Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

You DO realize I pointed out the HANDSPRING TREO (LONG before there was a Palm Treo 650) there WAS a Handspring Treo 180--which pretty much came out about the same time as the Nokia N7650. That's without bringing up the Handspring Visor's wireless data cartridge modem back in 2000.. effectively making it more like today's smartphones (minus the voice) since most people seem to forget that their phones can ALSO make calls. :)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

This is great news that WP is gaining traction. Stock will hit 10 in 2 years. buy it now

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Nokia with Symbian had what? 90% or something of the smartphone market in China. Now that is reduced to zero as WP gets 10%. Better than nothing for sure, but hardly something that will increase stock prices many times over.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

This. I keep seeing references to purchasing a phone, doing stuff with it that renders it no longer an usable phone - such at NITDroid - and then call it a day.

I just don't get it.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Meh, legacy cellular voice calls are overrated.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

So how do you conduct business that requires voice calls?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

He buys a disposable cell phone, duh! Probably one of those throw-away Nokia phones at the 7-Eleven. ;)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

To quote myself:

Oh well, I guess the WP fans could use some 'good news', even if it bores little relation to reality - it works for religion just fine, and I swear to your favorite deity, the WP fans sometimes remind me more of an occult sect than of technophiles, under the assumption they are not being paid to spread the gospel of Metro and the second return of Microsoft, of course...


You DO realize that Nokia had a device with installable apps, voice calls and even a 'full' web browser (quite limited for today's standards, but it still rendered HTML pages of the time) in 1998 - the famous Nokia 9110 - right? Further, in 2000 Nokia released the Nokia 9210 - the first Symbian Nokia phone starting the s80 line, I think, with a color screen, vastly improved web browsing, and all sorts of enhancements - I remember drooling over it when it appeared, but had to settle with the 7650 later on as the 9210 was a too damn expensive for my financial situation back then.

Nokia was quite ahead of the pack in pretty much every area, and they were restless, scared-to-petrification of Microsoft entering the mobile arena and rendering mobile manufacturers into cheap OEMs, or having the giants suffer the IBM fate, enough to push half of their earnings into Symbian development and forge deals with their arch enemies just to keep Microsoft out of the game. Oh, what an ironic fate awaited them just ten years in the future... From a company whose employees almost unanimously shared a deep hatred for Microsoft - of which even the most outlandish Linux zealots could be envious and which I have never seen in any other company/group/whatever - to proper, obedient and well trained Microsoft biaches...

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

SIP or Jingle most of the time. If I'm somewhere where those are unavailable chances are I'm not able to talk anyway, in which case asynchronous communications rule ;-)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I did not realize that. Well said--and it makes it that much more of a shameful and tragic turn of events that Nokia would end up where they are today, then. Well played, Microsoft. Nokia's executives should be spit upon in public and ridiculed in shame for the obvious and overt bad decisions they've made to bring things to this point. The worst of which was to bring Elop onboard and then let Microsoft in the doors as their new masters.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

"legacy" phone calls are just stress anyway. mum calling me to tell me to clean my house. and i do business using my business phone. if i have to do things with people who can't read email. =p

Nokia ****ed up. Word on the street used to be that Nokia had the biggest and best R&D of any company. Problem was, almost nothing from the concepts reached the products. Like car manufacturers nowadays, they strived to make only one major change for every generation, so they can sell next year's model with technology they already have.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

It's not like that at all. Nokia earned lots and lots of money. When you do that, your biggest problem is to put that money into something useful. That something can be purchasing other companies, or it can be used for R&D. The problem is to do that and still maintain focus on your core business. Building and maintaining patent portfolio, like Nokia has done, is an investment for the future. Lots of it may be on the fringes of what practically can be used for phones, but it it's like huge and tall building, you have to build it brick by brick, you cannot cheat.

Nokia R&D did everything right. All the wrongs were done by design teams and poor execution; EDoF camera, too little RAM, no real flagships after the N95, poor Ovi store, no dedicated team of first class programmers to revamp Symbian from the ground (went open source instead) etc etc. All that ended up with the N97, E7 and every other Symbian^3 + device. The only exception was the N8, but that one is also plaged by too little ram and too small battery.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

<crickets chirping>

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

their stock went down again.

