Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I think it's in the comments, but OpenMoko looks quite good - arguably better than Hildon.

My point is that Nokia haven't done such a good job with Hildon and the apps on the Nokia - there are a number of mistakes and inconsistencies in the NIT UI to the point where Nokia don't have the right to yet challenge the community to prove they can do it better.

Re: It's over
 

The new 8GB N95 and N81 (announced last week) are all black, and look great - for me, a definite improvement on the original silver/plum N95. From comments I've seen so far elsewhere, the reaction has also been very positive. Maybe Nokia are getting the message... all black is the new grey with silver trim. :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

On Ari's blog, he said I didn't interpret that comment as necessarily relating to Nokia's UI at all, but to open source projects in general. In that regard, I agree with him. I think lack of a well-designed, efficient, and attractive UI is a common complaint of open source projects. I think Ubuntu in particular has made some strides in this area precisely by having a strong central control over the look and feel of the UI. I'm making some really broad generalizations here, but I've seen this argument come up a lot.

That doesn't mean that corporate produced UIs are necessarily any better. I'm sure we can all think of many different examples of a poorly implemented UI that was made worse by the fact that it's closed source and difficult to change.

Re: It's over
 

Holy crap, that's EXACTLY what I need on my N800 right now!
Seriously, that kicks the snot out of what Nokia's done with Hildon on the N800 and they should seriously look at implementing it in future firmware upgrades, even if it's only as a selectable option from the control panel.

THe big problem with Nokia is that when they do try to copy Apple - and the recently disclosed touchscreen Nokia phone and the U.S. flagship stores prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they are desperately trying to copy Apple - they find they can't follow through.
Case in point: the employees at the U.S. flagship stores are phucking *****s when it comes to Nokia phones. When I was in the Chicago store I overheard one of the sales people in there telling a potential customer that the N80 and N95 had wi-fi whereas the iPhone didn't. I walked over and told her that was wrong and that perhaps she should actually do some proper research before spouting off incorrect information to customers. Then I had to show her the wi-fi settings on the phones she was trying to sell.

Now, walk into any Apple store and ask a technical question about an iPod or an iPhone or any of the computers they sell here and you'll get a good answer pronto. The folks there know the products they sell.

And Nokia needs to seriously hire some decent PR flacks that KNOW how to excite and wow a crowd without actually trying. That's what the great Stevie-J does at his keynotes and presentations. Those things are timed down to the minute, well-rehearsed beforehand, and everything is setup and ready to go long before Steve takes the stage. Almost nothing goes wrong during his performance.
If I had ever given a presentation or briefing like OPK does then I'd be out of a job by now. And I work in frickin' government IT where that's considered a tertiary skill at best!
He's the frickin' lead frontman for a global mobile phone (now "computer"?) company and his presentation skills suck!
Just like we expect more from Nokia's devices and software we expect more out of their leadership as well.

Anything is possible now and even the DeLorean is making a comeback.

Re: It's over
 

As a Nokia stockholder I'd love to turn that around - with just a bit more consumerization the N800 could have gotten maybe 3% of the iPod market, instead of .0003%

And don't flame me too bad, cause I do love my N800 ( and 770 ) but have there even *been* significant NIT sales to date?

The ingredients for sucess of the NIT are there, they just have not been mixed properly imho. C'mon Nokia, put some lipstick on this pig!

Re: It's over
 

Does the new model come standard with a flux capacitor? If so I'll take one... money won't be an issue (not after the first trip anyway).

Re: It's over
 

No reason to flame. You're right, IMO.

Re: It's over
 

The reaction to the announced Sprint/Nokia N80x WiMax device will be interesting in light of the iPod Touch launch - sales were never going to be stellar as it's a new service (WiMax) and I'm guessing Sprint is just one of several service providers in any given region, and existing contracts may restrict initial take up to some extent, but comparison of the new device with the iPod/iPhone will be inevitable.

Will consumers see the value in the N80x+WiMax, or will consumers prefer the more limited but more attractive ("cooler") functionality offered by the Touch (and even the iPhone)? Maybe the N80x+Wimax with a decent sized in-box memory card (8GB?) and a new multi-coloured finger friendly UI will stand a fighting chance. :)

Re: It's over
 

Could be worse, it could be a Microsoft product.

Re: It's over
 

Classy! Hot pink and rhinestones... nice (better be careful what I say, it might be popular where Tex is from...*) :)

Haven't Microsoft shut down the Zune business unit yet, or is that announcement scheduled for tomorrow? :)

* I'm referring to the rhinestones...

