Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

hear you, loud and clear
just, i don't believe that will be possible
call me pessimist if you like (i'm definitely the positive, solver kind of guy (there are no problems, only solutions... one of which has to be chosen...)) but

remember CA?
do you think that community will be able to pull together, define a common strategy, organize the financing and get it all running?
i'm not talking technical, accounting or legal issues here, simply...

let's put it this way: NOKIA holds us together, like it or not.
remove that and...

let's hope for the best (that Community will be able to set up an alternative to Maemo) but let's plan for the worst...

maybe Community should invest a little time and effort distributing the "fundamentals" without repository?
using backup / restore package, with a local rep?

again... worst case scenario :|

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I agree, I think we need to keep repos in order to have a community.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

can we afford it?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Right now merlin1991 hosts 2 repos(CSSU-devel and CSSU-thumb) on his server, which is not dedicated for that AFAIK.

IF the community is so poor that a repo server cannot be payed, I will by a second-hand one and will put it right to my desktop machine.

How much will it cost 300,400 euros?

yes, it won't be on the level of reliability of Nokia (Neimen) servers, but still apt-mirror could be used by 2-3 more guys, so if a bus hits me tomorrow, a simple DNS change will fix the things.

Just an example solution, I think a better ones exist.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I have **** loads of web space. Lets do this thing.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

One crucial difference is that these are not pre-configured out of the box and hit daily by every active N900 out there. Until we know how much traffic extras serves we can only speculate :-(

On the other hand, 2.0 .. 4.1 extras should be doable on any non-zero budget.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I wouldn't mind setting up a repo server @home too. We could set up a small vps to do some distributing and find volunteers to host mirrors on their home computers. It'll be nice to show that off too.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Agree, I was just giving an example, I am well aware of the differences between a homemade server and a production one. But we could solve the traffic issue (if any) by distributing that between several repos, i.e. repo A holds packages a-k , repo B holds lib stuff and repo C - remaining. Will be a nightmare to manage though.

Speaking of that I will try next week to contact a person I know from my high-school, he (along with two other guys) owns a data center, might be of help.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Indeed, one mirror per country/area should be good enough if we can't scrape together funds to buy a big, fat-piped server.

Not really, this is actually possible.
If we can get all servers to rsync certain packages from a location, we can simply forward requests.
For example, popular packages get put on a high-bandwidth server, and less popular ones get put on home boxes.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

We'll need numbers before taking any of these approaches. I'm pretty sure, that home made servers would be enough for Diablo and previous versions of Maemo, but I'm not so sure for Fremantle.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Are we sure that the community will have to support Fremantle extras entirely out of its pocket? Are there N900s in the wild that are still under warranty?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Eventually we will.

Mine is still under warranty, but was bought long after it was discontinued. In fact it was in stock in-store for a pretty long time as the Nokia Care system said it was out of warranty and I had to provide the receipt. I bought it less than a year ago and it still had PR1.1 on it. My brother's has one or two months more.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

No, and of course if someone, anyone, is willing to sponsor it they're welcome :-)

Probably (hey, even my latest N810 is less than 2 years old), but I don't think continued availability of extras is a warranty issue. In any case, arguing on that basis won't get far as we know Nokia hasn't been honouring the warranty even for hardware defects for a while now (see various threads with people getting stuck with E7s or worse).

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

bought my 2nd (new) one in October last year
until a couple weeks ago there was a shop selling them (new?) with two years NOKIA warranty, 1st year warrantied by them.
seems to have dropped from the surface of the earth (as did the N9 64GB (both black & white) & 16GB Magenta & Cyan delivered from Finland).

the N900 has been available for several months, but can't say if they sold any.
should still have e-mail address somewhere, will contact them & ask if it is still available

EDIT: as a matter of fact i even spotted it offered on the Phonehouse site with provider contract until a couple weeks ago

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

actually, if you consider NOKIA's long term commitment and their need for a R&D platform, the chances that Maemo.org will quietly sail thru new years' eve into 2013 and on can't just be discarded, indeed.

