at thread.

danramos 2011-07-07 19:24
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Actually, who still uses Hotmail and Yahoo mail besides spammers and fake accounts for spammers to spam? I have to admit that I haven't seen a single person tell me they use Hotmail or Yahoo mail in YEARS. I think I still see @aol.com addresses more often, and even those are a dwindling breed.

By the by, my gratitude to cjp, gerbick and many others with whom I've had many civil and intelligent discussions over the years and for the thanks and compliments. gerbick elaborated a lot of what I've been saying all along. Well said!

gerbick 2011-07-07 19:27
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danramos (Post 1046565)
Actually, who still uses Hotmail and Yahoo mail besides spammers and fake accounts for spammers to spam? I have to admit that I haven't seen a single tell me they use Hotmail or Yahoo mail in YEARS. I think I still see @aol.com addresses more often, and even those are a dwindling breed.
I keep a @live.com account - give it out to people I don't like. And I use it for my WP7 phone.

umo120 2011-07-07 19:37
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046500)
You are worse than Mr Me and I Clown danramos. Who cares what YOU see? Of course every single thing regarding Nokia is in future potential right now. Have the Nokia stock values completely passed you by? WP already have more than 20 thousand apps, and is increasing by the minute. MS has a modern fully functional OS and ecosystem. More people use hotmail than gmail, much more. They have X-box with direct integration to the OS. And the only way to connect your device with a PC is by using MS Windows.
Yeah, so miraculously forcing hotmail users into WP phones, that is The Big Secret Strategy? It worked very well so far, current sales and user penetration of WP7 is the definite proof.

X-box integration is little bit less absurd idea, except that I wouldn't include it in the future potential category, it's more like wishful thinking. Maybe somebody someday will create killer app that takes advantage of unique MS xbox integration, but there isn't event hint of how this should look.

Right now Ovi has double of that, and because of the number of users on MS store, there are no quality developers, so most of this rapid growth is crap just to pump up numbers.

Sorry, I don't know what advantage is for Nokia to force it's customers into using MS Windows and how it enhances The Ecosystem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsson (Post 1046500)
Most people have no idea who Elop is, and they couldn't care less. They see a cool looking device with Nokia and Microsoft logo being advertised with all they ever need pre-installed and on top of that, 30k apps (rapidly growing) to download. Sure an HTC or LG or Samsung will have similar devices, but not similar build quality, similar style and similar looks, similar camera quality, similar reception quality, similar sound quality, but most of all, nowhere near the out of the box complete features. And if they do, it will be no big deal, they will run on Nokia-MS ecosystem.
Well, this isn't simple even if you have cool phone, fully functional modern OS with ecosystem and everything people need preinstaled, but as MS doesn't have any of that, it is just "what could be if" theorizing. BTW, besides ecosystem, Elop is also outsourcing design and manufacturing of new phone, so Nokia top HW and build quality is most probably thing of the past.

danramos 2011-07-07 19:38
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1046568)
I keep a @live.com account - give it out to people I don't like. And I use it for my WP7 phone.
That sounds about right. Yup! I have a hotmail account that I'd made over a decade ago, before the Microsoft take-over and it remains there as my spam-well, just filling up with garbage after I got tired of dealing with the decaying, rotting state that Microsoft left it in.

Drekkie 2011-07-07 19:47
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1046568)
I keep a @live.com account - give it out to people I don't like.
same and I use it for web purchases, but really have had it for so long that I can't be bothered to sort out what I want to migrate from it and what is junk.

I'm pleased whenever we are reminded that the last several years of Nokia mismanagement have led to the current state of affairs, despite the damage I believe Elop has done. It seems people have short memories, but I haven't heard nearly as many as "Elopalypse"-equivalents for the previous CEO/management (or maybe I just missed that era since I only joined when N900 was released).

Maybe we could start a list of those too.

danramos 2011-07-07 20:04
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drekkie (Post 1046584)
same and I use it for web purchases, but really have had it for so long that I can't be bothered to sort out what I want to migrate from it and what is junk.

I'm pleased whenever we are reminded that the last several years of Nokia mismanagement have led to the current state of affairs, despite the damage I believe Elop has done. It seems people have short memories, but I haven't heard nearly as many as "Elopalypse"-equivalents for the previous CEO/management (or maybe I just missed that era since I only joined when N900 was released).

Maybe we could start a list of those too.
I think that the impression we all had under OPK was that he was incompetent, but not that he seemed intentionally crippling the company.
Case in point, this thread at the time:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=51507

It would appear to me that OPK made people worry, but Elop's decisions have elicited genuine dread.

