Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Just want to say that if council cant track each other and own decisions and announcements, how could we?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

community VS. (stands for versus) council?
community VS.NOKIA?
council VS. NOKIA?

all sounds like a zero-sum game to me :confused:
any device council (member) gets is one device community (member) doesn't get :(
well, council members are community members too, aren't they?
so, no, one dev for a council member = one dev for a community member :p

community VS. NOKIA?
well, NOKIA provided the devices, so, what can they gain in that "i want one too" game?
code?
yes, that's what NOKIA has been giving those devices away for years already, so that ppl would write apps or drivers or.... PR aka Public Releases? if you want to consider the Community Seamless Software Update a PR, yes, even that.
that's all coding competition, right?
so where does community award fit in?
for non coders, ppl who tested, wrote wiki pages or otherwise helped the community? like being member of the council?

council VS. NOKIA?
one can't help wondering what game those two would be playing here, huh? :rolleyes:
if one accepts that this community can't exist without NOKIA, then the role of the council, maintaining a good relationship between the community and NOKIA would be a possibility.
to whose advantage? NOKIA?
well, considering that

• no other devices run Maemo in any useful form
• other software that runs on the NITs is scarce (yep, NITDroid, about the only one, though functionality is still limited, alas, thus...)(device gets very hot, no SD card support aso. asf.)

the community is completely dependent on NOKIA and the last few days are proof enough how ungrateful the community can be towards the ppl they elected less then two months ago...
does the master bite his dog?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I agree with most of what you said, but have a few small things to say about it:

Lesser deserving, in their opinion. Calling anyone on this list not deserving is frankly an insult. Some people may feel that X deserved it more than Y, that's fine, everyone is entitled to believe what they want. But the fact of the matter is that even if you completely discard the devices that went to Council, there were 21 other devices. Even if there were 4 more, someone would have been left off to be complained about.

And tell me, how does advancing NitDroid help Harmattan? Yet people wanted it's author to get an N950. This competition was not about advancing Harmattan, in any way, shape or form. The devices could have been Lumias, and the decisions would have been the same.

Also, please, do list the members who have voiced that they'll no work on Harmattan. To date, I've seen one person say that, in an angry reply to a self-appointed "Harmattan community leader" who was attacking other recipients (who had no beef with Council getting awards in his first post I'll note). One, of 25, who is beyond deserving of the device for past deeds. And it's not like it was announced before he was awarded that he wasn't going to do it. So what, you want us to retroactively remove the device, because of something said after the fact?

Lets not make things up to fight about, please.


On my part, I can tell you that despite claims to the contrary, I made no personal attacks. I made a light joke or two (mainly about hypocritical things said), but nothing on the scale of what's been done by others, or by you for that matter, by singling out individuals as being "unworthy". (And yes, in this very post, you did just that, both in the case of "the one" above, and in saying SD69 was the only Council deserving, implying the others, whose names are well known, were not.)

I made that comment, because it was already sent. Quim missed it in his inbox until it was pointed out to him that he missed it. Nobody was trying to "cover their backs", especially not me, as I have nothing to gain in this, being the one Council who isn't getting anything for it.

Check your facts... You're simply and flatly wrong on this one.

I find it equally incomprehensible that you do to not get this point: Council did not choose this process. The process was chosen before anyone on Council now was elected, with the exception of SD69 (who was already Council, and whom everyone has already beatified). Council explicitly asked for clarification on this, several times, specifically because it was not a desirable process. It was one setup by Nokia and handed to us as an entering Council.

Why would I apologize for a process I had no role in setting up? Why would I apologize for a process that most of the community did in fact agree to months ago, and still does, with the exception of a VERY small minority?


Again, did you read the logs? If you did, you will see Arie is not "singled out" for anything. 3 lines, in a log of over 500. The only one bringing attention to it was him. And yes, I would call 50 pages of 6 or 7 people repeating the same thing (including "how does this help Harmattan") after that point being addressed at least 12 times as going crazy. What would you call that?

