Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Isn't Lumiaman also American (more specifically from the US)? I remember some odd Green day references, I'm confused now. Self insults? :confused:


Anyway I think this has derailed pretty badly, it's not even about Nokia anymore let alone its stock price. I think it's time we post on topic again.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I did correct that you were wrong. I just didn't explain the correct definitions mainly because I don't like to write long messages on mobile.

But to prove how much I am in pain, I googled it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compute...2Ftime-sharing

My main issue was that you mixed the terms. Minor point is that, luckily, cooperative multitasking is not probably used in any current operating system.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Doh! I didn't even need to go Googling it--I knew full well but expressed it incorrectly. Having come from an Atari ST (co-op under TOS, pre-emptive under MiNT) and Amiga (pre-emptive) background in my early days, I'm well aware of both but had described them in reverse. You're right and even after you pointed it out, I still didn't notice or catch myself. My points remain standing, though, but you're right--the terms WERE reversed.

You're totally in the right. My bad and my apologies! :) Wish I could grant you some karma points for that.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

The above text is confusing multitasking methods (cooperative, preemptive) with suspending x swapping running software.

On Maemo/MeeGo (like any Linux distribution) a running software can use RAM or swap memory (when there is not enought RAM, but it is a lot slower) and only you decide to close (or stop) running softwares (or if the OS lacks real and virtual RAM, the running processes with less priority will be closed as needed). So you have the freedom to leave any software (with GUI or not) in background, any number of them, for any time you want. With this freedom comes the responsibility : the system can become slow if a lot of swap memory is used, the CPU can hit 100% and the battery will drain, etc.

While Android (or iOS & WP7) decides by itself to suspend running softwares (i.e., so the software is not using CPU cycles, not running in background) to save battery, RAM, etc. The "recent app list" of both Android 4.0 & iOS doesn't show running softwares, just the most recent softwares : some softwares suspended can be there, and some running softwares are not there... For Android, just use SystemPanel software (free & paid versions) which shows a real picture of running, suspended, etc, softwares.

The advantage of Android over iOS and WP7 is that a software can remain in background (without being suspended in normal situations, i.e., if there is enough RAM) if it is separated in a service (so the software is divided in client+server solution). But AFAIK, software services in Android cannot update GUI in background.

Here we can see that Android doesn't have swap memory*, so only real RAM is used. So everytime RAM is low, softwares running in background (including services) are suspended/closed :

So, even the 1 GB of RAM of my Asus Transformer TF-101 seems to be not enough for my usage due to the not real multitasking of Android 4.0 : a web browser with many tabs and a PDF document that I "left open" can sometimes be suspended/closed by the Android OS so the documents/sites are reloaded when I open them again. I have experienced this problem many times. By comparison, doing the same thing on Nokia N9 or even N900 doesn't give any problems of reloaded sites, documents, videos, etc.

(*) : I've seen references of swap memory use on Android for modified ROM's (Cyanogenmod, etc) or swap being enabled. But it seems a vanilla Android is not expected to have swap memory.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Accenture is bringing the hatchet onto the poor Nokian's thrown over to them last year.

Elop just moved them over so that he didn't have to do it himself.

A third of those moved over are being diverted from Symbian. Half of those, 500 people, diverted to Windows Phone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...pe=companyNews

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Nokia also is quitting Research Center in Ruoholahti Helsinki, which used to be place for Maemo and Meego development.

http://www.intomobile.com/2012/05/08...sinki-finland/

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Here's a quote from the two year old link you posted earlier:

If this is true, then it seems there's some asynchronous mechanism for an Android process to request a restart or be kept alive. That's pretty powerful, and if done right, an app could run indefinitely.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Y'all discussing semantics and how Android have afterthought tools to avoid the weaknesses of not having real multitasking. I don't care about this discussion at all. Why? Cause my Android devices keeps stopping my tasks, i.e it'll stop listening for incoming messages in client software. It's not real multitasking. It's not even very good at fast app switching unless you use third party software. Maemo had the upper hand here, and I'm not about to change my opinion on this until MY Android phone does as good a job as MY N900 did to keep MY software running.

Side note: a few months ago a survey showed that Windows 8 was the most-wanted OS for tablets in the general population. Doesn't mean it'll be good, doesn't mean it'll sell... But it does mean it's pretty inaccurate to say that nobody wants it.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Ubuntu Server (for example) can have X Windows, Gnome, Unity, Xfce, etc, installed very easy. Just some "sudo apt-get install" and its done.

Try installing X Windows on Android to run Linux softwares which depend on X11... good luck.