2.90 -0.12‎ (-3.97%‎)

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I didn't say that Nokia R&D did anything wrong. I said, or suggested, that the end products didn't reflect the innovation made inhouse. You're listing ways that they didn't reflect the innovation, so basically I think we're somewhat in agreement.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Was a good friday but bad month for Nokia.

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp...YSE:NOK&ntsp=0

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I guess there is some hope for those that have bought Nokia stock recently:

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/24/451...investors.html

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

what a BS. They got nothing legal to hurt Nokia. My position is long, and it will triple in 2 years

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

The fact Elop is one of the biggest shareholders in his ex employer's company (microsoft), and runs a company in which he has no shares, and changes his company's business to benefit that of his ex employer, seems very fishy to me

All 3 of my best friends who all use iPhones said they wanted to get an n9 after only using it once. That's how good the OS is. But of course, they aren't going to get one because Elop killed it

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

That's not a fact, and it hasn't been for quite a long time. Elop liquidated all his shares in Microsoft, don't know how he stands regarding Nokia stock, tho. I am of personal opinion that CEOs, CFOs and BoD members should only be paid in stock options of any given public company - they can live from the dividend if they keep or increase the value of a company they run, and would be directly punished if the value drops. I don't believe in management responsibility if their own arse is not on the line.

Elop and his management team have done so much wrong things that you don't need to pull fictional data or conspiracy theories in order to plainly show their incompetence.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I don't know, their job is to run the business regardless of the stock market. The show must go on even though stocks slide.

It seems to me though that WP7 only is a stop gap solution to WP8. Not to say WP8 will be better. Judging by Windows 8 I don't have high hopes for WP8. But even so, if this is true it explains why Elop is still CEO, and it explains why Nokia would go for WP.

If they succeed, the upside will be extreme, the price could tenfolds in a year or two. They need only to do one single thing:
Make a killer of a phone with PureView running WP8. WP8 have to be void of the nonsense limitations of WP7 though, it has to be similar to Symbian in functionality. There is no doubt in my mind that Nokia is more than capable of making such a phone, but is MS capable of making such an OS?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

It's pretty clear that Microsoft is deviating from the path of supporting as much hardware as possible. It's clear that they are subscribing to the common thinking of "Apple has found the recipe for success" lately, and seem to want more control of all parts from hardware design till software sales. I don't think they care about supporting extreme cases like the 808, I think they want fewer, better known models that can be marketed more directly.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

At the time he announced NOKIA would be abandoning their own operating systems and adopting Microsoft's he was still a very significant shareholder in M$, seventh largest in the world if I remember correctly. It was only when awkward questions started being asked about a conflict of interests he 'sold' his M$ shares.

What's the betting when Elop's finished killing off NOKIA and returns to M$ with NOKIA's IPR Ballmer will gift him back the shares he 'sold' and more besides?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

That's not true. He was selling them but once the deal was announced he was prohibited to sell or buy Nokia or MS shares because of regulations. I would like to know if he still owns any MS shares or if he bought any Nokia shares but the information is hard to come by.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Are you saying it isn't true or that it is true but he couldn't help it?

I could see why he wouldn't want to buy NOKIA shares knowing what he was about to do, as the FT reported at the time:

Investors seemed to agree with Pierre Ferragu, analyst at Bernstein, when he said: "It is hard to see any negatives in the deal for Microsoft, and it is hard to see any positives in the deal for Nokia."

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/87a050ce-3...#axzz1wCQ9wIbS

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

My point is that the conflict of interest was in fact the oppisite, he couldn't sell his MS shares before announing the deal and had to wait. This confilct of interest prevented him from doing so at the time because of insider trading regulations.

It would be interesting to know if he still has any Nokia or MS shares now though. Also, I agree that this was a one sided deal.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

With wp8 times will be hard for nokia. Now it have wp7 exclusivity: he can do what it want. For Wp8 all competitors(sam hp htc lenovo etc) will coming to this markzt. Those are healthier than nokia and will be very strong. Dark times are not finished for nokia. (Sorry for my english).

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I'm sure this has been said before, but i'm worried just how Nokia is going to be able to further itself as a brand and company, given the fact it no longer has it's own OS

Nokia has always been known for innovating - and that's why i've always had so much respect for Nokia

The N9 was an innovation with Swipe - something that was an excellent idea, and should be used on ALL touchscreen phones

In the past, Nokia has had to write their OS's to support such features - but now that they're essentially a hardware maker, their ability to innovate is going to be severely hampered.

