Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Which is quite not precise, as "within 6 months" could also mean announcing new election tomorrow, to be held in month from announcement.

In my understanding, chair is *announcing* election date, as set by whole Council (+ chair responsibility is - as per being secretary - ensuring, that election will go smoothly). I think it's good idea to ask "Founding Fathers" about what they had in mind, while writing this "within 6 months", and write it more precisely on wiki - current form leaves too much chances of excluding interpretations.

Which I'll gladly do.
---

As for Council running in parallel with Board of Directors, personally, I don't see reason for it, and I can't recall such option being proposed.

AFAIK, three options were discussed:

1. Election for new Board ASAP and disbanding Council just after (initial proposition of SD69, IIRC).
2. Auto-transfer - Council becomes first Board (because, current Councilors will do things related to forming entity = will act as boards anyway), with keeping next votes as scheduled (= we would vote in normal time, but for Board, instead of Council - no extending or shortening current Council cadence). (My idea)
3. Auto transfer with extending cadence of Council/Board, to one matching Board cadence (proposed by Woody, IIRC).

As expressed in my comment @ mailing list, I think option 2 is most sensible, while I dislike option 3 much, as one that could create bad blood (via extending cadence) and accusations of hijacking power.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

What if a council member feels that he is not capable or does not have public support to run his duties; is he permitted to step down in honor?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

There's nothing preventing a serving council member from stepping down, with honor or without.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

It is very precise. That is exactly what it means. It's it the Chair's duty to ensure an election happens not later than 6 months from the date of the election of the council.

This is why having a chair is important, and although it's usually been +/- a week or so, some of the delays last time were caused by not having a chair who was therefore responsible. (Obviously not having the requisite number of candidates was also a major reason, and one which is considered within the process).

I'm not sure what alternative interpretations there are, and cleaning up the text (technically) requires a referendum.

Imagine it as two houses of parliament/government. The "upper chamber" has longer terms, and so different duties, to the "lower chamber".

AIUI, the Board is responsible for (OTTOMH, YMMV, E&OE) some of the tasks Nokia were previously responsible for. Primarily, that means finding funding sources for maemo.org.

The Council would be responsible for representing the community to the Board, and - with six month terms - be more reactive and deal with less financial, more operational tasks.

You're probably right, there probably isn't a need for both governance structures - but I'd be wary of switching straight away.

So I'd propose option 4:

4. Election for new Board when the community is happy with the proposed governance model. Councillors can stand, and next Council election can still happen as before (not later than 6 months from the last election) if it needs to.

I agree. I think going from a 6 month term to effectively an 18 month term would be viewed as hijacking, but that transition would affect the Council election, and therefore require a referendum IMHO.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Sounds right to me.

I agree with this. I don't really support Option 1 which was associated with me for some reason.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Alternative interpretation - by current chair - is that chair can announce voting any any random time - for example, tomorrow (with voting starting after a month later), without any consultation with other Councilors, Community, or anyone. Sounds like quite effective way to obstruct Council's work for a more than month (as we assume 2 weeks voting period, handover, etc it's rather like 2 months).

Sure, we can assume that with sensible chair, it doesn't matter - but then, assuming sensibility, we don't need any regulations at all. Furthermore, while I like to start from "people mean well", it can't be assumed in every situation - especially shouldn't when creating rules, that should be as precise as possible.

I agree, that fixing this would require referendum. BTW, what do You think about sensible way it should be written, to avoid any abuse? IMO, "within 6 months, not earlier than after 5 months since last election" would do it.

+1 (also apply to rest of Your post).

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

how comes that even though

• you are the one person more or less implicitly referred to when talking about
  • councillor stepping down
  • council should be re-elected
  • and what not
• you have been dismissed from the Chair by the Council

you still act like you are the Council?

maybe we should do this referendum about re-election of said Council :mad:

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Yes, but the Chair is a position at the pleasure of the other councillors. And we've seen that Chairs who do not have the confidence of the Council can be removed.

