Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Nowhere - it's totally out of scale for devices that (might) interest me.

Yes - devices that are "just toys/gadgets" (aka *not* mobile computers) starts to begin just before Harmattan point on my personal scale, making them uninteresting. OTOH, Maemo 5 marks point, where best device exist, considering compromise between feasibility of daily use and true mobile computer experience (there were some openmoko devices, that would be, probably, being further on linux compatibility scale when considering system, but were practically unusable in real life, due to bad hardware decisions and other things).

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't want to convince anyone about some devices being good or bad - I'm just trying to evaluate BB10 in my personal scale. My question was rather targetted to people, that already had chances to mess with devices (prototypes, dev program, or whatsnot), not to spark fanboys posts about how great harmattan was (or wasn't), which seems to be what happened.

So, again - could anyone, who used BB10 device in any form in *reality*, could answer my question about internals? qwazix, despite you've ignored my last question, I'm looking at you, especially.

/Estel

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

THIS. **** that worked on Symbian years (or a whole decade) won't do on Maemo. Same with integrating years old libs or castrated frameworks (webOS, i'm looking especially at you). The mobile industry smells "regressions" and "unnecessary reboots" all over.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Estel, I ignored your question mostly because you called my previous comments nonsense, so I wouldn't think you'd be interested in hearing more from me. Anyway, I don't have any hard feelings about it so here's my opinion on the matter:

There are two things I love on Maemo 5 which aren't very much related. There's of course some synergy, but one does not hard-require the other. The first is the fact that Maemo is almost a desktop distribution, with desktop grade apps (generally when having the N900 is almost like having your laptop with you, thing that I haven't experienced with any other mobile), and the other is that it's in a great deal open source. In that light I will disagree that Harmattan is on the other end of the line, as it's almost as open as Fremantle, with the exception of the swipe UI, which isn't a very big hurdle for development anyway.

Explanation of why those two aren't related: Let's say that Microsoft released a phone with windows 8 pro and intel processor. It would be very much a pc in the pocket, but it would be far from open.

On the pc-in-pocket aspect, we'll have to wait and see as this isn't something that you can know in the beginning, even the N900 was not very good at that when it launched, as it didn't even have a spreadsheet editor and other much needed applications. The BB10 build I'm using doesn't have a pdf reader for example, but I found a very nice app for the job, which works well, but doesn't integrate with the mail client to open pdf's directly. The good thing is that there is access to the filesystem so that hurdle could be easily worked around. I've even found a terminal application, python is there, but things like ssh are missing. Command line applications can't be built out of the box with the blackberry sdk but this could change in the future. Porting desktop Qt applications is easy so maybe we will see some of them. On the other hand Maemo had both GTK and Qt so it is once again a winner. Conclusion: The potential is there, we'll have to see what happens.

On the openness side, things are dark and grim. The OS is not opensource, (while some sources may be available since before RIM acquired QNX), the apps are not opensource, and there's no other way to run apps on your device than the store. So on your line with Fremantle and Harmattan it is far after Harmattan and in the gutter. On the linux standards front I can only comment that QNX is not Linux.

Some extra things. The software bloat is overwhelming. The people who put the full retail BB10 on their Dev Devices find the 1GB ram lacking, and even I have experienced apps shutting down on me when opening a few browser tabs. I understand that it has more than twice the pixel count of the N900 but 1GB ram should be enough.

Yesterday, I was searching for an old email in the Hub. The results were from the last month or so, and the mail I wanted was not there. There was no way to force it to get more mails. I took out the N900, and the laggy modest, happily fetched my required mail after a while. I can really put up with lag when I know that finally my job will get done.

The obscure "whose gonna ever need that" things that I've done with my N900 can only be matched by the N9, and not fully. For example last week I needed to open a port on the router in my office, so I ssh'ed -X in my computer there, opened firefox, logged in the router, opened the port and my job was done. Most "whose gonna need it" things that make the N900 special come from the legacy of the things in the software. X forwarding, Wacom X driver, kernel drivers for various devices, even the polish that Hacker mentioned is due to the use of mature desktop toolkits adapted to touch, and not things created from scratch. All those glitches that have been ironed out with thousands of lines of code throughout the years pop up again while you try to ditch the "dead" weight. You also ditch possibilities with that.
I don't have any hopes that these kinds of things will ever be possible with a mobile phone again, unless we do it here in maemo.org Mobile linux is going a different direction nowadays, not bringing linux down to the phone but trying to use the kernel as a basis for something completely different. The desktop linux stack on the phone will most probably die with Harmattan...

