I would entertain the idea of video calls when the VOIP calls I've attempted don't have a 2 second delay that sounds like "#n3jN$#J$NJ#$NJ#$NJ#$#$# hell #*($ o? #*($*#$&*"

Andrew:
Yes! Exactly! Except smaller and lighter with a bigger screen and easier input. How is that possible? I don't know, that is for Nokia to figure out (though I could offer a number of ideas.)


SD69,
Respectfully, I DO get it. There are only three dimensions of inputs that can be on a single device: Point-like events (points, keypreses), linear information (e.g., sound) and planar information (video). For higher dimensions triangulation and thus multiple, inter-communicating devices are needed. However, a single device should have inputs for all three dimensions of information. If you are not using a camera you may not be using all the information you could be using to optimise your life (whatever that means for you). E.g., If you see a train schedule, do you manually copy it into a note book or take a picture? With faster processors gestures and other pieces of information can become part of your process. There are hundreds of ways that audio and video information can be used in the future, but only if the machines first have the sensors. If no machines have those sensors then no one will write the software that uses them.

Bruce

Respectfully Bruce, no you don't get it. We've been politely hinting that feature creep can be danger for a mobile computing device, but that didn't work so I will try again with your use scenario

It is an Internet Tablet - portable, optimized for viewing web pages, and always connected. So the idea that you would use a camera to capture and store an image of a train schedule is the very anti-thesis of what this device is about. What you are supposed to do is link to the website that includes the train schedule, maybe bookmark the page using less than 1/1000th the memory of an image file. In other words, you don't add imaging hardware, sensors or gobs of memory just to capture and locally store what is already on the Net. Do you get it now??

"I don't know how to do it, but that's for you guys to figure out", but in the real world everything does add size and weight, decreases battery life and involves compromise of some sort. A good product can never emerge if bad choices are made when setting specs.

Should the new version have a camera?
 

Of course I was assuming in my "train schedule" example that the information was NOT on the net. There are lots of examples where needed visual information is not on the net, choose one.

If there were an infinite variety of information sources in our everyday life then it might be useful to choose a few that one would specialize in and then purchase a device limited to one information-type for each of those sources. Otherwise, one might find a device with thousands of sensors (e.g., a camera is a sensor, so is a radio antenna or a microphone), none of which are useful to that person.

But there aren't that many different sources that are important to us. That means that feature creep is finite -- look at MS Word -- it has had no major new features in years. It also means that adding a camera isn't a slippery-slope leading to a 2 kilogram device.

There are just a handful of information streams that are important, but they are all very important in that they can be used to improve/optimize our lives. Now someone may pick one or another and choose not to benefit from its use, but does that mean the rest of the world should also do without its benefit?

That is a pragmatic argument; naming the device "Internet Tablet" and defining that things of that name leave out this or that benefit doesn't really prove anything. If the name "Internet Tablet" were to be definitively accepted as having the meaning "doesn't have a camera" Nokia would respond to pragmatics, as any market-driven entity does, and change the name to something else. I suspect that the name was chosen to highlight the extra benefit that the 770 has over, say, a Treo, rather than to enforce a limitation on future enhancements.

As far as weight goes, as long as you also carry a phone and/or a separate camera you also carry an extra processor, screen, DSP, speaker, microphone, antenna, battery, charger, etc. In other words, including the essential information sources in a single device decreases rather than increases size and weight. And I AM a size/weight hound. I am annoyed that the 770 weighs as much as it does -- it drags in my pant pockets and I find it goofy that the cover weighs 2.5 oz!; I want smaller AND better, and in today's world, that is not only possible, but inevitable! My first camera phone was smaller and lighter than my previous non-camera phone.

Regards,

Bruce

Bruce, do you want it to make coffee, clean your bathroom and control your VCR, too? Or would it be sufficient if it only played hide and seek with your children?

Ha Ha HA!!!
No, the above list is sufficient for me. As I said, there are only a handful of useful information streams in our world; a camera and WiMax are the only NEW items I want.

However, if someday a robot body can be controlled by a computer, cleaning the bathroom, fixing the car, making breakfast... Minor surgery... :o

BL

:rolleyes: Benny: Hahahhah :)

I'm glad to see this hasn't turned into a huge flame war.

Interesting point on 'feature creep'... it puts my concerns into a solid term. A long time ago I had ranted about modularization and how it could apply to the 770. After building a USB power injector, I can see how my feelings were right on the mark (in my world anyway). I don't have a consistent need to have 40GB of storage hooked up to the 770, but if I find myself on a long train/bus/car ride I can plug my MP3 player into it and access a wealth of movies, pictures, mp3s, etc. I also don't always need a keyboard, but now I can plug a mini USB one into it if I need to type something up... which brings me to the most relevant point; If I needed a camera, I would have no problem plugging one in to take a few snaps, or use a real one.

We're violating preferred design principles here as well. A camera is designed for a specific use, the body is shaped to accomodate the hand for the method in which it will be used. The controls are all optimized for the method in which it will be used. Imagine bringing a web browser and wifi onto your digicam. While the reverse (integrating a camera into the 770) isn't as much of a poor fit, but the device still isn't optimized to the task at hand. Nobody knows how many megapixels that camera is though I suspect it's 2 or less and will give us the same crap-tastic grainy quality we get from cell phones. (Barring those 80mp Japanese phones).

Putting too many eggs in one basket (feature creep) can lead to a sacrifice in the overall quality. The increase in cost and the additional components that can break are a sure detractor to potential customers.

What really gets me, is with all of the wants and needs the userbase on this messageboard have been vocal about they add a camera?!

My two cents are this. Give 'er a little more horsepower (enough that it doesn't drive the cost up substantially) and FIX THE OS/APPS.

A slow-as-hell camera app that crashes every two seconds is about as useless as... oh I don't know... a camera?

@Hedgecore: If there's a cam and if it doesnt influence the price a lot, I dont need it but I also don't mind a lot.

Whats worse, as you said, is that they put the camera in and (at least from what we know) did not listen to what users wanted and what would have made sense. I still cannot attach my camera to the 770s USB-port without strange constructs that I'm not willing to carry with me, and there's no indication so far that I will be able to do so with the 880/870.

Fixing connectivity issues should be the main priority, so that each user can enhance his device with what he needs. (BTW: "real" USB support would also mean support for standard USB web cams...)

I agree. People don't realize how important development cycle is to these types of devices, and the 770 in particular. (The latest Nokia E-series phone has a better email app right now than the 770) Oh, a camera is relatively small and light, so adding it is no big deal, they think. All of the man-hours spent figuring out how to integrate it; they could have left the camera on the cell phone and spent that time better on basic HW/SW improvements, better USB support generally and then let users add a webcam if they want.

My other concern is that a camera could be a sort of gimmicky thing to do for advertising to consumers. I hope they haven't changed focus from a mobile, modular, low-cost, open, tablet computing platform, to a mylo-like gadget.

I absolutely agree. If the hardware/software on the new machine is exactly the same as the 770 I probably won't bother to "upgrade" The only major changes that we know about are that it has a camera, SD-card support and is ugly as sin. That by itself is not worth it. USB support, printing support, and better out-of-the-box connectivity are critical. I can't imagine that those items have not been addressed, but I could be wrong.

I am optimistic. It is certainly possible because, basically, the 770 is a heavy Treo with Linux and a better screen but no keyboard/phone/camera. Have you noticed that the 770 screen would fit on a Treo if they removed that god-awful keyboard? But Treo is smaller and lighter.

There are rumors in the Palm community that Palm's next OS will be Linux. Perhaps they will choose Maemo!