EDIT: The comments for the Pink Zune article on engadget are quite amusing - great move by Microsoft to launch a special edition Pink Zune on the same day Apple relaunch their entire iPod range... :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I weighed in on this one in a Coffee with ThoughtFix Special Edition video editorial.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

http://www.lucafiligheddu.com/2007/0...okia-n800.html

Future = Google Phone // Asus Eee PC 701 // New iPhone 2008 // and others comes -
more cheaply and also innovatively - Nokia N800 - the projection/lead goes too end - unfortunately

• http://www.viddler.com/explore/atmasphere/videos/53/

Re: It's over
 

You mean Saturn at Alexanderplatz? They also had the 770 and this was my introduction to these devices. Maybe I was the only person who ever bought a NIT there...

Re: It's over
 

The UI Millhouse linked to is needed yesterday - it's (presumably customizable) different appearances would appeal to the fanboys and also to the apple-type user - obviously it's not a simple case of cosmetics but surely canola (which is what, a year old now?) showed the premise worked and really, we all know that however many man-hours something takes can be shortened in timescale by more money for more men (and women)!

And I agree with everyone else who says so - we need concrete information about developments that are ahead - hell, apple don't seem to be too worried about announcing things way up front, why are nokia so cagey? Is this forum really a hotbed of industrial spying? :D

For everyone who wants sales figures for 700/800, how about simply checking the membership numbers of this forum?

I've had both models from almost day one, live in the UK, travel around Europe and have not met one single person who has one or even knew what it was/that it existed. I saw it on sale in Singapore a couple of weeks back, again, no big deal, just an ugly big thing tacked on the end of shelves of great looking phones.

I'm not a Texrat knocker by any means - I reckon he is a genuine enthusiast, you can't deny it. But comments like this really do come across as some kind of internet street-teaming thing, (we get it a lot in the music industry) it's a bit like "you think x's new track is good, just wait 'til you hear y's". It's beginning to grate on me, these hints of "if only you've seen what I've seen" just give me the mental picture of a blind-sided nokia R&D team frantically back-engineering the latest apple product :eek:

Like most people, I only have so much "disposable income (it's called a credit card!). I bought the 800 the very first moment I could. Even if i knew it was three months, six months off, but I knew what the "successors" were, it would make an impact on my future buying plans.

Time for Nokia to finally listen to the limited buyer-base it has got for NITs or lose out I think.

Re: It's over
 

actually...ja!

wow, small world

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

iPod Touch will be excellent device, especially with third party application, which hopefully appear soon thanks to programmers working on iPhone soft. Even lack of BT or mike shouldn't be a problem - they're availlable as extra add-ons for regular iPods already - that's a matter of time when they'll come dedicated for iPod touch I think

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

nice, going to order a 16gb one.

Re: iPod touch - not bad
 

Hey Administrators! Let this guy **ss into some sort of pot and do him a dope test. He is doping his post amount! :D

Re: It's over
 

It is based on Hildon so I really *hope* we will have it on future releases. I dream about it every night ;) jokes apart, I would really like to be able to use the stylus less and my fingers more, and to have a real_(or_almost)_desktop with icons and whatever or a launcher (though I'm using simple launcher but I'd like it to be more customizable).

UI is definitely the part where N800 lacks more at this moment (and, yes, I don't complain about its design :rolleyes: )

Re: It's over
 

Your perception couldn't be more offbase.

Enthusiast? Yes. Blind??? By no means. I am well aware of the tablets' shortcomings and Nokia's missteps, and have acknowledged them over and over again in this forum.

If you want to find blind devotees, look at the rabid Apple fans (a little irony there). If you want more objectivity, pay closer attention to what I write, and try not to apply too much bias.

And I'm sorry if the hints grate on you. Based on the feedback I've received, you're in the minority, and I tend not to pander there. As I've told the few hardcore malcontents here (not saying you are one), if anyone has any trouble with me or what I write, the Ignore feature works very well.

Oh, and I'm nowhere near R&D... unfortunately.

Re: It's over
 

Good God! :eek:

If Microsoft had been smart, they would have made the Zune highly-skinnable so that there was no need to introduce that... thing... just sell skins.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I was initially excited for the Touch - then turned off because it junked the camera and bluetooth and didn't have the Classic's HDD. But the more I think about it, the more I'm not interested.