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Hmmm, that makes me curious about UbuntuPhone. To see what gets axed in the software, what gets introduced. Cant wait until October.

However, by then we might have Android 5.1 (Licorice) running on the latest Linux Kernel (3.7.6), on a 64bit processor. Namely, an ARM Cortex A57 with a ARM Cortex A53 LITTLE.big System on a Chip.

Ofcourse, it would be a Motorola-made "X-phone"...: The Google Nexus X.
Actually, there's an ad for it already http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=r0RqP...qPhr-hdA&gl=GB

The XPhone is hilarious! That's the type of new-player phone that has enough killer apps and features to move to the number 1 mass-market phone position!

If a phone can't produce enough killer features/apps, it's playing for a niche position. If it can't manage anything, it'll be eliminated from the competition by the marketplace.

I think BB10 is solid niche material (business phones/hyperconnectivity), with a chance for long term general consumer growth.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Quickly scanned this thread, doesn't seem to have been mentioned that of the 70k+ apps, the makeup is as follows: 40% android 60% native.
The 1k figure was a reference to premium/high-recognition apps, not native ones...
Still even with that 1k, we all know there's quite a few high-recognition apps missing, some which they've already confirmed are coming.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

jalyst,

Any source you could point to confirming the 40-60 split? Also the 60% are like Harmattan in the beginning i.e. mostly RSS and fart apps?

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

The 40% Android applications was mentioned at least in ArsTechnica's review.

Also we still don't have a proper fart application for harmattan, at least not in store. A major gap in our ecosystem IMO.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

WPx Emulator, Meewhip? :D


Albeit they are higher quality than regular fart apps :D

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Why ask for mediocre-grade fart apps, when I can personally generate to you them in high definition...with a state of the art olfactory technology!!!

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

The joke that seems to be keeping TMO alive... It never gets old, does it?

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

What? we don't have have a fart application for harmattan? It's truly a burning platform.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...light=fart+app

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Not off the top of my head, but I did read that at several locations, & even in the liveblog at Engadget when Qns were asked as I recall.
They referred to the 42k+-odd as "Native Apps", of course quality can/will vary immensely...

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

I have about the same feelings and want to return to the N9, even if the N9 has its quirks too. I just feel better with it.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

been using bb10 on devalphab as my main phone, what bb10 apps do you suggest to install ? I am wondering if there could be some kind of client to install only floss to it ? like fdroid on android platforms ?


--
http://rzr.online.fr/q/qnx

So, I was watching some BB10 related Youtube videos. This one shows BB10 running an Android port of Songza. http://youtu.be/xOWqUrOwn98

I liked the implementation of the "swipe from bottom right then diagonally up and left" to function like the back button. I thought it looked pretty smooth. If this is a sign of things to come, I'd say it doesn't look too bad.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

That gesture is only used in Android apps, so to me it creates confusion....

But I am liking BB10 more and more each day. I now love the Hub a lot because of how quickly and clearly I can read messages from different services.

Again I think it will be like N9, some UI quirks here and there but when you get used to it, it just works and many users will start swiping on their friends' Android/WP/iOS devices. Besides, this is the PR1.0 of BB10. There are a lot more to come.

THIS. I agree that this is only version 1.0 of BB10, and there is always a nice jump to the 2nd version of a new OS in terms of new features and bug fixes, so the future is bright.

I saw more BB10 swipe-y goodness today, indicating that further Easter egg gesture controls may continue to surface. From resetting the hub with five down-and-left diagonal swipes from the upper right corner of the screen, to multiple level hub viewing by swiping right from the bottom left edge of the lower menu bar while reading a particular email, BB10 makes me want to have a go when it gets to the States.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

My sim card is happily back in the N9, at least until I get my hands on a non Dev device. The dev one is not a very cool experience as a daily phone.