Maemo/MeeGo are "so limited" that many Linux softwares are compiled without problems to Maemo/MeeGo, other need some tweaks in the make process, other need GUI chances, etc. Result : many Linux softwares are available on Maemo/MeeGo which are absent on Android. It is a fact. Just go to Maemo.org Packages Interface and try to find if many of these softwares are or can be available on Android. Answer : no. Android lacks many basic Linux dependencies.

I am the author of Integral, Derivative and Limit for Maemo 4 & 5. You can run Integral by typing "python integral.py" in Windows, Linux, Mac OS and Maemo 4 & 5, using the same Python source code. It is because Maemo 4 & 5 behave like a desktop OS in many aspects (due to X Windows, glibc, Gtk, Qt, etc). I have "Integral.py" for Android and is totally different, specific for Android.

Come on : Ubuntu for Android is a project from Canonical, not commercially available to users, nobody knows the details about it : Linux components users, versions, etc.

Which Android device has now Linux kernel v3.3 ???

Well, Android 4.0.3 9.1.1.21 ICS (from 2 weeks ago) of my Asus Transformer TF-101 has v2.6.39-4 of the Linux kernel. My N9 has v2.6.32.48. My N900 has v2.6.28.10.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I think that NOKIA stock will bottom out. Although I was a believer, I am losing my faith that they can even compete in the hardware department. their specs are inferior to many phones, loose buttons, plastic door that fall apart. Sorry, but I think that Samsung is doing it the right way. They specialized as the harware company and are doing a great job. Apple will ultimately have to choose how they will specialize.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

See the reference from Android projet : yes, a software using a service (so it is divided in client+server way) can run in background without limitations, in theory.

Anyway, from what I knew and I recently learned, the Android (4.0) "multitasking" has the drawbacks :
- the UI of Android "multitasking" is misleading, showing suspended/closed softwares and not showing running softwares : it is just a list of recent used softwares;
- internal Android "multitasking" <> Linux desktop multitasking;
- Android "multitasking" agressively puts softwares in suspended mode (to save battery and CPU use);
- a software using services can be in background without limitations, but it can be cumbersome for the developer to separate the software in client+server, and the service cannot update the UI (user interface). Many Android softwares don't use services so they are suspended arbitrarily;
- to confirm : Android developer documentation assumes there is no swap memory available, so with limited RAM (128MB-1GB RAM nowadays) of Android devices, softwares are simply closed when the RAM is not enough.

iOS & WP7 "Fast App Switching" are a lot worser than Android "multitasking".

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Interesting observations about how Lumia fares in the US and the UK.

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderd...d=yahoobarrons

The article states that Nokia's Lumias do fairly well at AT&T in the US. A different analyst claims that Lumia gets very little love in the UK and by extension in Europe.

I'd say it paints another gloomy picture for WP, Lumia and Nokia. Not succeeding in Europe, being a distant second on AT&T only in the US. How do they do in China? Who will buy the millions of Lumias per quarter necessary to breath some life into Nokia and its Shares?

Nokia's shares are trading around $3.20 on the NYSE, down more than 2.5% for the day.

And sorry for being on topic.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

China won't like closed source WP with NSA-backdoors.
That is why Huawei and China Mobile have joined Tizen Work Group.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I have the same opinion and experience : with the same softwares, documents and sites open in Android 4.0.4 ICS (Asus Transformer TF-101 dual core @ 1 GHz with 1 GB RAM), Nokia N9 (@ 1 GHz with 1 GB RAM), Nokia N900 (@ 600 MHz with 256 MB RAM + 768 MB of swap memory), only on Android I have sometimes softwares closed, web pages reloaded, documents back to the 1st page, videos restarted, etc. It is 10-20% of the cases, but it is very annoying and unpredictable. So I cannot trust Android "multitasking".

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

All this talk about multi-tasking has me wondering... why don't the operating systems that do the better multi-tasking sell the most?

I mean, seriously. Answer that folks. It's like concentrating on a point that the majority of the folks out there - don't be dismissive by stating that you don't care what the masses do/buy, it does affect what is supported, favorite or not.

So with that said... multi-tasking isn't always the most sought out feature. Continue down this semantic-laden conversation; however people are looking for other things than what is important to the majority of us it seems.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

For me Android's multitasking is good enough and also maybe better than "real one" because the many non expert users. Android's one cause of success is that it also try to be a OS for a "common people".