EDIT: then again, long term commitment to customer support or R&D are not going to be of much use if they file bankruptcy, now, will it?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

OK - we know that OBS is progressing, but to really *do* something about migrating forums/other infrastructure + calculate cost for OBS network access, we need hard numbers.

Reggie, could You provide average (not during bot attacks) and peak network usage TMO generates? Qgil, could You provide data about extras bandwidth usage (same, average and peak)?

/Estel

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

don't know about the N810, but on the N900 extras comes configured (though disabled) in the standard PR

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

No, not disabled. It is configured and enabled by default since PR1.1 or 1.2

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I think this kind of optimism has to be avoided.

Nokia has just asked that the Maemo servers be moved out of the enterprise facility to somewhere else. X-Fade's personal contract was not extended past June 30. (We got no advance notice.) All we have at this point is the basic maintenance contract with Nemein (which we have not seen).

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

And that is what I call bad news. Not unexpected though, despite all "calm down, there is plenty of time".

Anyway, back to topic.

@qgil, any comments on that. What is the last development you are aware of? Do we have at least a week to save the remnants? What are your "worst case" expectations?

@SD69,what is the legal entity progress?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Rob,

optimism / pessimism is only the expression of a probability.
you have admit that if X-fade's contract has ended 2 days ago, the stats are somewhat skewed :confused:
sorry to hear about X-fade losing his job :(

in fact, this starts to sound very nastily like me EDIT :eek:
NOKIA's situation is so desolated that it may have to file for bankruptcy (well) before the end of 2013 :'(

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Ouch! Can we at least get a dump of wiki & bugzilla if/while there's still time?

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Nokia will be bought well before bankruptcy that at earliest has been estimated to be 2 years away with their reserves.

They are simply cutting stuff that has no value for them, at this point it's understandable for them, unfortunately. :(

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

the reserves were estimated by various financial analysis institutes to last 'til end of the year, beginning of 2013 at best.
common sense does not seem to be... common good for NOKIA management right now, so they'll keep farting away, quarter after quarter that the next release of LostDOS fossilized will be their savior :mad:
most assemblies lines are already outsourced if i remember correctly and... gee, who would want to waste any money on a slurry pit, huh?

NOKIA has passed the point of no return.
alas, going the wrong way.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

just a template to fill in when I find words to fill in here

quite depressing

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

The whole issue is not going to work if Nokia finally pull the plug on this community.

The thing everyone is either missing or avoiding here is "permissions" and without full access to Maemo it is all doomed and will never go any further than it has now for this community.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

You are more right than you even know because Nokia is and always will be controlled by Microsoft from the merger onwards and that will for sure spell the end of Maemo Meego and everything else Nokia was involved in simply because without Microsoft Nokia was doomed and no way they will want progression on anything else but WP.

This community is going about it arse about face and not realising the future actions of Microsoft, Nokia have no say whatsoever in this now because it will be owned and run eventually by Microsoft entirely.

Everyone needs to realise this and stop wasting time on things that will just never happen for this community.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

i for one am going to download interesting packages with w3mir (extras* repository) respectively Pali's download.sh or his improvement on apt-mirror for NOKIA's repositories.
once this is done i will see into porting dpkg-scanpackages respectively dpkg-scansources to Fremantle so that everyone can create her or his own local repository.
without games & themes the whole thing comes down to 15GB.
any mSDHC 32GB card (preferably formatted ext2) can then serve as a "repository" to every N900 owner.

EDIT: sorry, forget about dpkg-scansources :confused:
the 15GBs are only armel deb packages, thus dpkg-scanpackages is all that's needed.
i do appreciate that this community is about developing software, but past 31st of December...

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

ABSOLUTELY the right and only thing to do !!!.

Don't rely on this community.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

once they are created i will make them available to the Community...

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Some clarification to current situation. Nokia has maintenance contract with Nemein for maemo,org to end of 2012 . At the moment maemo.org is still hosted by Logica but there is option to move hosting to Nemein. Whin switch over happens or does it happen depends on some Nokia internal decesions. In fact we have contract for either Logica or Nemein to host maemo.org to end of 2012.

You can count that maemo,org runs as it is to end of year. After that everything is unclear.