Having said that, there IS a possibility that WP8 will be absolutely amazing and blow everyone out of the water. But i highly doubt that - very much so

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Disagree fully here. Nokia was Nokia before any mention of any OS. That's a rather recent addition to their plans and identity; one that's rather easy to remedy/

My time in Africa or Europe... I'd say otherwise. They've been known for reliability. Something that Maemo, MeeGo and now WP7 just do not deliver. Not saying Symbian delivers it either, but other historical phones from Nokia are still in use by folks that have no reason yet to upgrade or do not have the means to do so.

Indeed. But watch Android, BB10 and iOS all pull the best parts of Harmattan into their OS's going forward. Harmattan was before its time. Yet, it failed to garner support from within and without.

I doubt WP8 will bring a lot to the table. And that's knowing full well that WP7 has so much room for improvement.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Need I go in to all the past innovations from Nokia? I'm talking about MAJOR stuff. The first SMS was sent from a Nokia phone, the first camera in a mobile was a nokia one, bluetooth for mobile was nokia, the first smartphone was a nokia phone - the list goes on and on. They have a MASSIVE patent portfolio. I think people fail to realise that Nokia has had such a huge part to play in the innovation sector.

That is my point - look at newer stuff like NFC and Pureview - both features that aren't yet compatible with WP, yet compatible with Symbian

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

It is true that Nokia is well known for having a big and creative R&D platform, biggest amongst smartphone companies. Some of this has now been cut, though, immediately after they lit the platform on fire. It's understandable since they've lately had trouble getting any sales boost from having such a large R&D cost, and it's double understandable since much of their R&D was Symbian-centric, but it's looking more and more short sighted to depend on Microsoft for innovation.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Stocks up today!

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I think that in the 2008 and 2009 Nokia came out as a company with the biggest R&D spending, number of people working in R&D and such - world wide! - taking the Toyota's long-held crown. They had (and still have to some extent) quite formidable R&D centers near every major university grounds and that alone, over the years, granted them their immense IP portfolio. It's quite safe to say that without Nokia the mobile space would be very, very different today, and their efforts and innovations should be looked upon with uttermost respect. But that's all water under the bridge now...

The problem with any actively failing company, especially the one operating in the hi-tech industry, is that the bean counters soon start cutting it based on Excel charts and variable statistics data, with no real vision for the future. It is understandable, tho, as when fiscal problems start to appear an accountant would look upon the data and see that a very big slice of the pie goes to the R&D departments, without getting anything back immediately - and rightfully figure that it has to go until the company stabilizes. When you have current problems, you don't really look that much in the future. But the problem is that once you kill your innovation, you are sentenced to be a follower and to be in the mercy of others. And the others will keep you around for as long as you are useful to them, and not a second more than that.

Nokia, even if they pull out of the dire straits they're in now, will have nothing to offer to top their competition in the future if they let off their biggest talent and kill their future innovations. And they are actively doing just that. All while their competition is grabbing their talent and using them 'against' their former employer. This hurts Nokia far more than immediate loss of sales or the brand value decline - it directly threatens their future. These days everybody and their dog (read it: cheap, low-margin Chinese manufacturers) can create a smartphone like, let's say, the Lumia 900. It really doesn't bring ANYTHING new to the table, far from it. But not everybody can pull the PureView tech - that requires years of R&D with concrete funding and risky outcome, and Nokia used to excel at that which is what was keeping them on the #1 spot. If Nokia continues down this road, even if they survive, in a couple of years they really won't have anything to differentiate from ZTE or Huawei, and they'll eat them for breakfast with low prices. Hell, I'd grab a ZTE-made N9xx-like device rather than Lumia from Nokia even at the same price range, and with ZTE's pricing there would be no contest. I may not be a great fan of Steve Jobs, but he 'saved' Apple and brought it back from the brink of extinction precisely by forcing the bean counters to stay away from the R&D departments - everything else could, and eventually did go, but R&D stayed and created the iPod, then the iPhone, then the iPad... In the hi-tech world you can survive without having your own manufacture, you can survive without having your own retail sales channel, you can survive without having expensive promotions... but you cannot survive without R&D. No tech company survived without that.