So tell me again, what is Council to do? Here you say the should remain silent and "not fuel the fire". But in the other thread, when Council stopped replying because it was the weekend, you (and others) criticized that we were not being responsive. You've made both claims now, saying both are the wrong way to go. So which is it? What, exactly, do you want to see happen?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

So the problem is now known.

His behavior from hereon is his own. It's his karma to carry forward. Glad to know he doesn't care for my position.

It is a wholly returned sentiment.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I do believe the information and proof given by SD69 is what folks wanted. Would be nice to have a statement that nothing as self-serving will happen again; but that's not a plausible request.

I can only talk for myself, but I'm satisfied to know who/what the problem is exactly.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

management: doing things right
leadership: doing the right thing

council, please?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

You are so wise. Howcome you are not in council? :D

Keep it coming...

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I would go with one named council keep device but would be thrown from council as minimum, though it would be better to give device to itsnotabigtrunck or e-eyes from him before he leave.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Hey, people, how about we use all this energy and turn it into something good instead of adding volume to this thread?
As I can see it, it makes no sense to review the results of the CA. The lesson for the future is clear - alter the way the council members are awarded devices. That simple.

So, as there are voices some other deserving developers were omitted in the prizes - how about the community makes up for this? I mean, how much is a N9 nowadays? If the community thinks that those developers are so deserving (and requiring for their further work!) we could easily donate a few bucks each and fix the issue. Yeah, those are not N950, but one can perfectly code and develop with them, right?
Would that please everybody? This thread is on a straight way to a brawl, with some hurtful and inappropriate things said already - so why not to turn this effort it into something beneficial instead?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Again, the fact that Council was to decide the award was not Councils, but handed down by Nokia. Do you think an independent group would have not wound up with a similar list, if not the same list? I think, at most, one or two people would have been chosen differently, and Council would still have had 4 winners.

Yes.. Let's do that math. In the elections here, you can vote for up to the total number of candidates in the order you wanted them. If you didn't want those other candidates, you don't have to vote for them, at all. You could vote for JUST your one if you liked, and if everyone felt this way, just the one would get picked.

So even by the math on this, you're simply wrong. Did you vote in the last election? How could you have done so and missed that you didn't have to cast 5 votes?

I see... Did you want me to kick/ban him from the channel for saying people can use their ignore buttons? What would you have liked me to say? Is there something else that someone has said, that I've reacted too, or failed to react to, that you'd like to admonish me for? Also, how is that a "personal attack", to suggest that people can use a forum function?

So tell me: Why did you stand by while Aries said that three people, by name, were unworthy of their award, and did nothing to help to community? You were in the thread... I know you read the post because you replied to it, and liked it. Was it so normal that you didn't pay attention?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Agree. But the coding contests may suit them better. I know I don't qualify due to time restraints, but those that are more deserving should have already looked at that as an alternative to this twisted opportunity.

I think it's not apparent but let's be 100% honest. This is more than likely the very last time any CA will ever happen again here. This crew of folks that make up the current Council... that's more than likely the last Council.

And what a legacy some of them have started to make already.

I think the energy of this thread is dwindling once the truths came out, the reasoning behind the usage of the acerbic tone is also known as well.

Nothing can be done. It's apparent that individual is not a civil, nor honest person. And that's what this Council will now represent, even if it's in part just that one individual.

Nothing can be done about that really either. Oh well, I hope that individual enjoys the spoils of this victory. It'll be short-lived.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

i'm not in council and i did never apply for a device...
what does that tell you about my interest for this community?
i'm simply a N900s owner and i have made a selection of less then 200 apps which i have installed on at least one of my N900s at all times
i have downloaded the deb packages of those apps and i have several copies of the most recent firmware...
do i need this community?

well, i still can't download PR 1.3.1 other then flashing my device, going online & updating it with SSU.
so, yes, i believe NOKIA will continue to finance at least its own repositories for Maemo and while at it, the community (aka extra) repositories don't cost that much more to keep up & running, do they?
i really wonder, why do i actually even post here :confused:
:rolleyes:

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

The problem is, the "right thing" is very dependant on who's talking. The right thing for one person is to take away devices from Council and give them to two other specific members. The right thing for another is to take them from existing winners to give them to a similar set of members who they deem "more worthy". Yet another is to only allow me to vote, which would change a total of three recipients. Many have said they felt the current winners should simply get their devices, and that would be the right thing.

