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Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Quote:

Originally Posted by luca (Post 148715)

I retried with the output redirected to /dev/null (writing to the flash takes its toll on the cpu) and "Osso mcspi" takes 41% cpu, while cx3110x takes 12%. So the cx3110 isn't completely to blame (though 12% isn't that low), but overall wifi takes more than 50% cpu.

wif-fi chip is connected over SPI bus so in fact the cpu taken by OMAP McSPI/0 belongs to cx3110 too. This is known issue and does affect video streaming. Looks like the driver is currently not optimized for transferring lot of data. See discussion here
http://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/cx...ry/000012.html

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benson (Post 148754)

I guess I'd be more concerned with power usage figures on the wifi itself? It uses CPU to drive it, of course, but I expect more of the power is directly consumed.

Yes, that would be my speculation. The existence of bluetooth is largely justified by the fact that it consumes only a small fraction of energy that wifi does.

I've also noticed after using wifi on a Palm TX for a while, the device gets very warm (ie. wasted energy). The device does not heat up for non-wifi use (that is, BT use or hours of navigational use). This suggests the waste is in the wifi radios themselves, not necessarily by way of CPU workload.

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

A lot of the waste related to wi-fi is in how the chipsets handle (or doesn't handle) power saving mode. On the NIT the chip drops to power saving mode after only a few hundred milliseconds, and as most of the data traffic is in bursts anyway it'll stay in power-saving mode most of the time in practice. If you turn it off, or change the timing (which may be necessary for some troublesome routers) your NIT will get warm too, and battery time dramatically reduced.

The SDIO wi-fi card I used to have for my T3 got hot too, and the T3 could only take about 20 minutes of wi-fi on before the battery almost kneeled.

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 147531)

Jgombos, you are comparing apples and oranges when you invoke OpenMoko. Nokia hardware is closed.

OpenMoko demonstrates that these devices can be released w/out closed components. You may be correct in the fact that closure of Nokia's hardware is a hindering factor to releasing an open OS -- but my "complaint" in that regard didn't come with any stipulation that the hardware be simultaneously closed. I would simply consider closed hardware another deficiency to circumvent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 147531)

I don't see that changing. Plus, there were components involved from the outset that had no open source drivers or other means of access.

That's indeed favorable if it's true. It would mean less work for Mamona. But it sounds like BT and wifi are closed drivers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 147531)

Again, going 100% open would have meant that the Nokia tablets available now would not have been deployed.

That may be true, but the connection isn't obvious to me. Certainly Adobe would not have been able to hold the NIT back. Which closed source vendor getting a piece of the action would have caused the show stopper?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 147531)

Also, my statement about the subject being discussed numerous times is 100% correct.

In the absence of a link, I'm not compelled to accept that (since I already tried searching before I introduced the thread).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 147531)

As for flash, the GPL equivalent is a bit behind the commercial, is it not? Either way, that leads to a tangential argument that I won't indulge. It is what it is.

Actually I wasn't referring to an alternative that would access shockwave pages, but an alternate (open) technology altogether: DHTML. It's a red herring anyway, since Flash is not an essential component. I don't believe most linux distros come with flash.. it's generally a separate plugin. Certainly the inclusion on flash in the image is not essential to NIT success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 147531)

EDIT: I find it interesting and ironic that you want increased openness from a commercial manufacturer like Nokia and then express fears of lawsuits over a simple, innocuous device registration. If you examine that dichotomy objectively, isn't the latter paranoia?

The latter would only be paranoia in the absence of commercial players. Since it's a mixed bag, of course the commercial players will look after their interests - we can count on that. Surrender of the mac address was not expressed as a means of "device registration", so no, I don't have a reason to trust their use of the information. Therefore, I will use the windows tool to download images.

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Quote:

Originally Posted by polossatik (Post 148490)

The Nokia tablet is a "form factor experiment" of Nokia, the target of it is not GNU / linux / <insert any other form license> opposite to for example openmoko or GP2X .