I don't think there would be a problem in declaring their last act, the declaration of an election, as null (if that's what the new Chair/rest of the council did).

Any minimum time requirement doesn't allow for extraordinary elections, e.g. incapication or inaction of sufficient number of councillors that the Chair doesn't feel able to continue.

Or a breakdown in trust between the councillors or the Council and the community could result in a new election.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Please don't attribute your ideas to me. I'm well aware of the rules around elections and terms (as you noted earlier), and as Andrew notes changing those would require a referendum. I've never called for the expansion of the current Council term. In fact, I've been quite in favor since the start of this Council term to reduce it and maintain the current September/March cycle.

I'm more attuned to the idea of having a Council and a Board, separately elected, possibly with overlapping members. If the Council & Board members become a mirrored set, then it may be worth consolidating the two. But I would not expect that until a few cycles happen, if ever. Having current Council stand temporarily as interim Board until the first election makes sense, though at the current rate that interim period will likely be measured in days, not weeks.

I'm still having an internal debate on the merits of this idea.

Which is better to do when you see a shark: To attempt swim toward the shore with one leg weighted, hoping the weight will fall off as you swim? Or to take the time to remove the weight in hopes that you can then out-swim a now closer shark?

We're going to have an election before December regardless (be that now, or in the Sept to Nov time frame). Doing so now would be a huge distraction, but would prevent that happening mid-river in the fall. My gut tells me though that it would be too large of a distraction to deal with, and would destabilize the base we're now forming to continue this community past 2012.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

amen to that

is Flop the shark?
but seriously, we are not talking about "swimming back to shore..."
we are talking about jumping into the water to cross... the ocean.
at least, when reading those boards (related to futures) that's what one has the feeling this community is readying itself for.

so, your metaphor, revisited...

• remove the (dead) weight before jumping into the water?
  (de-elect one councilor)
• Go! Go! Go!
  -where are we going? do we need... that? {finger pointing accusingly @ dead weight at one leg...}
  (same?)
• water is cold. can we take the plane?
  (elect another council; use the campaign time to weight the options & gather more facts)

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I'm 100% in support of openness. Transparency. Accountability.

But IMO the current council is at a point where having one or more private discussions may be necessary... and much better than this ongoing airing of dirty laundry.

EDIT: sorry if this was ambiguous or seemingly self-contradictory. See post below for clarification.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I do not follow the situation and do not know the roots of it but clearly there is a ongoing war against Estel. I do not know if this is fair or not but maybe the Councile could work things out in their own small team, and maybe instead of shouting to make an revolution lets move to evolution and solve things instead of starting/continuing wars?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

That's an... unconventional definition of 100% then.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

point missed then.

EDIT: sorry, not meaning to simply be facetious.

I am applying that 100% to community matters. I don't see council members arguing interpersonal issues as a community matter. It's distracting and counterproductive.

If personality conflicts arise, and that's normal, I don't see it as a violation of 100% open governance if the parties involved have a private talk on the subject of the personality conflicts in order to better resolve them. Doing so in front of a gallery interferes with productive process.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I don't see much of that in public, at least not without reading between the lines. Disagreements on community matters, like in this thread, are fine, and normal, and should be public IMHO.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

No one has to strain to see it between any lines. I'm seeing too much of it.

Maybe your tolerance threshold for pointless, damaging *****ing and sniping is higher than mine. I don't want a politically correct council, but I don't want public discussion polluted by dirty laundry, either.

Grown ups find a respectable middle ground.

