Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Haha I thought that device was long forgotten!

Actually the HTC S740 was one of the inspirations for my keyboard layout.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/4...p3ultimate.png

As I said before, this is what I think is the pinnacle of a hardware keyboard for a ~5in device.
Its function over form at its max.
Keeping the important keys, and hiding the rest as Secondary ones (Activated via Ctrl), and do away with the rest. A small light indicates when Ctrl or the Shift (Caps Lock) is active. The circle at the right is actually a Trackball (think Blackberry) which helps control the cursor with awesome tactile feedback.

All in all, keep everything big, bland, easy to see and type away!

PS That Jolla photo is actually just a render.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I was recently skimming through this & thought it was quite pertinent to this thread...
http://lifehacker.com/should-i-use-a...rak-1447772004
Should we be considering one of the alternative layouts instead of the standard QWERTY?
Seems the debate's not fully settled on whether alternate layouts truly are better WRT: speed/accuracy/comfort.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

You can say that again, its so ugly it will probably make my eyes bleed.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Wow, I dig the idea of the BB trackball! That worked great right? Takes in a lot less space also than the 9 key arrows!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

If you mean those alternaties which are shown in the 2nd and 3rd picture, yes, at least in theory they could be provided as alternatives. Techically it is easy to add the English variant of the Dvorak layout to the choice of layout options, because it would consist of a single component: a variant of the keymat (+ special keyboard driver which can be installed like any application). Other language variants of the Dvorak layout would hardly be feasible, because AFAIK outside North America and UK, Dvorak layout is not popular.

I believe, however, that the other layout options have a lot higher priority. The German Qwertz keymat, Cyrillic (Russian + English) keymat, French Azerty keymat, Spanish/Portuguese/Catalan/Italian Qwerty keymat, Scandinavian Qwerty keymat, Chinese+English keymat, Arabic+English keymat etc. With all of them also English text can be entered easily, but it may be useful to add also the English layout to these options (so that you could find a couple of characters, such as Apostrophe ' in its standard place of the English layout).
It is possible to combine some of these layout options to use the same keymat. For example, with double labels on five letter keys, a special German Qwertz / Scandinavian Qwerty keymat can be made easily, for 7 or more languages. For details, please see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...79#post1381479

I guess that the cost (including all logistic expenses) might be around 110 for big market areas (USA, UK, France, Germany, Spain+Portugal´+Latin America, Italy, Poland, Russia, India, China...), if the OH variants are made with keymats. This is extremely difficult to estimate, because the share of logistic and design expenses depends a lot on how many OHs are sold. For the smallest market areas (Czech, Croatia, Greece, etc, if keymats are made for those languages), the expenses can be a lot more, perhaps more than 200. But these expenses are only theoretical. I'd say that if there is only a single keyboard variable (more or less an "English only" or "English mainly" or "Hacker's keyboard"), the expenses can grow very high (> 160), because the OH simply would not sell in large quantities (exept in USA; UK, India, and in the "hackers" market). So, I see that more than 5 language-specific keyboard options (keymats) must be made available.

In mass production the price of the keymat can be very low, perhaps a couple of Euros - but it is the design and logistics (managing all the product variants, delivery etc) which costs a lot more.

Keymat is a flexible plate of plastic, rubber or silicone which is put on the PCB of the keyboard. The rigid key tops are fixed on the keymat, so that they match with the switching dome below the keymat. Keymat is the standard techinique to make the logistics and manuacturing of optional keyboard variants feasible. The domes and backlight LEDs are soldered to the PCB of the keyboard, and the keymat is a "loose" component, which contains no eletronics. To disperse the light from the LEDs, between the keymat and PCB there can be a transparent plastic plate with holes for the moving key cap and the domes. In theory the keymat could be installed by the OH owner, but (at least when integrated in a phone) its installation in practice would be almost as difficult as the installation of a new battery to N9 or N900. In some phone models there is a grid above the keymat, but there is no grid on the keymat of Nokia 9300 and 9500, for example. AFAIK, the keymats are the logistically easiest and most economical way to deliver the language or country specific keyboard options (and also the most user-friendly, if its installation can be made easily, even if you need a screwdriver to make its installation).

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Okay crazy, trackball is totally possible and not complex to integrate in a keyboard! The only thing is that is not a small component e.g. it will make the keyboard thicker..