And the hub annoyes me because it doesn't mark messages as read upon reading them but rather when you press back, after reading rhem. Thus if I lock the phone while reading a message it still shows the notification.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

The problem Blackberry will most likely face is that the market is not willing to accept a PR1.0-type device any more.

The N9 was the exception to the rule as Nokia's fate didn't depend on it and in fact we all know measures were taken to limit its spread.

BB Z10 OTOH is a mass-market targeting product for which consumers won't have time for if its a PR1.0 device. This is one of the reasons why WP isn't able to gain traction as there are still functionalities missing on it which are on iOS and Android.

For BB to succeed it needs to very quickly (~3-4 months) catch up for all the holes it has vs Android & iOS and then start to come up with unique features otherwise the prospects don't seem too good especially when there is no low-budget phone yet to sustain the Company. BB7 is really long in the tooth and hopeless even when compared to the Asha series.

Furthermore, its not like as if BB didn't have time to get on market a polished product, it has been delayed a number of times so it should have already come with holes all covered up. In this day and age to have a pathetic maps application is kamikaze in all honesty...

I agree that BB10 has some catching up to do in comparison to iOS and Android. But I'm not as sure that the timeframe is so short, nor do I think that BB's strategy is to be as mass market as the duopoly are at this stage of the game.

I think BB's idea is to slow the rate of customer defection to the duopoly (I think BB still has 70-80 million subscribers), protect the business market segment by focusing on core strengths (security, connectivity, etc.), and expand app, media, and content offerings to be a legitimate business + personal smartphone solution.

In my view, the big difference between Nokia's transition to WPx and BB's is that BB is playing to its traditional strengths, PLUS new goodness. Most everyone agrees that BB10 is a huge step forward over BB7. I think this means that their retention rate of loyal customers should be good, which buys them time and gives them a base on which to build.

OTOH, Nokia's change to WP has been a disaster. Elop has managed to lose something like 17 out of every 20 smartphone customers. The regressions are huge. Most of us are in this forum because we preferred the old spirit and quality of Nokia to its current MS/WP approach. We mostly do not see WP8 as an improvement, and we wait and reach for Sailfish, Unbuntu, Tizen, BB10, Android, etc. as our next devices. Elop has pissed away his base, and he cannot steal a new one from the duopoly. His time, and perhaps Nokia's, is running out.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

You mean like Apple? :) One can side-load the Google Maps .bar and apparently it (mostly) works very well. Agreed though that Maps will eventually need to become more competitive.
But that's one major aspect, there's soooo many other things (major & minor) that need to be tallied-up, & the importance of each varies hugely from person to person...
Also apparently support for latest version of Android is coming this yr, no firm dates though, could be very end of the year, which is good as they need to focus mostly on native anyway.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

After using the Z10 for two days I can say I am terribly disappoonted. The thing is a bugfest. And this comes from somebody really used to loving products like the 5800, N900 and N9 which are far from bug-free.

I eagerly switched my sim from the N9 when the Z10 arrived. Every time I went into an elevator or something the phone lost signal and never recovered. It did this once or twice without notice so I had to constantly keep an eye on the signal bar. I searched the relevant forums and people suggested to switch from automatic network selection to manual. I did that and the next few hours the signal didn't drop. To my disappointment it appears that it had, but without refreshing the signal bar. Nobody could reach me and I couln't make calls. A switch of airplane mode on and off would solve the problem temporarily in both cases. Then came the spontaneous reboots and occasional freezes, once while loading tmo. The straw that broke the camel's back was the infamous notification bug which some attribute to bluetooth headsets or other accessories but I don't have aby of them. The OS loses the sound subsystem altogether so that no sound comes out whatsoever, be it ringing, the other party in a phonecall, dialling button sounds, music, everything. That is a reason to miss calls or answer calls where you can't hear the other party. A reflash seems to have sorted the disconnection problems (something about unrecognized sim #MM3), it did nothing for the crashes and sound problem. Saying that the required reboot is an inconvenience is a hell of an understatement. This behavior from a self-proclaimed business phone is unacceptable so the sim went quickly happily back to the N9.