BigBadGuber! 2011-07-07 20:23
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
The paranoia of this thread is infectious. Elop is far from Trojan horse. He is in the business of making money and he will do it. I bought shares at 5.79, and they are over 6.4 now with my betting that after N9 and WP7 N9 like looking devices are released, the shares will hit 10 and more in subsequent years.

I have never seen such a pathetic group of depressed, negative and utterly paranoid individuals except for ericsson who seems to be the only one to comprehend what is going on. Lighten up guys, the good times for NOKIA are coming, and Elop is there to help. The Meego apologists need to understand that you got to win at the market and previous structure was not doing it, hence Elop and changes. You are behaving like a typical group of dead wood that needs to move on with the program or get fired for obstruction.

I have some freeby Prozac from drug companies, will be happy to email to whoever needs it here.

Drekkie 2011-07-07 20:38
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 1046610)
The paranoia of this thread is infectious. Elop is far from Trojan horse. He is in the business of making money and he will do it. I bought shares at 5.79, and they are over 6.4 now with my betting that after N9 and WP7 N9 like looking devices are released, the shares will hit 10 and more in subsequent years.

I have never seen such a pathetic group of depressed, negative and utterly paranoid individuals except for ericsson who seems to be the only one to comprehend what is going on. Lighten up guys, the good times for NOKIA are coming, and Elop is there to help. The Meego apologists need to understand that you got to win at the market and previous structure was not doing it, hence Elop and changes. You are behaving like a typical group of dead wood that needs to move on with the program or get fired for obstruction.

I have some freeby Prozac from drug companies, will be happy to email to whoever needs it here.

I look forward to monitoring your other stock post for updates and equivalent zeal over time.

droitwichgas 2011-07-07 20:38
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 1046610)
The paranoia of this thread is infectious. Elop is far from Trojan horse. He is in the business of making money and he will do it. I bought shares at 5.79, and they are over 6.4 now with my betting that after N9 and WP7 N9 like looking devices are released, the shares will hit 10 and more in subsequent years.

I have never seen such a pathetic group of depressed, negative and utterly paranoid individuals except for ericsson who seems to be the only one to comprehend what is going on. Lighten up guys, the good times for NOKIA are coming, and Elop is there to help. The Meego apologists need to understand that you got to win at the market and previous structure was not doing it, hence Elop and changes. You are behaving like a typical group of dead wood that needs to move on with the program or get fired for obstruction.

I have some freeby Prozac from drug companies, will be happy to email to whoever needs it here.
Sounds to me like you have taken one to many of your prozac if you think the share price will hit 10 0n the back of a WP7 phone which smartphone users do not seem interested in purchasing.

fahadj2003 2011-07-07 20:39
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
his wife has norton antivirus installed in her to prevent intrusions.
no wonder why he seems so unhappy
*i have no idea what the link says but i still felt like sharing this*

ericsson 2011-07-07 20:39
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerbick (Post 1046553)
There's more than one type of customer out there. People that love/bought the N900 were in a serious minority. Otherwise, things would not have been like they are presently.

No Elop at Nokia. No announcements from Samsung stating that they've sold 3 million Samsung Galaxy S II's in 55 (or less) days. No Microsoft deal with Nokia. Those are all connected... if the N900 or anything Maemo was remotely as popular as you lot think it was, then these discussions would not have happened.

So yeah... what danramos sees is what most other consumers that aren't blinded by fanaticism and/or ignorant to better options - the middle of this ignorant storm of consumerism is still enough room for people to know, have used, and can precisely critique Maemo for what it is, what it could have been, what it didn't accomplish.

I say that as a Maemo fan - still think Diablo was the first Maemo that made me a serious fan, although I had a 770 before it - and I can state easily that what you don't see... Maemo for all of its innovations was really a failure for Nokia.

Worse... it opened the door for yet another failure in the form of WP7 to waltz in and say "Well... we have a marketplace for music, videos, XBOX 360 and an official Twitter app and you do not..." and have that be a compelling argument against Maemo.

Maemo had years to establish itself as something prominent. Nokia floundered. Nokia faltered. Nokia restarted multiple times. And thusly, Nokia allowed the competition to redefine something they should have set the definition for.

If you cannot see that, then welcome to the part of the crowd where fanaticism disallows that.