What do you guys think, is a trackball preferrable to a arrow-pad?
http://www.randomprocess.ca/wp-conte.../trackball.jpg

This sounds like a great idea! Easy customization for different countries is definitely preferrable. Personally I would like a full metal keyboard, bus for rubber versions this would be perfect!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Trackpad: Definitely! But IMO, from a right-handed person point of view, it would be positioned better on the left. We usually use the left hand as a support hand, while doing stuff with the right. If the trackpad is on the left, this means we can naturally touch the screen, press a button, or even keep on cooking with the right hand, while still being able to scroll or zoom or whatever.

Again, my opinion as a right-handed person. Any left-handed person in the house that cares to comment on this?

Anyway, just an idea! Keep going, this project is awesome! :)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Yes, the design of keyboard could be made easier by putting the pointing device (5-way or 9-way rocker, trackball or perhaps even the 4 arrow keys) on the LEFT end of the keyboard. Such a solution can also help making the keyboard symmetric. The center line between the left and right-thumb halves is between the T-G.B and Y-H-N key columns. This means that there can be, for example, 2 + 5 key columns on the left and 5 + 1 +1 key columns on the right. Here with 2 + 5 columns I mean the "2 keys wide space for the pointing device + modifier keys" + QWERT keys. "5 + 1 + 1" columns mean the YUIOP + Backspace key + 1-key wide margin (perhaps without any keys). Or, if the Backspace is not put on the right side of the P key, there can be a language-localized key, exactly in the same place as on full-size Qwertty keyboards: Å for Scandinavia, Ü for Germany, ´ for Spain+Latin America, etc. The right-thumb end of the keyboard always tends to be too crowderd (2 .. 4 localizable keys, Backspace key, Enter key, Ctrl key, 4 arrow keys,...). By moving the 4 arrow keys to the left-thumb end, there would be enough space for all the essential keys in the right-thumb end.

On the keyboard OH of Jolla there is one more reason to put the pointing device in the lower left-thumb corner. There may be a hole in the upper left-thumb corner. That hole matches with the camera lens, allowing you to photograph thru the hole without sliding out the keyboard. Because the camera in in the middle of the top (left) end of Jolla phone, the hole will become visible in the left-thumb corner of the keyboard when you slide out the keyboard. Because the hole would be close to the Q key, on the left-thumb side of the Q-A-Z key columns is left an empty area, the middle and lower part of which can be used for the pointing device or arrow keys.

I'm right-handed, but I do not mind using the pointing device with my left thumb. Also for phone use I prefer keeping the phone in my left hand: then my better (right) is free to do other tasks while calling: to open a door lock with a key, for example.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

How about sticking the trackball on the reverse side, so you use it with your middle right finger, whilst using your thumbs for typing. The placement could be at an equal distance from the bottom as the camera is to the top, and recessed.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Well, depending on your grip, this could lead to interesting situations on the street :p

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

????? -TL;DR?-

Perhaps leave the whole azerty/qwertz/üä/whatever layout 'till a later stage, because this is a lot of text and way to specific for now.

The LG-G2 has volume buttons on the back and HTC One Max has a fingerprint scanner on the back and I believe this did not get good reviews!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Good idea! Perhaps the trackball or another pointing device on the reverse side of the keyboard OH can be built in its upper part, which remains behind the phone when you slide the keyboard out (downwards). In that place there will be more space than under the keymat and PCB (if the keyboard OH is thinner than 8 mm, for example). You could then use the pointing device with the index or middle finger of your right hand. But can you build a trackball in such a thin keyboard OH? Perhaps a touchpad is more feasible.

Even if there were such an analog pointing device, the four arrow keys would be needed anyway on the keyboard. Or how could you make with a touchpad the same operations as those of Ctrl+Up, Ctrl+Right, for example?

After all, is an analog pointing device needed on the keyboard OH ? After all, there already is the touch screen on the phone. So, a rocker key or four arrow keys on the keyboard OH may be enough.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

My thought exactly, you only beat me in pointing that out... I had a Compaq laptop once that had the trackball on the underside of the display, in the right corner. Funny though it looked it was pretty neat placement for it actually.

On a mobile device sized aroung 5" the logical placement would be stack middle on the back ot the keyboard, accessible with either hand.

It could also be a touchpad area, or an IBM/lenovo type clitmouse.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I'm right handed, so a trackball on the right side means use with my right thumb for better comfort and accuracy.

If you have to use the touchscreen, remove your hand from the trackball.
You won't find yourself needing to touch the screen and trackball together.

Putting the trackball on the back is a bad decision.
Anyone who knows a little bit about these knows how fragile they are.
After a few knocks, they can lose their sensitivity and become frustrating to use.