We know the thing's locked down. So there's no expandable memory. No hope for googleGears or even Firefox. No hope for mososo. No hope for internet apps that Apple doesn't care about: VNC, IRC, ssh, UPnP media streaming (kinda necessary with only a few gig of storage), hell: chat is still up in the air. No hope for generic data sharing. No hope for sync'ing media files however-the-hell-i-want. No hope for expanding media format support. No hope for games; aside from what Apple wants to sell.

It's just... well it's not a very good platform. It's a large and expensive PMP with a browser and not alot of storage. You could softhack the thing to get around some of its limitations, but that's alot of extra work just to put yourself back in the hands of a smaller and newer community.

I've got my gripes about the n800 too, but it has the ability to grow. It has the necessary pieces and the right approach to ensure that it gets better over time.

Honestly, all Nokia needs to do - is get a better camera, better default media player and better UI performance. (GPS wouldn't hurt) Goosed-up overall horsepower would be nice -- I know that's a contentious issue around here, but it's imperative that the UI get faster. The true strength of the touch UI is merely its responsiveness (and the proximity-weighted spelling correction. we seriously need that).

Re: It's over
 

I don't mean any disrespect, but actually, this is one of the few cases where the ignore feature doesn't work. You can't just put everyone on your ignore list once they start reacting to your bait. It puts a damper on any pre-existing discussion. Even this response is proof of this, so I'll keep it brief.

Yes, a good many people may appreciate your "hints," but I for one prefer to focus on current development, not wild speculation based on someone's "I know something you don't know" mantra, especially in the middle of a reasonable discussion. So, do us a favor and post your "hints" in their own posts, so that you don't poison other threads, and so that those of us that don't find it amusing can just ignore the hint threads instead of adding everyone involved to our ignore lists.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

There's been a lot of interesting discussion in this thread certainly, I think Roc has a very interesting post.

There's kind of two things.

1. What can I do with the device? Does it do the things that I want it to do?
2. How is the UI for doing the things that I want?

Well, actually three things.

3. Bang for buck. How much does it cost? Is a great UI worth so and so much more in cash.

(I'm a Nokia employee, just to state again, this is now my personal opinion.)

I think the iPod Touch is great in the department 2., but I'm not too sure about 1. Or 3. I've been playing around with the iPhone now for some time. The UI isn't perfect, but then again nothing is. It delivers a very nice user experience in nearly all the critical fronts. Kudos to Apple.

Well, but then the iPod. I carry my current 30gb iPod around, and use it to listen to music. It's a focused device. Remember everyone praising Apple for creating focused devices? I guess it also does photos and games and something else, but I never use those features. The scrollwheel is quite nice UI for my iPod. It's "good enough".

The Touch isn't really a focused device so much anymore. It's a media device / web device.

But as a web device it's not really a Great web device. There's no email support, no proper chat support, no voip support, no Flash support etc. The browser has a great UI, but its functionality is limited.

As a media device... Well, do I really need to flip and pan the lists with a touchscreen? It doesn't really improve my music listening experience all that much. It has less capacity for a higher price than just the iPod. For videos it has a bigger screen, but "nobody is watching" videos with that size anyway. (Although the Youtube experience is very nice, yes.)

What is between a focused device and a general multipurpose device? A semi-purpose device?

It's increasingly hard to hit the sweet spot of consumers between giving A Couple Of good features in a competitive package. Especially with a closed solution. With an open solution, and with multiple solutions available, the users can make that choice. With the iPod Touch Apple is making that choice for the users. You want to have the browser, photos, videos, contact book (with no email), calculator, clock... and that's it.

The question can be also phrased in this way: why wouldn't I get the iPod classic, or then the iPhone?

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

What I find ironic are all the Apple fanbois over at Engadget babbling on about how they need the iPod Touch to have bluetooth to view the pics from their camera phones on a bigger screen, use BT DUN for web browsing on the move, the possibility of VoIP and A2DP, etc.
Gee, if all those features are "important" to them they why the phuck didn't they use Google or something and get an N800 already?
I'll tell you why....because they AREN'T important to them. They want the Touch thing to do MORE than Apple intends it to do and they will be sorely disappointed with it. THOSE are the people Nokia needs to be selling ITs to.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Gotta agree with ragnar and iball. I'm really thinking the touchscreen for a media player may turn out to be not only overkill but a mistake.

What's so nice about the classic iPod? You can easily navigate features blindly by touch alone. The control is that simple and intuitive. With a touch screen (and here's some irony) you're going to have to look at the device often to navigate. With a computer-class device like the N800 (or similar) that's an expectation and no big deal. With a dedicated media player it just might be.