It's been like that since 2005. Time for potential to be applied. Or replaced. Sadly, it's been replaced with a shittier version of "potential" (read: WP7). Blame OPK. Elop is just making it worse - the decline started in 2007.



That's part of the whole "potential" part. Have you seen Microsoft's stock value? They've also dropped to something less than their glory days 11 years ago. Blame Ballmer. Bill Gates had that company at record levels.



20k apps... ok. I have an HTC HD7S - and let me tell you. I don't have more than 20 apps on my phone. Not because I'm a lame user, I have 77 on my Android device(s). I have like 80 on my iOS device(s). And yet, I'm missing certain key apps on WP7 at the moment.

It's functional - so is Maemo. It's modern - so is Maemo. It has an ecosystem - ok, Maemo has sorta one... Ovi is half-baked for Maemo.



No arguments there. Yahoo is #2 - and Nokia had a contract with Yahoo for their mail.



Not knowing who Elop is doesn't excuse the fact that once you know who he is... you see the missteps by this current administration. But the problem is... most people are really unwilling to look back at OPK who let his campaigns - marketing, networking and device/ecosystem campaigns - go unsettled and largely unknown. Nobody knew what Nokia was doing. Still don't...

And to excuse it as "part of Nokia's culture" is straight dumb. Google has shown that if you engage your audiences, things like the Google IO conference can get people that don't know who you are, start to follow you, pay attention to what you say and be interested in what you do. Apple... Steve Jobs gets up there, sells the ever-living **** out of anything iOS. People eat it up... but guess what?

Nokia needs that too. Silence sells nothing. Wide open systems sell to people that think that it's important. I'm quite sure there's a percentage of the 1% of the desktop types care about that.

And it's famously less than the people that buy Android, Symbian, iOS and even WP7 - yep, it sold more than the last Maemo device. Sad, huh?

Regardless... being able to criticize yet can't take criticism for what you evangelize is unrealistic and incredibly biased.

Points at thread.
Usually you are quite reasonable, but this is all just a load of something smelly. OK, time for some facts:

* In general people don't care about OS
* International business != local business
* Every business is a roller coaster, it goes up and down
* Nokia is in it for the long run
* Nokia plays on lots of horses and it's the sum that counts
* Nokia did not loose several opportunities in the recent past, but in hindsight it looks like they did.
* Nokia is not alone in the mobile business and cannot win all battles, also they have no control over innovations and disruption done by others.
* No one can control a disruption and the results of it. It is a super high risk venture that no one does unless they have no other options available, or is completely new in the industry. It is certainly not something a market leader will enter into.
* And finally - MS-Nokia cooperation is about the ecosystem.

Apple had nothing to lose, but a whole world to win. Google had nothing to lose, but a whole world to win. Nokia had a whole world to loose and nothing to win. Add this to the fact that a disruption is a completely uncontrollable event once it starts rolling, only then can you start understanding what is going on and what Nokia is doing now.

Sometimes in business you have to start from point zero. To get there might kill you, but if you don't try you are facing certain death. In business this means tear everything down, get rid of all the parts that is not essential to stay alive, keep and strengthen the parts that can be used in the future, restructure and build new alliances and new teams. Only then are you in position to head into the new and disrupted reality.

By God, this is exactly what Elop is doing. One may even argue that he is not doing enough of it, but this is impossible to know unless we have all the fact that Elop has. But know this, Nokia has done this several times in the past. If anyone knows how to do this, it is Nokia. Elop is not alone in this, he is just one person in a large team. Still, they may fail, but that's business.

And you are talking about the size of the screen on HTC devices, evil Microsoft, no-good WP, stupid Elop, evil Elop, trojan horse Elop. Please.

Ahonen is cool because he is funny. But he is a clown, a stand up comedian in the mobile industry.

umo120 2011-07-07 20:41
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBadGuber! (Post 1046610)
I bought shares at 5.79, and they are over 6.4 now with my betting that after N9 and WP7 N9 like looking devices are released, the shares will hit 10 and more in subsequent years.
I would suggest to wait for more than two weeks of market data before doing projections into next year.

BigBadGuber! 2011-07-07 20:53
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Are you another pre-ELOP NOKIA apologist?

BigBadGuber! 2011-07-07 20:56
Re: Another proof Elop is a trojan horse
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by droitwichgas (Post 1046622)
Sounds to me like you have taken one to many of your prozac if you think the share price will hit 10 0n the back of a WP7 phone which smartphone users do not seem interested in purchasing.
its a combo that will win. clearly too advanced for you to comprehend


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