A clitmouse won't work, unless its on the rear and its very soft and very sensitive.
Again, its something that sticks out/exposed.

I guess a trackpad would work.
You'd need it on the back, since they require more size than a trackball for swiping gestures.
I just prefer trackball on the front over a trackpad on the rear.
There's no replacement for tactile feedback.

Hell, the keys could be mapped so that you can use the keyboard like a gamepad.
Use the trackball as the Dpad/nub,

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Would you mind if on the keyboard there were four arow keys, and a trackpad on its rear (in the middle)?

• Trackpad can be used with the middle finger of either hand
• Trackpad consumes minimum space
• 4 arrow keys are needed for the most accurate cursor movements and shortcuts like Ctrl+Right, Shift+Ctrl+Down, etc (yes, they were easy with a sticky Ctrl or Shift key, or after Shift has been pressed twice for Caps Lock)
• Also trackpad operations could be combined with modifier keys. What about scrolling with trackpad while pressing the Ctrl or Alf key?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

One thing: Is "the other half" able to be larger than the phone? I imagine in some cases such as ideal keyboard you could use half an inch more to have everything in place and still be smaller than an S4 or a Note.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

keep dreaming...

if demo from Czech site (however a Czech site got its hand on a Jolla device) holds there will be hardly more space left for QWERTY kbd then on the N900 :( :mad:

( video (in Czech) view of back is @ 2'56 a few seconds after beginning

wrong alert, this video is a hoax...

• on any other pic (from the rear side) available (incidentally there are very few) the camera is more on the right side
  phonearea has several pics of the back, some with camera in the middle, some on the right... :confused:
• fromt camera lens is towards the left edge (from the front) whereas on pics on the Jolla site it is closers to the “ear set”
• buttons are on the wrong side; all pics & Jolla site are pretty consistent about that :rolleyes:

still, many of the ideas forget to consider the limited height for rows of a slide out landscape QWERTY kbd due to the "hole" needed in any Other Half for the cam lens.
had that problem as well on the thread about hw kbd for N9 when considering using iCrap add-on kbds

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Its a waste of space having 4-arrow cursors on the keyboard... they use much more space than a trackball, and little more than a trackpad.

You could place the trackpad on the rear, save a little bit of space from the trackball.

By the way the keyboard concept is for phones as large as the SGS3/S4.
It seems Jolla phone might be a little too narrow and not quite as wide.

As I said before, Jolla should've used much cheaper components or make it more high-end. Remember how much interest the Ubuntu phone got?

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Do you mean that the hole thru which you shoot video or photos while keeping the keyboard closed, becomes visible if you slide out the keyboard more than about 45%?
I see no problem here. Please don't be ashamed of the hole, let the Qwerty slide out 60% or 70%. If you want that the lens is better protected, you can screw a lens cover or a closeup lens into the hole. Then for ordinary photos, you'd need to slide out the Qwerty. A minor defect is that the hole may "eat out" 1 or 2 keys in the upper left corner of the keyboard. The Esc key of this keyboard, for example. On its left end can still be added a couple of keys, if you move all the keys a bit to the right (to make it more symmetric; its center between the T and Y keys). Then there would be 14 keys in the 3rd row from top, and 6 keys on both sides of the spacebar. But please do not use this Samsung keyboard as a model for the placement of modifier keys.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

NOKIA (very likely) never earned any money w/ Maemo/MeeGo
no option for Jolla

there is a choice to make...

• high-end = high price (with higher margin) but fewer items
• more "everyday" use = lower price (with less margin) but (hopefully) higher volume

NOKIA's "Maemo experiment" is here to prove how wrong the 1st option can be, aiming only at geeks (instead of high-end)
and when they finally made the move to mass market, it was too late
Jolla is picking up there... mass market
90% of the folks @ Jolla were part of the Maemo team; they know all to well they can't afford a niche.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

This is going to be my new signature from now on! :D:D

Oh, the power of taking things out of context ;)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

you would have a point, provided that the "sticks" which attach the kbd to the rest of the phone could be strong / long enough to guaranty stability even when the kbd is fully extended
not really an option here, is it?
if you can't provide stability by anchoring the kbd deeply in the rest of the device you either have to live w/ a shaky construct or limit the distance it slides out
:o

even on the N900 (knows gawd it is thick enough :rolleyes:) the kbd only extends about 40%
[edit]and the camera is in the kbd part, thus it would have been much easier to allow for more slide; why did they go from the confy N810 4+ rows w/ "D-Pad" to the cramped (let's be honest...) N900 3 rows kbd?!?[/edit]

optical construct?
looked into quite a few bluetooth kbd add-ons (mostly for iCrap) for the N9 and they either