Which "right thing" should be done?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

again, ask yourself...
who benefits most from Maemo?
the community or NOKIA?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Unfortunately, I think that the misunderstanding was on SD69's side. I believed all along that Estel was going to enter the competition, and he never said otherwise. I think this was a misinterpretation because of a rather minor language barrier.

And yes, I did think everyone but me was running. And I did bring it up, often, that this would be a problem, including at Council meetings. But when Quim and all the rest of Council (and the community present) agree with how things will be done, multiple times, one gets tired or raising the same argument.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

More transparency, more honesty, more patience from the Council because you all are going to be judged now; fairly or unfairly so.

I think cooler heads have prevailed in this thread, I move that the excitement and energy be used to do something else now that the truth(s) are now known.

And I'll have to admit; despite not knowing or caring for this person, Estel is now the second person to have been placed on my ignore list here at TMO in my nearly 5 years here.

His remarks will not be missed.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

those would just be righting things, not doing the right thing

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Why are you even here? You have you n900s and 200 apps all the time :) that explained why are not in the council.

Re: [Council] Community Council Meeting (June 22, 2012)
 

Really? Because that's pretty much the definition of political correctness as I know it.

You of all people should know that Council (and moderators) are people, not robots. Sometimes a light-hearted comment is a good way to nip conversation in the bud and move on. I know that you know this, and that it can wind up being blow way out of proportion, so why add to this? (I recall a certain thread closing post you did that everyone went nuts over a year or so back that was not so dissimilar.)

Sorry, but I do call what's happening here (and in the other thread) crazy. I stand by that, even as I participate in it.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Neither. Given how this went down, just a few rather scandalous individuals are benefitting the most.

Point to them, ask them. I'm no longer sure I can answer much more since it seems no matter what, who needs to benefit from Nokia is dwindling down due to actions as we've all bear witness to as of late.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

not sure, but maybe


I didn't vote, but no i'm sorry for that.

he suggested ignore for specific 2 persons, and it's not polite to do on official meeting, and in public for a council, as it's for other council to tell him about it. To close eyes on bad things is most times as to do them yourself.

And i did mentioned few times that i do not agree with all people, but as well i told it's okay, as i understand it's personal and as all judges humans it can happen. But the point of self judgment and now when we see the problem, i think that person doesn't deserve device, as h proved that. i think it's fair enuf.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I can confirm that Estel has never said he will not run for a CA. And I can confirm (iirc) he said several times on IRC that he will wait until the final date for the submission.

You may trust me or not, it is up to you, I won't search 2-3 moths of #maemo IRC logs just to make unhappy those who don't believe in my words.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

lesson to be learned...
the council should speak in one voice and that voice should have an impeccable command over the language used to post.
thus, nothing personal, but Estel should not make any statements on behalf of the council.
when a crisis arises, the right thing is probably better discussed and agreed upon behind closed doors and only then one member makes one unequivocal post.

it's called public image and yes, the "image" of the council in the community has been damaged.
not so much because of the devices, but because of the way the crisis was not managed.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

told you or other councils? and don't tell they don't need to communicate. As well why would he wait for last submission not to get down on first ones?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

take a step back, please
the community is nice, but do your really think NOKIA hasn't proven in the last two years it could see beyond Maemo.org and TMO?
can TMO jump over its own shadow?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Thank anyone who participated in bringing clarity to the issue at hand, and especially Nieldk for his apology.

May i suggest to the council thinking about having:
1) a vote on re-allocating that one particular device
2) if 1) happens to result in yes, either have a 'dice roll' to allocate it to often referenced two developers, or someone else

(In my pure honest opinion would i allocate it then to itsnotabigtruck for his work on Harmattan/inception; which is a true milestone, and a bit more applicable to the community)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Let it go. The corroborated stories are coming out of the woodwork now.

No amount of questions will ever get those people to ever admit any wrong doing whatsoever.