In a sense, apart from the major and quite dumb radical strategy shift, Elop has been acting more as a CFO than a CEO - most of his 'work' went onto trimming Nokia as much as he can. And if the m0ronic `burning platforms` memo, and all the hell breaking lose after that, didn't kill Nokia - this forced diet and severe reduction in R&D will. Not immediately - in fact the reports can appear pretty rosy initially after cutting something you've been spending on a lot of money without immediate return - but it will pretty much seal their fate and the chances of having formidable weapons to fight in the future technology wars.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Yearly dividends get posted today right?

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Yes, this is what happens, and it is understandable, but it is far from right. The intention is to stabilize the flow of money by cutting the expenses. The problem is that expenses aren't really cut unless you immediately sack large chunks of the R&D, you quite literally have to let people go, your best people, and lots of them. Often the "cuts" are done by transferring R&D people to other departments that are in lack of people, typically doing market related stuff or some production related stuff. The management can report to the board that they have made large cuts in their expenses and strengthened their market division and production division, all dandy and nice. But what has happened is that R&D is gone and the market and production division has become a mess. They have to let people go there as well, and the ones remaining are the R&D people because they are more valuable when "things get better". By the time the management see what has happened, at least 3/4 of the R&D people has left by their own will.

Maybe a bit exaggerated, but the point is, if you get to the stage where you have to cut the R&D (to stay alive that is), you might as well stop what you are doing, and do something else. It is the last and final symptom of ill management at all levels over a long period of time, the company isn't working anymore.

The company may still come back, but not without restructuring of everything, and with new and better product, and not without financial restructuring either.

Nokia is there, at the rock buttom. Elop is just a tool to grind everything down to make space for the new Nokia, and he is doing a hell of a job actually. It's a messy job, and he will be hated by many, but the job has to be done, or Nokia will not stand a chance of surviving. Is WP the right thing for Nokia? Maybe, maybe not, but it doesn't look very bright at the moment. But then again, all that is needed is one single killer device. WP8+PureView might just be it, time will show. WP7 is definitely not it, thats for sure.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

Surely you are aware that Harmattan was officially killed by Elop instead of given a chance to flourish? This is like bashing a new born on the head and then saying, "Look, I told you this fellow isn't going to be much."

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I agree. If it's good enough to stick the salespeople at the bottom with tying their income to performance, it's got to be good enough for the CEO's at the top, good or bad. Maybe then Elop will feel less like blaming the salespeople for Nokia's blunders.

So then the fair question to ask is... why was he allowed to operate as CEO during that time? How is THAT not a violation of ethics the likes of which the law preventing the sales of said stock was also trying to prevent? (i.e. stock manipulation, outside infiltration from another corporation, etc.).

Appropriately enough, most of the companies you've mentioned have either pulled out completely or greatly minimized their involvement in Windows Phone in general, even WP8. (Also, please don't apologize for your English--some people INTENTIONALLY spell like an obnoxious texting teenager--you have very little to worry about. ...well, unless you go to the tolerance thread where I'll tear into you for it. You know--tolerance and all). :)

H01y cr@p, man! This is a discussion forum, not a place for you to draft your blog or newspaper articles before you publish them! SUMMARIZE. :P Gah! I can't even be bothered to find out whether I agree with you or not or if you had anything to offer. Now--back to picking on people in the tolerance thread... :)

You got THAT much right.
http://cdn-static.cnet.co.uk/i/c/blg...rofit-drop.jpg

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I think you overlooked how I stated that Harmattan didn't garner support from within - which denotes Elop - and without... no updates for Skype yet and other major 3rd party support plain dried up.

There's no need. That massive patent portfolio is not exactly saving Nokia at this very moment - it's postponing what some folks is inevitable. In fact, pretty much nothing is saving them... past innovations are great and all; today they're failing.

So let's see... first SMS message. Great... let's see if Nokia is around in 10 years.

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

I will always have faith in Nokia they will turn themselves around just like Ron Burgundy. :cool:

Re: Let's talk Nokia stock!
 

But that's exactly my point! If Nokia CAN'T innovate, due to them not controlling their OWN OS, then they won't be the company they once were