maemo.org - Talk - Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

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Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535930)

Texrat: a gift? By whom? Like what?

More: I understand Valerio's point that karmas are useful in communities. This is why I proposed a karma system for maemo.org in 2007 and this is why I'm still noting that most of the tools we are using in maemo.org and will use in meego.com have traditions of karma generation.

But then, in maemo.org karma has got always some (strong?) relation with the expectation of getting a free / discounted / loan device. This is something that generate uncomfortable, distorted or even childish situations. You have seen it and I have seen it to the extreme.

In MeeGo, with more device vendors and a higher potential to have a bigger community, this combination can get really uncomfortable, distorting and perhaps even more childish.

This goes again back to the karma per tool but without mixing tools and karma values. If I love bug reporting I see the incentive and usefulness of having a senior rank in Bugzilla. If I'm into open source development I see the point of Ohloh statistics putting me near the top of the crop. If I'm into forum discussions then I see the incentive of being distinguished as a senior commenter.

But... what is the point of mixing all these stats, in a single and quite arbitrary value? Please answer.

What is the message? That I am more contributor than you because I'm lucky that blogging is overrated compared to app downloads or git commits? Please answer.

What is the final purpose? Is it the distribution of devices as an incentive or is it something more. Please answer.

I don't want to define gift (award). I was using it in a very broad sense anyway. But if you like, pick any term that also includes earned qualifications like standing for council, etc. Right in line with Valerio's remarks (which I thought were in line with mine, but maybe that's not obvious based on difference in reception).

I understand the teeth-gritting over childishness and wish there was an easy answer. This community has been a victim of its own popularity and with that comes a broad spectrum of participants, mature and immature. There is no simple solution to that. But I think overall competition is good.

Mixing (Normalizing) stats becomes necessary IMO for cross-functional people, or those who steadily grow into higher responsibilities. But maybe you have an answer already for that?

Zero recognition will come with its own problems, so I doubt anyone is advocating that extreme. But no matter what yardstick is used, or how its divided, we have to take the bad wth the good. Best we can do is try to minimize the bad.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguinbait (Post 535918)

Everyone earns some amounts of Karma regularly, but they can only give them to others.

Alright, this would mean that aside of the bugzilla karma, wiki karma, git karma and whatnot karma you would have a pure "community karma" based on votes received from your peers.

Looks like something in the lines of http://drupal.org/project/user_karma

Again, that would be another interesting and concrete metric: community appreciation.

What I still don't see at all is the usefulness of an absolute karma value targeted, explicitely or not, to get new devices in special conditions.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535961)

What I still don't see at all is the usefulness of an absolute karma value targeted, explicitely or not, to get new devices in special conditions.

I don't see anyone in THIS thread pushing for that...

:confused:

EDIT

Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535961)

Again, that would be another interesting and concrete metric: community appreciation.

We have that, to an extent, with karma from Thanks.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 535964)

I don't see anyone in THIS thread pushing for that...

:confused:

EDIT

We have that, to an extent, with karma from Thanks.

I'm not saying that karma promoters push that idea. I'm only saying that chances are that a strong focus on karma leads to this uncomfortable, distorting and sometimes childish side effect. I have seen it more often than wished in maemo.org and I wouldn't feel proud if These patterns show up in MeeGo around "our" concept of karma.

And I think it's unavoidable. Whatever elements brought this side effect to maemo.org are only multiplied in MeeGo.

PS: Thanks buttons reward forum contributors. There is no thanks button in e.g. Bugzilla.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

Sorry for posting so much but this is a subject I have strong feelings about and I'm close to going to bed anyway so you can do without me a while. ;)

First let's talk more about karma normalization.

Currently we have various formulae that attempt to find balance between various activities. I've said before and will say again that's an admirable goal but one I now believe to be flawed and more work than it's worth.

When I made those points recently someone tried to equate karma to the real world and claimed it failed. I believe that sentiment was also flawed and here's why.

In real life we are paid based on various factors, chief among them what some entity deems the labor to be worth (per region). No one involved in this human value benchmarking seems overly concerned with how much a dogcatcher makes compared to an investment banker. Instead, they rationalize the pay solely on the merits of the labor and its perceived return to the payee.

No one charges the dogcatcher any less for a hamburger at the deli. He pays the same as the banker.

I think we should look at karma the same way. Rationalize it within the sphere of the activity itself, and then be done with it. We could look at it in terms of ratio: effort expended to perceived return. That should actually work out in the long run-- assuming simple and sane formulae can be determined.

This is the sort of normalization I would prefer.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535977)

PS: Thanks buttons reward forum contributors. There is no thanks button in e.g. Bugzilla.

Understood. I was not suggesting that Thanks is the only answer, just commenting.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

In real life, paid job is one of the activities of the day. It is already complicated to abstract and compare the value of the work of a teacher and a bus driver. But true, you can compare salaries at the end.

But at least nobody (I'm aware of) attempts to create an overall social karma metric that evaluates my citizen value based on my work... plus my family activities plus my computer hobbies plus my sport performance...

And this is exactly my point against a unique karma rank like the one shown at http://maemo.org/profile%20/list/ - note that the sublists on the right are actually much more illustrative in its own context.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

I'm not talking at all about a "citizen value". And I was actually trying to get away from "comparing salaries". But maybe I tried so hard to be objective and soar at the 10,000 foot level that my meaning is unclear. :(

Anyway my brain is tired from battling software issues at work all day so it's time for me to leave the debating to others more able. I appear to be coming up short.

EDIT: and Quim-- I hope you understand you have a built-in pent-up karma offering just for showing up. That's not meant to diminish your high score and ratio (:D) but just putting it into perspective.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qgil (Post 535930)

But... what is the point of mixing all these stats, in a single and quite arbitrary value? Please answer.

Let's not then? Let's translate the existing maemo.org karma interface, but only give raw numbers. Instead of assigning a certain value to each individual item, let's just throw the numbers up there for the overview. How many bugs have you filed? How many posts have you made? etc.

We still have the top lists for each category, but no overall number. Comparisons within each category are generally pretty valid but if we make no attempt to assign value to each type of contribution then much of the contention goes out the window.

Re: Pushing the maemo.org karma concept to meego.com?

would it not be better to keep forum karma separate from other kinds use it towards a forum rank system instead, like 1000 karma gets meego general status or whatever.
if theres any developer programs just say top X amount qualify from forum and look at any special cases that may be deserving too but the majority go to the other part of the site where karma is really deserved.
maemo.org talk karma is over inflated and makes up too much of the overall, look at me for example already have over 200 from T.M.O which would of qualified me for last device discount program even though i'm undeserving.