Just let it go. Nothing good will come of it. The damage, as far as I am concerned (and perhaps others) is done. I insist that we all just let it go.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

the ultimate answer to the ultimate question is... why not?
;)

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I've been here since it was ITT. TMO is a shadow of that; these proceedings have made TMO even that much paler.

Nokia has been generous with this forum and group of individuals. But that's at an end soon, if not now.

Nokia isn't on trial here though. Just a council that seemingly has unsavory people that are unnecessarily benefitting from the remaining kindness from Nokia.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

again...
don't you think NOKIA has proven they can see beyond Maemo.org & TMO?
so, why would they stop supporting Maemo after yet another Tempest in a teapot.... eeeh, thread, of course, on TMO?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

You are saying I am lair or what? I am still young enough for my memory to serve me well in 99.9% of the time. I just don't want to waste 2-3 hours for something which will change nothing. Nor the outcome of CA, neither your impression there is some conspiracy going on.

@ZogG: I don't expect council meetings to happen on #maemo, do you?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Why are you asking me questions about Nokia when it's a self-serving, somehow voted in puerile individual that's causing this thread to begin with.

Without him in place, or part of this forum, I'd not have had this discussion nor had to take any time out of my schedule to discuss anything such a person would have done.

Simply stated, you want those answers, I don't have them. I have answered to the best of my knowledge of what you've asked; I do not see the reasoning.

Perhaps it's time you answer some questions since it's starting to feel like a journey down a rabbit hole I'd rather not travel. Nokia has been beneficial to this site. It's the current Council I hold at fault.

TMO is going down because Maemo is dead. Why? Ask Nokia. MeeGo is dead? Why? Ask Intel and Nokia. You're asking me questions that you need to be asking Elop.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

You might not be one, but you're in the company of unsavory people/person. You have a problem with that, solve the bigger issue - at least one of you has lost the trust people in this community. That's the consequence for those types of actions.

Earn the trust back or complain about it ad nauseum or ignore it. It's not a problem if you have a clear conscience.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Quoted as this seems to be the most sensible post in this whole thread - why hasn't anybody listened, acknowledged or thanked?

Maybe because many are too far gone with their own standpoint and cannot / will not give up chomping at the bit...???

Sorry guys but this has now gotten to the point of being both pathetic and embarrassing. I imagine after all this in-fighting (b*itching) nothing will be changed except the attitudes and stand-offs between fellow members. Nice result.

I, for one, am off. To read other (informative) posts and continue playing with my toy.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

why not?
have anywhere else we can get a more or less fully fledged Linux / GNU in our pocket?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

i certainly wouldn't waste my time on Flop.
this being said, maybe you can answer a last question? did you read somewhere an official statement NOKIA will stop financing Maemo?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

But that wouldn't be very transparent, now would it. Everyone else is calling for more transparency, and you call for opacity? I'm not saying that what you said is false, or that either is the right or wrong way to go. I'm just noting that even in this community there are people wanting things both (multiple) ways.

Which device would that be? The one that was donated in the CC? It wasn't donated back into the CA, but into the CC. Even if we were to go against the winners wishes and re-allocate it, I'm pretty sure everyone would be unhappy with whomever it went to. Either because it didn't go to their person, or because we're "stealing" a device from the CC, or...

Actually, they happen on #maemo-meeting on a regular basis (but you know that...) Yet even with all these "concerned" people on TMO, many of whom are on IRC, not one of them showed up last Friday. Not even the ones having a chat with others in the next channel over on this very topic while the meeting was going on, even to observe.

But then, who wants to spend time in a boring Council meeting?

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

It's a thin line talking facts, rumors, lies and trolling. Most people assuming they have correct facts but are infact wrong, others are wrong when they think they are right.

Same goes for rumors, lies and trolling. Be careful when handing out statements like that, especially in a thread like this.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

Stop it, Davie. There's almost no existing thread where you were positively contributing.

Re: Community Council Thread - Questions, Solutions and Grievances
 

I'm sorry for the ambiguity, i meant the one that Estel was allocated of. (if the accusation prove to be true which seems it is)