Kate

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I will draft some by-laws for community discussion. I suggest you read the last council meeting logs for the discussion.

http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclo...06-29T21:09:23

I think the key thing is to start assembling a migration/infrastructure team of community volunteers.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

So with X-Fade gone, how do we go about accessing the maemo.org servers?

Have Council been granted access?

Before any referendum/election* can be taken, we need access to the profile data in order to send out authentication tokens.

*We will need at least three of these in the next 4 months:

1. Approval of Infrastructure change proposals.
2. maemo.org Coding Competition 2012.
3. Q3/4 Council Elections.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Rob,

i do appreciate what you are trying to organize for the Community and respect your efforts on that venue.
however, and that is sort of a metaphysical consideration, i wonder in how far Maemo is made by the Community, not for.

let me give a couple examples:

• developers; of course, Maemo.org offers infrastructure for developers to offer apps to the Community, but the real move is from members developing; without the repositories this would be limited to OVI store apps and would be a lot less attractive. but again, my point: the repositories are but a tool to make the developed apps available.
• TMO, answering specific questions (sort'a helpdesk for Maemo) or general discussion. it is sharing the knowledge of members of the Community. why haven't we created 100s or more like 1000s of wiki pages instead???

i know this post is going to be met by indifference (@ best) or by a $h!t storm (@ worse) but i would still try to ask you (Council) to reflect about whether Maemo.org is able to organize itself to manage all that infrastructure.
i understand and appreciate that this is more or less the mandate of the current Council, but i wonder in how far management of such a "heavy infrastructure" is not antinomic with Maemo.org's design, origin and substance.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I Checked the X-Fade's situation. He has contract with Nemein, that is subcontractor to Nokia for maemo.org maintenance. I asked today from Nemein management about his situation and they said that he is still main contact for maemo.org maintenance.

Kate

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

abill_uk, read again my post above. It is pointless to keep nurturing that discussion. I understand your reasoning, my explanation should be also easy to understand. If you still want to "discuss" the opening of software components then go to one of the many threads about this topic e.g. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=84478 . It doesn't belong to the informative and productive thread we have here.

At this point it is up to this community to decide what hopes does it stand for. The Nokia strategy related to maemo.org and Linux or Qt development is clear. The licensing of Maemo and Harmattan proprietary components is clear. And (in reference to this thread) it is now also clear that Nokia will keep funding the maemo.org maintenance until the end of this year - giving the 6 month notice that we have always mentioned for a worst case scenario.

If you are interested in the future of this community then plan with this scenario in mind. If you are skeptical but still appreciate this community, then help (or simply let) those willing to push it further by avoiding distractions and focusing on what matters.

I don't have an agenda about the future of this community, and Nokia doesn't have it either. It's all in your hands.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

qgil, I think You've missed my question, few pages ago:
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=96

If You're not right person to ask that (second part of post, marked as question for You), who is? Nemein?

I think that without hard data re resources and bandwidth consumption, we're going in circles. Such data is needed to check pricing for sufficing hosting, which is, in turn, needed to prepare proper fundrising (establishing legal entity goes in background anyway).

/Estel

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

I don't know. This is a question for Niels / Nemein, who are the ones looking at this data in order to calculate themselves the cost of hosting maemo.org.

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Here's the TMO server bandwidth (in Gb) data from 2010 to now:

2012:
06 - 376.13
05 - 403.78
04 - 368.65
03 - 394.38
02 - 384.37
01 - 419.57

2011:
12 - 404.61
11 - 421.38
10 - 493.13
09 - 490.93
08 - 480.25
07 - 483.57
06 - 517.38
05 - 501.05
04 - 457.63
03 - 492.40
02 - 504.09
01 - 533.76

2010:
12 - 504.38
11 - 561.72
10 - 591.75
09 - 540.36
08 - 588.23
07 - 617.21
06 - 687.86
05 - 804.83
04 - 442.95
03 - 397.23
02 - 383.63
01 - 418.40

Re: Migrating to Community-driven Infrastructure - Step 1: Inventory
 

Thanks.
Is the $195 fee you mentioned for vbulletin a one-time fee or an annual license (or something else)?