• require the kbd to slide out completely (main camera is very close to the edge)
• limit the slide out and simply have a hole

& most of them are rather clunky :eek:

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

In a another comment I reminded about the same fact; the keyboard cannot slide out more than 70%... If you drop the phone, the strain would be really powerful and might break the sliding rails or the "sticks". Or perhaps the fixing between the phone and the OH would open; could it be made intentionally "weak": the OH would become loose if the phone+OH is dropped. But would the strain on the interfacing connector then be too powerful? Anyway, according to the photo in my previous comment, Samsung made a Qwerty which slides out about 70%.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

70%? :confused:
if you want 70% i would go for a E7 / N950 like construct. no idea how strong / durable / shock resistant it is, however :eek:

dropping... how about one of those band, like they come for pens or badges attached to the kbd Other Half and you can have around your neck?!? :D

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

read somewhere today (Jolla twit i think) that the attachment would be like the back cower attachment on the N900, thus plastics "hooks" that click into the main part
strong enough to keep in position, but if the Other Half is too heavy, the hooks will very likely break rather then "unclick" in case of drop / forceful removal :(

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Did the train move or the platform?

Is the keyboard attached to the phone or the other way around?

People keep talking about "the N900 keyboard sliding by 40%", but in fact it is the part with the keyboard that is the base and it is the display that slides out.

It does not matter if the OH is "too heavy", if you hold the whole assembly by the OH. Then it becomes the matter of how heavy the phone is instead.

Having a sliding keyboard on plastic clips like the N900 back cover is a serious concern IMO. It may even be a showstopper, unless they (we?) find a way to bolt it to the main chassis.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Thanks for letting me know. Looks like JollaUsers, edited out the other half's, top & bottom parts of the picture!
Here is the full pic, if anybody is interested!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVP8L32CMAE3mez.png

Then, I would love the keyboard to be "shell" friendly!
Admins would love to have the | (pipe), and > , < (redirection) symbols as a physical key!

If we are running out of keys for characters, we can also have 2 special "modifier" keys, behind the keyboard You know, the place where our index finger would be, when we are thumb typing!
The best example would the L1 & R1 buttons on PS3/PS4 controllers
http://cdn.gidn.net/images/stock/con..._diagram_2.jpg,
With that we should be able to add around 80 more characters!:D

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I love this idea! Which modifiers would you put on the back?

The Xperia Play had this!
http://www.digitaltrends.com/wp-cont...-play-back.jpg

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Well... R and L!! Just kidding, it could be Fn and Ctrl, like in the N900, but if they are done like shoulder buttons.... OMG, the gaming goodness! This would be a dream, really.

Offtopic: gaming

I have actually been thinking about a gamepad possibility lately, and one of the "problems" is the design, specifically how to implement shoulder buttons (and some kind of analog input, now that we mention it) inside an OH. What shape would the buttons have? Do they pivot? Where? How long should the button press go? Taking ideas from Xperia Play...

Now, continuing this line of thought: as I understand from what I've read about how the trackball and the hall sensors work, these trackballs are analog, or at least have different steps so a "semi-analog" (ok, "digital progressive") movement could be extracted (like when d-pads are mapped to either neutral position or max values of a virtual analog joystick). The Jolla is rather big, so the question is now, if there are shoulder buttons, could there also be 2 trackballs in order for this to be an all-around keyboard and light gaming OH? Incidentally, this would also solve any right- or left-handed issues we would have.

Edit: Ok, seems it took too long to write, and you yourself beat me to the Xperia Play reference. Which is in fact nice :D

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

And just a small opinion/addition/suggestion: if the sliding mechanism is durable enough, personally I wouldn't mind if the keyboard covers the camera. This means the lens CAN be protected, unlike with the currently known OHs, and although you have to open the keyboard when you take a picture, this also means possibilities of keyboard shortcuts for camera settings and operation like we have in N900+CSSU. I know, this can also be done with a hole in the keyboard, but I want to point out that not everything about having an open keyboard during camera operation is bad, and it would make the general design (and specially the key layout) much simpler.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Okay, but why not FN and Shift? I would imagine these two as shoulder buttons would make texting a lot faster. Also, I think Shift is used a lot more than ctrl!

I think I'd go for Fn on the left, with more used FN-modified keys on the right. Shift on the right side then.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Hhmmm... Good point. I was thinking "geek" here, with shortcuts and stuff like that, but you are right, in general shift makes more sense.