That's a good point. I think when someone told me it was open source linux, I mislead myself from there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by polossatik (Post 148490)

The fact that Nokia is trying to make a working business model based on (partial) GPL software is only to be applauded as it will only give more credibility to the opensource/gnu/.... "movement".

From the utilitarian standpoint, yes, this is a very good thing. But the deontologist need not applaud; Nokia is not tossing the GNU community a bone as a favor, they are looking to use the GNU community to add value to their product. And there's nothing wrong with that motivation, but call it what it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by polossatik (Post 148490)

bootnote: I never heard someone not buying a TV because their TV firmware was not "opensource"...

OTOH, if the TV was advertised as open source w/ customizable DVR, and the buyer discovers the DVR API is closed enough that they can't create what they want (a widget to cut out commercials) they might not be as impressed as they were initially.

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgombos (Post 149080)

In the absence of a link, I'm not compelled to accept that (since I already tried searching before I introduced the thread).

I did a quick search, and here's links to a few threads relating to the closed portions of the tablet firmware:

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=11031 - discussion of proprietary kernel modules on the tablets and the GPL compliance of same
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=5613&page=15 - similar discussion with some additional details on which bits of the tablet software are closed
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=11066 - discussion of possibility that Nokia followed in NVIDIA's tracks on binary blobs
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...t=10997&page=2 - discussion of binary blobs in relation to holding up getting Ubuntu Mobile on the tablets

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgombos (Post 149080)

OpenMoko uses binary blob AGPS driver that outputs NMEA for gpsd.

OpenMoko still doesn't even have Wifi.

OpenMoko is still in development and may never see a production run.

So I don't think Nokia should be using OpenMoko as an example of how to do things right. Nokia have been bringing IT's to the market since 2005 with very little closed source material. I sure wouldn't mind if they opened up some of the nokia developed code like the connection manager, but at least the device works.

Update: I also found this on the hardware page.

Quote:

CALYPSO digital baseband
Unfortunately we cannot provide many details on the GSM chipset due to very tight NDAs.

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Even though I mentioned the closed wi-fi driver and other drivers in an earlier posting, I think the _real_ problem, one that actually affects us, is the closedness of important parts of the UI and the provided software.

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgombos (Post 149082)

That's a good point. I think when someone told me it was open source linux, I mislead myself from there.

From the utilitarian standpoint, yes, this is a very good thing. But the deontologist need not applaud; Nokia is not tossing the GNU community a bone as a favor, they are looking to use the GNU community to add value to their product. And there's nothing wrong with that motivation, but call it what it is.

OTOH, if the TV was advertised as open source w/ customizable DVR, and the buyer discovers the DVR API is closed enough that they can't create what they want (a widget to cut out commercials) they might not be as impressed as they were initially.

I strongly disagree with your suggestion that Nokia may be "abusing" the "gnu community" for own profit. The main point of GNU is that it's FREE (not as in free beer). So no-one can complain that anyone is using it "for their own gain" - that's inherent to the whole GNU thing itself.
From the other side the uptake of GNU/Linux by company's like Oracle, IBM , Nokia etc did boost the credibility of GNU/linux as a whole and provoked exposure and investments from big $$ company's, leading to more investments in GNU/opensource and provoking added value to the GNU community itself, which is what the whole GNU thing is about AFAIK.

The whole "stallman GNU ideology" vs the more pragmatic "let's simply get things done" (aka Linus) is nicely documented in the "revolution OS" documentary by the way.

I agree with your TV example, but for example any TV that simply say's "build on/using Linux" does NOT imply that *everything* is "open source" in that system.

Re: Maemo is CSS contaminated (not entirely open)

Hm, what jgombos wrote (included what's in the quote) didn't come over to me at all like you interpret it.. he said ".. and there's nothing wrong with that..", which IMO is quite far from "..your suggestion that Nokia may be 'abusing' the 'gnu community'". Certainly there's nothing else in that quote which supports that.