More it bothers me, that there is no POSIX-environment in Android if someone wants to port desktop-Linux-applications to Android. It is not so easy as it was for Maemo. (There is a possibility to install Fedora or Ubuntu on Android though, but it is not the same thing as the applications at least currently do not run as natively as Android-apps.)

Therefore I really hope, there will be a Tizen+Android hybrid, which will have both.

And I do think Android applications are as fast and good as Qt-applications. Qt itself is rather heavy and Java/Dalvik VMs are getting better and better runtime optimizations when there will be more RAM-memory in mobile devices.

http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=345105.352548

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

look at twitter now!! Tomi ahonen debating with 'someone'

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Well, for one thing, the big almighty iSteve reinvented singletasking. If you see a task manager, they blew it.

Nobody ever bought a phone because they heard it had superior multitasking. Also, nobody who haven't had a maemo phone, will ever believe it to be better than Android in any respect.

But the N900 did get a few good reviews for the multitasking.

I quite liked the N900 with it's keyboard and glove support. It had some huge basic flaws, it's not a mass market phone. But with the priority Nokia never gave it, maemo could have become a quite good OS.

Windows phone doesn't seem to be a mass market product yet either...


Tapped on a galaxy tab 10.1. I'd rather have the new note. For the stylus.
...

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I see Nokia talking back to Ahonen as being an exception from their policy on such issues. And there's a bit of discussing semantics there too.

Ahonen is clearly costing Nokia money. We can all agree on that. Also, he is less than objective, which is natural with his background. Third, he clearly hates Elop and does nothing to hide it, to a point where sanity turns to a relative concept. Fourth, he has a very un-diplomatic way of bringing out his message.

Now, back to the reason why he costs Nokia money:

Five: his analyses are pretty much always spot on. A bit of eccentricity doesn't take away his expertise. That's why objective, non-Elop-hating analysts still listen to Tomi's every word even KNOWING the four first points.

If Nokia Spin Division fights back in public like this, they're on a slippery slope. They can discredit him, but it's a high profile fight.

Hopefully, they also take the criticism seriously instead of turning into argument tennis mode.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

If I were Nokia I would try to hire Ahonen now for a small project, maybe $100k. After all he is consultant by profession. He'd have to sign an NDA and would have to stop to blog about Nokia specifics.

Costs less money and energy than to fight him publicly.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I don't think they could get away with that at this point. I think they need to offer him a senior position, and we all understand that's not going to happen under Elop, yes?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

The current twitter convo is looking really bad for Nokia and Ahonen both. Calling Ahonen names without backing up the claim is really weak "social media strategy". It's belittling and, well, amateur hour. On the other hand, Ahonen is so aggressive, it'll hurt his position too.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I'm really not sure that it will hurt Ahonen. He has far less to lose from it and the people who know who he is are far more likely to agree with his sentiments.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/arch...stand?page=all

Interesting post in wired. Highlights:

"Google acknowledged this when it acquired Android in 2005"

Might be popular knowledge, but Android not being Google's own invention doesn't surprise being a hit (with so many betas failed, what they do good is finishing touches on existing concepts, see gmail)

"This is enormously important for Nokia: by the end of this year, Ahonen points out, the Chinese smartphone market will be twice the size of the US market."

US-centric viewers, can we stop the **** now? (to be fair: "Maybe Elop has kissed and made up," says Ahonen, "but my gut instinct is that China will be a bad market for Lumia." is also in the article)

"Today, we have far fewer engineers working on OS plumbing, which is a huge consumer of R&D resource," Elop says. "Let them [Microsoft] build it, and we'll place on top things that differentiate us." Consumers, he adds, really don't care which OS powers their handsets. "[What consumers] want is a handset that offers a faster experience and does the job in fewer steps than other platforms."

Years of bringing OS to usability state accepted by QA (sure WP is far from it) is a huge cost, with 3 platforms being developed at the same time...

"Nokia, which employs 1,600 geographers in its mapping division, offers turn-by-turn driving instructions in 50 languages in 100 countries. Google's competing service, Google Maps with navigation, covers a mere 28 countries and one language -- English."

1600??? wtf

"The Nokia-Microsoft deal resembles an iceberg: nine-tenths of the detail is buried beneath the waterline. According to Elop, the deal is underpinned by two major flows of cash. The first involves "product support payments" from Microsoft to Nokia, the first of which -- worth £150 million -- landed on Nokia's balance sheet in the final quarter of 2011. The second major flow runs in the opposite direction: royalty payments that Nokia makes to Microsoft each time it sells a handset running Windows Phone."

Anti-nokians cheer, this seems like a last nail in the coffin (though ffs, this doesn't make much sense, first we pay you for every handset with our OS, then you???)