The fact that all these issues are completely unrelated software bugs shows that it isn't a special condition but overall beta software quality for a flagship product that is supposed to save RIM. I somehow believe the rumors about insane amount of returns as any one of my issues is return-worthy. RIM has acknowledged the sound problem, and their knowledge base article suggests to reboot your phone as a workaround, with no solution provided. I really hope they fix this mess because deep down I like BB10 and I want it to survive.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

thanks for the perspective.
After using the Z10 for well over a month, i can offer a diametrically opposed point of view.

In the very first instance, I would call anyone who is a long time N9 user to think back to the initial firmware released with their handset. The N9 also copped heaps of flack from many here for being "beta" quality and the list of bugs was enormous! Despite the last PR update fixing a lot, the N9 is still left with a number of major bugs and issues....

A number of the issues you have identified have been covered extensively on various BB forums and it would appear at this stage, may relate to some specific carrier related firmware "tweaks", many of which will hopefully be addressed with the 10.1 update which should come through in the next month or so.

I have had a couple of random reboots and have missed some audible message notifications (usually when I'm actually in the hub or using the device).
I have had nothing but AWESOME signal and reception at all times. In fact, compared to my N900, SGSII, One X, Bold 9900 and a handful of legacy android and symbian devices, I would say that this is the ONLY device i've had that performs as well as my N9!

There are a number of things that, in my opinion, can be improved with the OS and UI, and I expect that with upcoming releases (I've already had 1 firmware update and 10.1 will make 2 in 3 months - some other OEM's could follow this form!), users can see tweaks and adjustments.

This isn't an N9. I had some re-thinking to do when adjusting to the UI (kept swiping down to close apps and a whole host of other things that had become second nature over the last two years!) but it has presented a great and refreshing alternative to the current batch of crap devices targeted solely at consumption and not productivity.

The device, for me, has been quick, fluid and incredibly easy to adapt to. The hub, combined with at a glance notifications on screen and the baked in core apps, has made for an easy transition across to BB and I look forward to what future updates will bring. (Also Heebo is in the BB market which is my no 1 time wasting game)

I am truly enjoying the use of my Z10 and can say without a doubt that, as a first version, this device and OS, in it's own way, is one of the few devices on the market that has implemented their own version of the amazing gesture driven paradigm that was embraced by the N9.

Of course it's still only a stop gap measure until Jolla release their device! :D

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

The fact that qwazix and onethreealpha have so different view of the device suggests to me that there is a lot of variance in the HW quality of the device. (provided both are running tha same base release and same set of applications)

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Don't believe it's related to hardware quality although there are 4 variants of the Z10 available. Carrier updates were installed on startup after my SIM was installed which is standard for non carrier branded devices. It is known that, specifically, Verizon handsets in the US are having all sorts of issues.
Mine is a STL100-2 and is running 10.0.10.90 on Telstra.
Although it's a 4G device, I don't use LTE as I don't need it.
I don't use the Android runtime and have no side loaded apps. Haven't installed any of the known battery killers either.
With screen brightness at 75% and NFC, Blue tooth and GPS off, I routinely get 1 1/2 to 2 days and that's with multiple calls, texts, social media apps and 3 email accounts active.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Just wondering have you managed to sync your contacts using carddav , did manage to connect DevAlphaC to my ownclound but no xfer yet

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

caldav - ok.
carddav - no luck even though there's support for both built into BB10.

most people using owncloud are having connection/authentication issues.
see here for some discussion:
http://forum.owncloud.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9187

will dig around and have a play over the weekend and update on this thread

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

onethreealpha I mostly agree with you despite the different experience. The phone is good, but those bugs are blockers, it's not that I can live with with them like I managed to live with the N9. In that case, having to remove accounts once or twice and set them up again, or kill smartsearch once in a while were things I could live with so that I enjoyed using a nice, multitasking phone. The weirdest of all things is that the DevAlpha B had neither reception, nor sound problem. And while it occasionally crashed (and the android runtime was more often non working than working) it never spontaneously rebooted.

I don't have a carrier's phone, but an unlocked LE device straight from blackberry, and no carrier updates were installed. (we don't have branded phones here at least for the last couple of years) I hope the issues will be solved with 10.1. The Dev Alpha C seems much more stable, and doesn't seem (yet) to have those weird issues.

btw, is there a way to sideload apps from the Z10 on the alpha C? I would kill for gtalk on that keyboard.