I've done this stupid egotistical axle-wrapping, too, here and elsewhere. Totally guilty. But after the humiliating revelation that I've let personal issues get in the way of serving the community, I have found that a private discussion with my fellow combatant(s) solely over the personality issues serves us and the community better. Without a gladiator gallery bolstering the egos and helping to polarize the discussion, it's easier to find root cause of dissension/disagreement and identify common ground. Then return to the community better equipped to get things done.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i don't agree with "in private"
one of the Council member clearly shows a lack of civility, part of which is Internet etiquette (he most likely wouldn't have the aplomb to tell those things to people's faces...) and part being that he is an immature ruffian.

that (some of?) the other members of the Council don't like this behaviour and as the person doesn't seem able to grow up, the person as well is a sideline.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

You might be amazed what a table-talk, with or without alcohol, can accomplish between people.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

and where do you suggest we set up... table?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Really, I have to explain modern conversation methods to you?

Maybe you and I need to have a private talk so I can learn why you at some point decided that constantly giving me **** was a fun and useful thing to do.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

think of me as a T-101 then...

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

i'm not constantly giving you... whatever that was.
specifically in the present situation you are trying to distract the topic
yes, it is about

• having a member of the Council step down
• replacing the whole Council if that's the only way to achieve 1st point...

again, nothing personal
Estel doesn't have the manners to coach leave alone lead a Community, certainly not in such a critical period.
want to talk about that?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

misterc, I can see we're not on the same wavelength so, no, I don't want to continue at this point. All I will say is that I agree that discussion over your bullet points is completely valid here... and that in no way is related to what *I* was talking about.

Carry on.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

thank you for acknowledging this!
i understand now why Bill holds you in hight regards.
i have posted all i had to post.
others can put in their opinion(s) if they care to contribute.

unless there is an in-equivocal opinion coming out of it i'll probably end up creating that "referendum" thread i already alluded to.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Texrat, one last point...
you mentioned a couple times (in private discussions we had in the past) that a single person posting with different IDs is breaching the rules of (any) forum.

do you think that a person committing that felony would belong into the Council?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Well, I wouldn't call it a felony first off...

But let's make sure we're being properly specific. There is a special account set up here to be a single council "voice", so if we looked at it as simply as you posted then we automatically have a problem. ;)

But pedantic thoughts and specific accounts aside, my *personal* feeling is that if someone is doing that deceptively, then no, I don't think they belong on the council. But keep in mind that's simply the opinion of a member here and carries no weight.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Texrat, maybe You're "reading between the lines" more, than people intended to put there?

Through Your quotes, I've seen parts of misterc'ish crap - he seem to interpret me as "weight" mentioned by Woody in his post. Personally, I took it as reference to hard decision how (and when) first Board of Directors should be elected.

At least, I hope that it was intended meaning - I don't see reasonable guy like Woody doing such personal attacks in public. It would be impolite, childish and extremely over self-confident - especially, during discussion about feasibility of changing/improving/leaving as-is rules appending to position of Chair - which Woody is on, currently, with trust of whole Council and Community.

Woody, could You, please, explain what You meant, precisely? I'm sure that cutting interpretations done by misterc would be healthy for discussion. I'm afraid, that Texrat's view on current Council may be affected by crap'ish suggestions, made by mentioned person.
---

As for civilized discussions merit:

OK, now I get rationale behind it - if our hypothetical "corrupted" chair is declaring new election without consultations with other Councilors (and their approval), such chair can be changed, and new election declared "null and void" ;) If, in other case, Councilors doesn't want to change chair, it mean that majority of Council feel need for new election, so it should be proceed - sooner the better - anyway.

I think it is reasonable, after clarifying how it works.

/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

So when's the next election?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Well, I tried to settle this thing in transparent, clear, and civil way. We had Council meeting today, so before it started - seeing Woody online - I've asked him to clarify:
http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23mae...07-13T19:48:18

He haven't replied, so I asked about it again, before Council meeting start (he was there already):
http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclo...07-13T21:02:59

As You can see from this quote, he wasn't eager to clear it. I've kindly asked again, after we have discussed other points, and had free time before X-Fade expected arrival:
http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclo...07-13T21:44:22

As You can see from discussion, to my surprise, Woody denied to clarify it and discuss about. Rest of Councilors - Ivgalvez, NielDK and SD69, despite being repeatedly (and kindly) asked, refused to even talk about it.