"Offloading OS development to Microsoft has saved Nokia a substantial amount of money. But doing this only makes sense if you believe that owning an operating system matters a lot less in the mobile realm than it did in the PC industry. Ben Evans believes that what really matters is getting operators to stock your phones and building up apps. "Nokia and Microsoft don't yet have an app ecosystem," he explains. "But as a developer, if you come to them from Android, it feels great.""

I'd need some comment on that part.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Care to provide the source for that?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

http://mynokiablog.com/2012/05/11/si...a-900-in-cyan/

Nokia should use stuff like this in marketing!

:D

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

What a dive:
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=N...rce=undefined;

-62%

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

They already are doing, woops I meant MicroNokia already doing that. Microsoft is probvadly paying Apple to get some attention on Lumia. And Apple already knows WP is doomed so just take the money and dont care...

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Nokia stock raised a bit today. It must be because people are stupid and thinks Lumia will sell as hell now when Nokia has remove N9 from the homepages...

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Or hopefully because some Chinese or South-Korean company is going to take over Nokia.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Kinda a pain to find on a tab but here you go:

http://www.slashgear.com/ipads-less-...28SlashGear%29

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Time to buy Nokia stock

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Volt,

I followed your signature by mistake. Very cool!

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Out of toilet paper?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I'm going to predict this will not convert to the same marketshare as the survey (that's my prediction which you can come back to), I think once they find out their x86 programs won't run on them most will change their minds. Most the people I know who haven't bought an iPad or Android tablet already say it's because it's not really a productive tool like a laptop so they see no need to.

The general populace is very confused about what a Windows 8 tablet means. To them they envisage an iPad but running their favourite x86 program and few people realise that WoA is going to be different, essentially the same as an iPad. When I tell them that WoA is different they seem puzzled, I then tell them about UMPCs and that these exist already but have poor battery life, they seem intrigued, when I show them my Q1 and tell them I got it in 2006 they look at me in shock and ask me what it is. The poor battery life brings them back down though. What the general public expects is different to what they are going to get. The general public expects it to be an x86 iPad with the same battery performance as an iPad. They expect a work productive iPad with all the apps they are used to seeing on their laptop. They essentially expect something for nothing; a breakthrough with no compromise. They are going to be disappointed.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Thanks.
That's what I suspected:
"The method in which the survey was conducted as well as the survey size were not detailed" :rolleyes:

There seem to be some strange "connections":
"In der Zeit vor Microsoft war Daniel Moschin 8 Jahre im Marketing von Procter & Gamble tätig, sowohl in der Schweiz als auch im europäischen Ausland, gefolgt von 3 Jahren bei der Boston Consulting Group in der Strategieberatung sowie 2 Jahren als General Manager von jobpilot/monster.ch in der Schweiz."
http://www.microsoft.com/switzerland...elMoschin.aspx

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Out of impartial judgment?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

http://pleco.org/heh/irony.jpg
Nokia stock has been performing so spectacularly over the long term (hell, even short-term) enough for you to criticize that he's lacking impartiality for that comment? heh

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

On the topic of iPads and Windows 8 tablets and productivity.

I bought an Android Galaxy Tab thinking it would be a productive tool. I though wrong and it is a mere toy. My old symbian phones are more akin to a productive tool than any Android tablet out there.

It lacks TOO MUCH. Multitask, outlook integration a decent office tool, a lack of a decent Cad app (it has to convert through AutoDesk website, I don't have high speed internet in the middle of a construction site), lack of decent word editing software.

It is but a toy. for games and videos and webbrowsing.


iPad is no different. The lack of multi-tasking just kill it for me.

For example, on Android, If I load a video on Youtube and then decide I need to adjust brightness, I have to go back to home to pull down the notification bar and when I return to browser it just lost my pre-loaded video...... this killed it for me and I got hid of the tablet in 2 weeks.

Now, x86 windows 8 tablets interests me. If the battery life is more than 4 hours, It should be enough for me to be a productive tool. I can use it for the morning, then swap the battery during lunch and use it the rest of the day.

The thing is, it needs grown up software, not kid's apps.

Things like Office, AutoCAD, true Multi-task, true and good file explorer, keyboard support, mouse support, file transfer freedom (it's absurd I need to list this... both Android and iOS need third-party apps to do it....), more than SD memory support (real Hard Drive with multiple tens of gigs) and stuff.



If Nokia launches a x86 win8 tablet I will probably buy it over other makers. If it is just another ARM toy, then I won't bother.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!