The browser speed on the Z10 is awesome. I wouldn't believe that a phone would be able to render that fast. On the DevAlphaC, not so much, and some times the browser just hangs on ~3% and you have to reload the page.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Hi mate,

sucks that you've had a bad experience. I'd have been inclined to send the little red one back and ask for a replacement.
fresh install of the OS seems to fix issues for some but i guess what some people can live with, can be a deal breaker for others.
the biggest problem is that some of the issues reported so far seem to be random in nature, both with regard to occurance and scenario.

I'm not sure how backwards compatibility with side loaded apps is going with the Q10/Alpha C.

i know repackaged BAR file for skype (Q10 build) is working ok on the Z10 and is just letterboxed. I'd assume the screen size rendering might cause problems on the smaller 3.1" screen with repackaged APK files going the other way.

Seems most apps for the Z10 will be available for the Q10 (if not already listed in BB World) on release.

It's the waiting that sucks.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Don't have the Skype. Bar file do you?? ;)

The Z10 was my daily driver for two weeks under unusally heavy use, as I am a phone fanatic. My Z10 was from T-Mobile and came with latest firmware, so I never had the poor battery life that earlier adopters faced. I experienced about one random reboot a week, which I didn't consider a deal breaker, though I did take note.

There were no issues with connectivity, in fact, it was excellent. Far superior to the N9 in voice quality, wifi connectivity, data connection due to 4G LTE, and it dropped no calls (but neither does my N9 really).

Performance wise, the Z10 was very snappy and the mobile browser is the fastest I've used, though iOS is close. Sideloaded apps that I tried worked fine and had all features intact, like Netflix, Instagram, etc. Sometimes scrolling is slightly (slightly!) slower because they're Gingerbread apps, but the experience is not far off at all for the ported apps I tried. Tech media usually sensationalizes the 'absence' of these apps on the Z10 and the 'problem' of ported apps way too much given my experience. The app gap is more felt in advanced social media apps available on the majors, top games (I hear), and advanced utilities, like advanced browsers, etc. that may be delayed until BB10 gets the Android 4.1 compatibility update later this year.

One concern I had was that the Z10 can run very hot at times, usually when using the ported apps. Sometimes it seems to be a rogue process. Nobody wants a phone that may have heat-related longevity issues . . . Also, BB10 needs to add APIs that will allow apps to run in the background, it needs a swype-style keyboard option, and in-house programmers to put together a shyte-load of small tweaks unless they intend to open up the OS enough to allow others to tweak it (as they should).

App wise, Skype is a biggie for me, and now that it's around the corner, the Z10 may once again become my daily driver. The 4.1 Android update will be huge for the BB10 crowd, too, though that may not be part of the upcoming upgrade to BB 10.1. But some near-term enhancement to the Android compatibility is probably on the way, given the previewed Skype capabilities.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Probably my next phone, but only (very soon) after my 1st Sailfish phone.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

LOL.
Not worth my blackberry developer sign in :)

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

No worries dude :)

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Hi All users of blackberry Z10.

Did you get your 10.1 update? How is the experience after that?

I am looking to buy this phone as my N9 is dead now.

Can this be used as your regular phone after the update or is it still a beta device?

A quick and detail explantaion of issues still remaing after update will be good as I will try to purchase it today and and its not cheap here.. about 820 dollars.

Cheers

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

I am wondering who is using or developing on this bb10 platform ? using GNU/Linux ?

If it maters I did create a short tutorial on how to mount and share files with it :

http://supportforums.blackberry.com/...erry10general# Tutorial HowTo mount #bb10 dev on #GnuLinux (plz +1)

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

I'm using the 10.2 beta with some tweaks - it gets better and better, for instance the beta has a newer Android 4.2.2 runtime. While the experience feels like a downgrade if you come from N9, it is a good phone.

Re: BlackBerry 10 Launch
 

Appreciate your response.

I bought the phone and as you said the experience feels like a downgrade and I cried for it. More confused now why Nokia killed MeeGo... sad I can't buy another N9 again.

I miss these forums and TMO. Crackberry is a mess or may be I should spend more time to understand it.

Is Z10 is tweakable? I heard it's a close OS and we can't change it much or may be I need to learn a lot about it.

Looking forward for your response.

Cheers