FYI: I've also tried to talk about it with other Councilors privately, during last week, to no avail. Such unresponsiveness and lack of decisiveness (when done on purpose) is unacceptable for me, in body like Council. I can only imagine amount of peer-to-peer, murky discussions between other Councilors, as it's hard to believe such coordinated lack of reply as coincidence (and even if so, it would mean even worse about Council integrity and Councilors moral side).
---

Conclusion is clear for me. I have my opinion, on how such "sneaky" suggestions on public Council's thread - then, refusing to say "b" latter - stands for Woody's declarations about transparency. But, it is not important at this time and place.

What is important, is that it definitely doesn't allow healthy collaboration on place where it should be happening most - Community Council.

It's really disheartening for me, that people I've trusted (and personally asked - most of them - to become candidates for Council election) refuse to do like a honorable woman/man and clear atmosphere, allowing us to focus on more important things... Especially, considering important tasks, that Community and Council is approaching.

During transformation into Hildon Foundation, and Council becoming (this way or another) Board of Directors, such fogged, unclear and fishy things are not allowed - Council will require much trust from whole Community, as per new responsibilities (including managing real money from donations).
---

Considering all of this - as said - I doesn't see any room for healthy and productive collaboration with current Council squad. Natural result of this is me stepping down from Councilor role, immediately.

I'll continue to volunteer for Maemo Community where I can (and my skills are applicable), especially in projects that You all know me from best (excluding direct collaboration with current Councilors, due to lack of trust in both directions - I've lost trust for them today).

I'm very happy, that I was part of bringing Council election back to living thing, resulting in first election with real voting since long time. I'm sure that such insignificant event as this stepping down (no irony here) won't turn Community from participating into Council or Boards elections, and we will continue to choose our Representatives.

Despite any bad taste due collaboration problems, current Council is still our democratically elected team, representing whole Community - me included. I wish those guys much persistence in leading Maemo through those turbulent times.

This was my last post as current Cadence Councilor - please treat all follow-ups as regular Community ember input..

Sincerely,
/Estel

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

No, you didn't. You tried to again muddy the waters of a meeting with personal drama. I and the other Council (and even one observer) rejected you trying to do so. There was no collaboration, nor "secret messages" involved. I for one was just tired of the game playing and felt it had no place in the meeting.

I had full intention of writing a reply to you. But your post (16:40 UTC) was not something I could reply to before 18:00 UTC, and not something I wanted to deal with in a live forum like IRC during important business. Nor was it more important than my day job (I'm EDT, so that's 12:40pm and 2pm respectively, my time.)

This speaks for itself.

To clarify: You consider talking to Councilors privately to bolster your side of an argument as OK. But...

You then assume (incorrectly) that the rest of Council is doing so about you, and say it shows a lack of integrity and morals? Do you not see the conflict or hypocrisy in these two statements? You accuse others of acts only you have done, but condemn only others for it.

Let me be crystal clear about this: For the past month or so through my reading this post, I've had no private communications with the other Council members. All messages were either on the Council ML (for all Council to see), in public posts, or in logged IRC channel meetings. Frankly this past week, I've been quite busy catching up with my actual job, after being on vacation last week.

There is a great amount of collaboration happening. You've simply been too busy picking petty fights and causing drama than involving yourself in efforts to help the community.

As for "trust" in the current Council, I ask anyone who is bothered by things said here to review the meeting minutes, not just of the last meeting when it's posted (raw IRC log is here), but of all the published minutes. Hopefully you will see the Council acting in the community's best interest, with the possible exception of one member.