What about the 2 trackballs? Can it be included with the controller you selected? Is it actually feasible to use them as I proposed? I have very little knowledge about electronics, sorry. I'm a high level software guy, not used to hardware talk.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Off course! Everything is possible! The I2C connector allows for a lot of different functionality! I'ts just that the trackball are not really small components, so it will make the whole thing quite thick!

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Well, there has to be a tradeoff between thickness and ergonomy, because of the already discussed issue that with the Jolla the whole phone is on top and just the keyboard on the bottom. And the shoulder buttons will need some space too.

Edit: Maybe Jolla should release some OH design guidelines before discussing this kind of stuff.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Hi, have you seen this: http://jollatides.com/2013/08/21/jol...s-to-hardware/
AFAIK, the "new design" is still the latest. This was reminded also in the comment of http://jollatides.com/2013/10/21/jol...#comment-11941
In the newest design the main camera seems to be in the middle of the top (when the phone is in portrait orientation).
Well, also I have had difficulties in following what will finally come out from Jolla Ltd, because a large part of the "truth" is based on comments to comments of comments of ... and more or less inofficial videos :rolleyes:
Nevertheless, congratulations to Jolla for getting the Millenium Award! :)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

(New here and first post (just because of this thread))

I checked thru the pages and from what I have seen the Motorola photon q has only been mentioned once, that is a keyboard I think have the most potential.

From my own experience the N900 covers almost all of the things I want to be able to do on it. But if it would have been a 5 row layout instead of 3, plus have the Sym button functionality from the N900, it could fit 52 more symbols (2 rows, each 13 buttons, and the Sym symbols on every button. 2*13*2=52).

That means dedicated number keys plus all of the special symbols we sometimes want to use, (or programmers often use) could be there all the time, not hidden away in some submenu. And ofcourse the Esc key on the left side of the number 1 key.

This would be my dream QWERTY for a phone.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

dedicated number keys! id punch my grandmother in the face for 4 full rows of keys.

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I tought a bit more on how to make the keyboard.

First, I took a look at how other keyboard are done, by looking guides on ifixit. Found interesting things :
The motorola droid 4 has letter printed directly on the rubber : http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Motor...eardown/7759/2
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net...WR1bn5bK.large
The HTC Touch Pro 2 and Samsung Impression uses metal dome for the key contacts :
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/HTC+Touc...acement/5544/1 & http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Samsung+...acement/5727/1

But some other like the Motoral Droid 3 makes direct contact to the printed circuit board : http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Motor...eardown/6108/2
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net...ENFpeI3.medium

A lot of phone are only sliding along the phone, like can be seen on the LG Neon II. A metal plate, large enough to avoid one side slides more than the other, is used.There are also some springs, I am not sure if they are here for sliding back the keyboard, or they can work in both positions :
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/LG+Neon+...cement/11101/2
Same can be seen on the Samsung Rogue, but with 2 separate metal plate, each with two guiding line, and springs that seems to work both way : http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Samsung+...acement/9032/2
http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net...hHBgxma.medium

And some are sliding and lifting, like the n950, e7 or HTC Fortress : http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/HTC+Fort...cement/14366/1


I think for the sliding thing, we should keep the horizontal slide which is simpler mechanically. I is quite easy to do, but involves a lot of very small parts, like the spring assembly.

For the keys, I still don't know what is the easier. The metal domes soldered directly on the pcb with a silicon/rubber board on top of it to materialize the keys is probably the way to go.
The other way would be to have a conductive part on the bottom of the rubber that makes the contact on the PCB when pressed, but I don't see how to do that (at home at least, a supplier must be found to do this).
The silicon/rubber itself is doable at home if you have access to a cnc machine, as it is simple to create a mold and then pour the silicon in it, like shown here : http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch4/
Then the problem would be to have the letter name on it...

Finally, the backlight involve having a material that conduct light selectively to highlight the keys contour and text, but not the rest... For example black painting a translucent material, but not painting the letters.

If there are people that have experience about these things, I think it is time to show up ! ;)

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

Also, when Jolla will disclose the phone drawings, we will be able to state if it is better to put the battery in the keyboard half and not on the phone half, for the stability, for the height and to avoid losing the battery when sliding the keyboard out...

Re: Ideal keyboard design and configuration
 

I still think that the easiest way to go is a cheap resistive touch e-paper screen that presents the keyboard layout, and a layer of transparent keys over that. :-)