Again: more hype than practicality in all of this so far. But I'm going to wait-and-see. I have no grudges against Apple or their products and actually hope they do well. If nothing else they certainly inspire and goad other companies...

Re: It's over
 

Bait??? :eek: Another misconception.

Tease? Sure. But I'll take your condemnation into consideration, gnuite. There's never been any intent on my part to bait anyone with hints. Just a little playfulness. And although I'm loathe to pander to a minority, I'm not the ******* you and a few others seem to think. I'll rethink my... baiting. :rolleyes:

Re: It's over
 

I am surprised that no one has picked up on this point.

I lusted after a NIT for a long time, but I only recently bought one when the N770's went on end of life sale. At $400 they were out of the question, at $149 it became a no brainer for me. I suspect there are lots of folks in this category.

I _hope_ that a $299 Touch will force Nokia to announce an N900 (with at least 8 Gb built-in) for a lot less. And do it soon, Nokia needs to compete for this year's Christmas sales.


I think that it needs to be priced at $199 - Nokia must be able to mass build these devices at least as cheaply as Apple.

Don.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I also like the "can it play Doom" comments over there on Engadget.
My N95 plays Quake perfectly, who cares about Doom anymore?
Getting Quake to run on a device is the new standard.
So...who's going to get it to run on the N800? Looking at you, ArnimS. ;)

I have a nice 60GB 5g iPod that usually sits in my car when I'm not loading it up with tunes or changing playlists. I never use the N800 for music or video, I use it for the occasional game but mostly for web browsing and email (Claws mail 3.0) and Skype. Since none of Apple's current or even near-future offerings will do anything of that nature then I'm not buying one.
I would work harder at porting stuff over to the N800 if working with Scratchbox wasn't such a pain-in-the-*ss.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

hey texrat, I wasn't calling YOU blind, I was saying nokia appeared "blind-sided" by Apple, which is a phrase that means something akin to "taken by surprise".

I do actually pay close attention to what you write (one has to in order to read between the lines, no?) - but in this particular case perhaps you should have read my twopenceworth more closely ;)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Don, I highly doubt the N800 successor (or next variant) will be priced that low. Odds are it will be close to the original N800 price. It will have MUCH more functionality than the iPhone or iPod Touch, and I'm not just teasing with that revelation-- it's a safe assumption on anyone's part. There's no way it could be $199 USD. Not and meet the typical expectations of power, performance and usability.

However, I would not be surprised to see the N800's price dropped. I will not speculate on amounts.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Flareup, I re-read your post and I still come away with that same interpretation. Maybe I'm stupid instead of blind.

And the only time there will ever be anything "between the lines" in my posts is when I'm obviously hinting at something. Otherwise, they're meant verbatim.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

All the criticism of the iPod Touch as a semi-purpose device or whatever will be moot when these products fly off the shelves and are the #1 Christmas sales item - and isn't that really the point? Apple are giving people what they want, or alternatively making people believe it's what they need. And quite often, Apple are right on the money - there's not been any significant backlash about the iPhone and it's functionality, and I doubt there'll be a backlash about the Touch once people get it in their sweaty palms and begin to use it, even if it's just to play audio.

The touchscreen and coverflow etc. may be overkill, but it gives the product that "WOW" factor which makes ordinary people automatically buy the damned thing without thinking twice... where is the N800 "WOW" factor? Really, it doesn't have one - from the device design to the UI design there is nothing "WOW" about the N800. Lots of "neat" and "that's nice", but nothing "WOW".

Nokia may be producing good multi-function devices, but they're not very good at selling them - few if anyone knows about them (poor marketing), fewer still want them (no "WOW" factor). And that, surely, is where Nokia need to improve - for all the "faults" and limitations of the Apple products, Apple know how to make people "want" their products, their products literally sell themselves.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Bluetooth support is scheduled for MacOS 10.5, due for release in October. I wouldn't be surprised if Bluetooth A2DP support is then added to the iPhone and iPod Touch (maybe even the Classics?) at the same time as Mac OS 10.5, along with a natty line up of Apple Bluetooth stereo headsets...

Of course, as soon as someone gets an iPod Touch it will be cracked open and the presence (or not) of a CSR (or similar) Bluetooth chip will lay this rumour to rest once and for all. :)

If the Touch does have Bluetooth support, it might become very difficult to resist making a purchase... :( I don't need it of course... I just WANT it. :)

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Hmmm... That would make it more expensive that the Touch and only about $100 less than the cheapest Dell laptop. Not a great price point.

I think it is time for Nokia to eat a lot of margin to get market share.

Don.