In some ways, I'm sad that Estel chose to leave. Sadder still that he did so with a typical venomous "good bye" post we've seen here on TMO all too often. But then to leave because someone did not want to reply to a post on TMO or IRC within a 2 hour time window, on a non-critical topic, smells to me of someone looking for an excuse to leave.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Estel, did it occur to you that it was simply bad timing, and the matter, in your fellow councelars opinion, perhaps needed more nursing, than a few minutes, before a council meeting with (mire) serious community issues to be decided on?
Certainly - repeating a request over and over - doesnt mean you get what you want at a specific time. Any parent can confirm that ;)

Again, I need to say, that this wasnt a proper way to deal with this.
And, no, there have been no "peer-to-peer" murky discussions, excepth those that you apparently tried to initiate with "talks with other councelars privately", at least I was not invited to that party? That also tells something about councelars individual moral, or some at least.

You sure do have your personal opinions :) Now you yourself refers to statement that this is not the right time or place ;)

How the board of directors will be created, or who will be part of it, has yet to be decided to my knowledge. How can you now then start to call such a board fogged, unclear, and fishy?

This saddens me. Despite my comments, which is not personal, but intended to open your eyes and mind a bit. You contributed a lot, for bad - but definately mostly - for good, first thing getting the elections on a roll.

Does this mean we wont be seeing you for some time? jokes aside, I understand your frustration, and had hoped you would help yourself to get past issues and continue working for the community, as a councelar.

Thanks Estel, you know that hard work is in front of us all to keep the community alive.

Best wishes

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Well, as a regular Community Member - again :) I must say I expected answers like that.

For me, calling fellow Councilor a "weight in leg when trying to outrun shark" , that You're wondering if "is best to drop now, or swim to the beach with weight attached to the leg" - in public, Councils thread = doing murky, silly, and cowardly backstab - is totally out of line.

Let put aside Woody's exaggerated self-confidence - the only way you could "drop that weight" is via next election, so You're absolutely sure, that You (in current 4 people Council squad) would be elected, and me not. I'm sure, that Community is wise enough, to properly judge such unjustified, overgrown ego.

But, in case of any misunderstanding, it's a matter of one-liner saying that "it wasn't what I mean, and mistercrap interpreted it wrongly." Or, saying "It is *exactly* what I mean, and he properly assigned You being "weight". It doesn't require extensive pre-meditation.

It isn't case - as You all try to show it - of "request at wrong moment". Despite importance of clearing such thing, as extreme disrespect and - in fact - sneaky trolling against other Councilor in Council's thread, I've asked to talk about in in idle moment, where Council had *nothing* to do. Your (=whole current Council) reaction on IRC logs showed exactly, that it isn't problem of lacking time, but lacking courage.

Trying to explain it like this, is just trying to - cowardly - cover lack of enough honor, to stand behind own words.

But, Woody's stance isn't reason for my decision - it is about reaction of other Councilors, when such problem appeared. Putting head into sand is something, that made me stop wanting to work with those people, immediately.

C'mon, either we're team, or - if we tolerate such things like Woody did in this thread - we can as good disband. I'm not going to wait, until all decide to disband, so I'm stepping down myself.
---

I respect Your (all 4) right to think, that I was "weight in the leg" - so, please, respect my decision, by not suggesting murky things about my reasoning. And be glad, that You're free to run. In fact, I am - and whole Community is - eager to see that "run" made by Council.

Just remember - in case of failure, You wan't have any "weight" to blame.

/Estel

Ps.
When I mentioned trying to "talk it out privately" with other Councilors during last week, I meant council@maemo.org mail. Privately = not in public. When it failed, I tried to use proper Communication channel - Council meeting.

Please, do not suggest, that I was plotting something "behind". No offense taken, I understand, that man judges by himself.

If anyone from current Council feel it worth to continue this discussion, my PM is open and inviting. I hope, that Council have better content to put in "Ask the Council" thread - no reason to make it "Ask the Estel" ;)

Back to productive things, please.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Can you just pay attention is that you always the one who is "honest and right", and doesn't matter what, others are always "not honest, right and unfair". Is like "it's not you, it's just the world around is wrong". And it's not like there are two sides, but all sides are "unfair" to you. Can you just think about it? The world is not going around you, pal.

And it's funny that yu fight for power, even considering about Board and how you gonna get there and current council not. I don't think they care to be Board, but more of structure and future, while you opposite.

You really remind me of Dwight Schrute from The Office.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...inn_Wilson.jpg

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

I base my observations on the blatantly obvious, not the assumed or implied.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

just to throw this point across before it causes further misunderstandings...

does Estel still keep his device that was awarded to him as he was a member of the Council...from the outset it looks like that while we were debating in the CA thread he resisted everyone's efforts to step down or give up his device but from "one phrase uttered by woody" he is stepping down with the knowledge he is keeping his device...

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Estel stepping down doesnt affect his award, as you correctly indicated. Unless he decides himself to forward his award.
He was, like the rest, awarded the device for past deeds, allthough being councelar may have given a small advantage, this is not mainly related to his award.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Everyone seems to get (and agrees to) the implied messages, except the person himself.

In this case, that sole person needs to find other individuals that agrees with his (unrealistic) views; if he does not succeed in doing so, then he must accept that the general view is the consensus and use this for his self-correction.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

and this he obviously does not, alas
keeps insulting others implicitely blaming them for having had to step down
he can blame me indeed for having called a cat a cat
which is probably the reason why i get the honor of explicit insult

anyway, last point to settle...
does Arie step up on the Council as 6th candidate?

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Estel, I assure you that there wasn't any kind of private communication between Council members in any way, or any kind of conspiracy against you. I'm sure you will trust my word, based on my past behaviour.

For me it was simply a question of priorities, I didn't want to distract the meeting in any way from the main point regarding the bylaws document and infrastructure transition, and I didn't have too much time yesterday. I think it's quite clear from the logs.

Now, reached this point, I think you are doing the correct movement, both for you and for the Council, so I won't ask you to continue or argument about your decision.

Estel, I wish you the best in any project you'd like to participate, your help will be much appreciated (as always). It's undeniable that TMO is not the same when you are not here.

I have really tried to avoid these kind of discussions both between Council members (particularly you and Woody) and between counsellors and other community members. So I beg you all to move on and focus on the current transition process.

Re: [Council] Ask the Council!
 

Absolutely agree, and thanks to Your wise reaction, ivgalvez. Mind You - I would *never* discuss it in public, but this unfortunate case started on:

...so with all sadness, it needed to be concluded in public, too. Links and logs were provided on:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...&postcount=109

...which bring us to point, where it's hardly belivable, that decline to settle problems during Council meeting, was caused by "priorities" or "lack of time". As said, it was attempted 3 times, last one, when Council had free 30 minutes, awaiting for X-Fade.

But, logs are provided, so everyone can make own mind. Thus...

...we don't need another never-ending-replies drama (containing, mostly, posts from people that were never parts of events happening).
---

Crisis of trust between Councilors is one of worst thing that can happen in our Community - if my stepping down will allow remaining 4th Councilors to fix it, I'm all happy penguin. Personally, I already feel how much free time it gives, when You're saved from Council's duties (50% of time for creative work, and 50% for useless argues, sadly).

At the same time, Chair won't need to have hard, internal "shark" dilemmas, about abusing election process - another happy one. Finally, even usual bunch of trolls will lie happy with full stomachs, so they're going to stop pestering You (as, in reality, they never cared about any devices or developers - wanted *only* to divide).
---

At the end, everyone is happy, so we can proclaim sweet pink flowers and make love, not peace (or something like that ;) ). If anyone is wondering, despite any controversies about current leadership, I would still donate to maemo.org/hildonfoundation transition, without second though.

Time to get over it, and go back to productive work!