FWIW. I recall a story about Raytheon and microwave ovens. Raytheon introduced the 'Radarange' for $2000-$3000. It did not sell well at all. Eventually they solicited some advice from a non-technical consultant. He simply asked ' how big is this thing?' and after he was told that it was about the size of a large breadbox he said that it had to be priced at $500 regardless of what it actually did.

When I look at a hand held device I see about $200 - or less ...

Re: It's over
 

This guy hit the nail on the head... Apple products don't do everything infact you can say they do very little. BUT what it does do it does better than any other product out there.

People whine about oh it's not open source you can't install extra programs on it you can't tweak it... let me tell you this I'm not a hacker, I use the application manager that comes with the N800. I don't use the terminal, I don't have becomeroot installed. Yet some how my skype crashes on launch and I can't fix it I don't know where to find the debug information, I don't even know who to tell. My skype has been broken for 2 months, I've tried reinstalling it but I'll be damned if I have to reinstall the entire os and kill all my apps.

You can say Apple has good marketing Job's is a fantastic magician but you know what his tricks aren't illusions. They're real every feature they mentions it works as advertised.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I hate to say it, but anyone who thinks this new Apple device will not kill the N800 is totally, completely wrong! Most users here are the hacker and enthusiast types. I am not. I am Mr. Average Consumer. I have owned an N779 and a N800 and would buy the Apple device instead of a NIT because even though the N800 theoretically can do more than the Apple, in reality for Mr. Average Consumer the N800 cannot do much at all and doesn't even do things it is supposed to be good at perfectly. Plus, no pda functions, no MS Word compatible word processor, no citrix, no real email. I know everyone always says that is not what the N800 was "meant" for and that it is an Internet Tablet, well guess what folks -Apple's device is going to kick the sh*t out of the N800 as far as browsing is concerned. Oh and using a cell phone with the N800 is no simple task, plus is dog slow so the mobility is not a real advantage for the N800. If Nokia wanted the NIT to survive it needed to make it into something that would really have differentiated it from the Apple device. Nokia will not be able to sell anymore IT devices after the Apple device hits the shelves. R.I.P. N800! It is over.

p.s. The Newton was the best pda ever made, but it died because it was ahead of its time and could not keep up.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

Duh? My Mac certainly has bluetooth support NOW. I've even used it to exchange files with the N800...


Anyway. As to bluetooth support in the iPod touch, the cited pictures have been corrected on the apple site, and the bluetooth symbol removed. So it looks like it was a mistake and the iPod touch will not have bluetooth support, which also means it won't be able to browse the web via a cell phone, support wireless bluetooth headphones, etc...

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I can't just arbitrarily dismiss your points, because they have general merit. $200 does "feel" like a magic number for an upper limit on handheld devices. The problem is that right now no company is going to get the power of the N800's successor down to that price point. Just flat not going to happen any time soon. Not because they won't, but because they can't. Now, if you want to argue that they follow the PS3 or Xbox 360 model and seed the ecosystem while taking a beating on margins, well, you *would* have a point-- except that there was already an ecosystem in place for games... Microsoft, Sony and others have always merely advanced the state-of-the-art rather than really inventing anything new (since the Atari 2600 that is).

Nokia's dilemma is having to create everything: device, core software, much ancillary software, (some) sales channels, etc. There's a chicken-and-egg scenario that prohibits a loss-leader approach that can be made up via software sales-- especially given the Open Source aspect. Now, financial gain can be realized via services, but again, that ecosystem is still too immature. So Nokia really has no choice with this product at this point than to sell it at or near current price levels.

Another point to consider is that price bands do overlap, and consumers generally have no problem with this. True, low-end laptops approach the N800's price but the form factor jumps drmatically. This is where the consumer says, "nice... a significant percentage of laptop power but in a smaller form." Someone like me, and obviously many in this forum, sees the benefit and judges the price overlap to be fair. If the N800 were powered-down to be cheaper, however, even the form factor benefit starts to lose its luster... especially since there are competitors all too willing to fill the void. And along those lines, if the price overlap were truly an issue, Pocket PCs would not be selling.

Sorry for the post length.

Re: iPod Touch (threads merged)
 

I'll bet you my paycheck against yours that you're the one who's wrong.

Different devices. Different markets. Different goals. Totally, completely.

Wanna wager? :D

EDIT: and oh, just so we're perfectly honest here, the iPod Touch lacks the features you bemoan missing in the N800-- so exactly how is it going to "kick the ****" out of it? Especially without Flash? Please. Mark. Think before posting.