Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

Awesome link, too bad its Android. Still - Gionee is interesting.
.
Yes, the last road vehicle I ever owned and liked
was a 1963 Toyota Landcruiser (back in 1983, mind you).
It was as rough as anything on the road back then,
but I could disassemble it with almost any decent toolset.
Some screwdrivers, a few wrenches and allen keys
and a decent socket set and you could fix anything that ailed.
.
Contrast that to what they sell these days,
where the manufacturer goes to some special kind of hell
to make it impossible for the owner to do anything more
serious than simply change the oil.
.
That is a big reason I just don't participate in the road vehicle market anymore.
(They do have some interesting stuff on the Indian market,
but nothing street legal for almost anywhere else on the planet.)
.
My wife and I just walked past the Maserati shop this evening
and she asked me if I wanted one
- just the thought of trying to do anything
with one made me cringe.
.
We can fix an N900, I have opened up all three of mine
and taken one of them down to the PCB skin.
Contrast that to most of the rubbish you see today.
.
I am not very happy with keyboards the kludge they are,
but being able to intercept the boot process is almost priceless.
A bluetooth attached keyboard cannot do that.
.
For a keyboard I can wait.
- I have a growing collection of dead-end
gear but I am getting closer enough to see a glimmer :D
of something interesting already on my horizon.

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

perhaps ...for now.
What happens when Android ends up getting rooting locked down...and impossible to hack your own device?
which is coming BTW...
what happens to Sailfish on Android then?
or any OS on Android then....for that matter.
or any kind of personal choice as to what you want to do with your Android device.
I think the whole happy lil' Android hacking community will be stuck ...and will simply implode...
best bet then ...if you want a hackable Android...any control over your own device at all ...
I imagine Replicant will become quite popular indeed... when rooting joy-joy ends for Android.

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

Sources please, not just speculation & frightening children...

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

here is the conversation going on concerning...

http://www.xda-developers.com/androi...id-l-lockdown/

https://plus.google.com/+Chainfire/posts/VxjfYJnZAXP

http://forums.androidcentral.com/sam...ht-ending.html

http://www.androidpolice.com/2014/05...to-root-users/

Already Android OTA updates remove/ break root ....for "security"....making it either a minor pain to fix or a major week to month(s) long headache depending on the device...

This isn't "by accident" this is a deliberate step in a deliberate direction.
I don't think this is fear mongering, it is simply stating what is happening right now...and seeing the logical natural outcome.
Like letting go of an apple...gravity takes over...it falls

The point is root lockdown for Android is coming and most likely bootloader with it...it is an obvious next conclusion.
1- Android is courting Big Business now.
2- Android is courting Governments now.
both want security assurances.
and to just be an additional pain in the butt ...the device manufacturers want not just the root priv. locked down but the bootloader as well...Motorola...is one company example pushing hard. It's all about business...about liability.

So it only stands to reason...if you are a ...say a major banking institution...and you want to provide your clients with the latest easy apps for immediate-unrestrained-anywhere one-swipe access to their funds ....who are you going to look to?
It's about THEIR liability (same goes for the retailers you are using the banking app with..) how safe and secure the client is...perpetual media stories of "so-and-so had all their records stolen/ rifled through/ passwords or personal client account info compromised..." does not instill confidence, stock stability, etc..the reverse it can destroy companies...

A- The device and os which is totally clamped down...no one can change/ alter/ hack/ to put un/ knowingly a compromising "bit" into.

OR:

B- the device which is wide open...
hackable and compromised from the get go... .
Or even just undermine the device/ os security enough that it shows to the world an access to an exploitable vulnerability?
Or worse, the device un/knowingly turned into a tool of invasive exploitation or infection against other devices it communicates with?

From a business and liability perspective...you go with the safest and most secure system....for you , your shareholders, your stocks stability, and your clients.
BB back in the day...
Loved old back-in-the-day BB.
was a freakin' brick wall.
It was their strong point.
For secure business and comm. I'd trust that...or something like it today...nothing can be installed or altered that hasn't been screened 1st.

But for freedom and choice...real choice...for me it's maemo and linux.
that freedom means I can write good or malignant programs and install them...use them..it's about knowing what is socially acceptable and what is right too.
All that is taken away when the choice is taken with it.
Governments and Big Business don't want to "hope" we'll all do the right thing.
"Hoping" has been a mixed bag of profitable successes and very expensive liability and security-compromised failures... too expensive so far...I'm sure they would like to see only successes.
They want to "know" we'll do the right thing.
And that means the freedom to choose goes with it..
It makes sense...handheld pocketable very very powerful devices now on the verge of competing directly with laptop and desktop computing power hell...with octocores and greater being developed...come at us now yearly...hell every six months or less now.. at an ever alarming speed and increased power and ability...EVERYONE having one...with the ability to connect to just about everything...
Standing back a step and looking at the big picture ...we can now potentially tamper with serious stuff ..while we sit on the bus..on a park bench...flat out that is pretty scary.

So yeah...big picture-wise...it strikes me as a foregone that as the devices become more interconnected and powerful...the natural conclusion is to start locking things down for the safety of the public good.

Anyway...I see it coming like an obvious next step...for Android.
Thing is ...let's say it does get it's bootloader and root locked down.
I'm curious...are there any examples of linux os's that are like that?
So chained? Is it even technically part of the family anymore?

So ...come the next few years we'll see what devices sporting android are even able to have an alternate os on them.
Nexus (so far from what I've studied )...seems determined to hold out..
Addendum...
It ain't like I got a hate on for Android BTW.
I believed there was alot of promise back in the day...
Personally I've enjoyed pissin' around with Nitdroid...and the like.
I just am beginning to think more and more that the real open future of Android doesn't belong with Android anymore...

as I like to muck about...
I don't say Repli-can't...I say Repli-can (:D)

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

Thanks, interesting reading. I have to admit I was not aware of that.


Well up to now it's just affecting device rooting. (and I could not care less about that, have no need to have root on android devices I do not have :p)
I am not so sure it follows that bootlockers will be locked, though. No special profit in that whether the OS is locked or not IMHO.
This would affect me a lot more, since it directly affects my ability to iinstall sensible OS'ses to my devices.


Nope, on this I have to disagree and fortunately I am in the position to know a little bit about these things too :)
System security always depends on the defending end to keep its guards up. There's no excuse to slack on security on the pretext that "we have locked away all the bad guys, no worries now"
Anyone doing that will deserve what's coming to them. And they will be fired too, yes.
Remember, if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.


I am fairly sure it will not go to that, partly due to tha fact that androidisky peoples need rootz.
If the devices start to become too much like apples&windowses, I believe users will move to the not-yet-locked-androids, and the device manufacturers pretty quick revert their evil designs. :)

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

Some good points there, endso. The only nit I would like to pick is this:

You see, I don't think at all it is security they want. No, sir. It is control. Yes, they may try to sell it as security to the masses but that's about it.

Juice has touched upon it too. A locked OS or bootloader will not protect your bank emails or details. Those are dealt with at the application layer anyway. XKCD has expressed it the best:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/authorization.png

BTW, I like Juice's upbeat conclusion but I am not that optimistic. Just look at how many people - and, even more confusingly, companies, who have vested interest in wanting security and trained IT professionals to maintain it for them - use Windows on their computers and iOS on their phones.

As far as masses are concerned, they usually do not even care about such things. As long as they can choose from 500 fart apps and run Whatapp, whatever that is.

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

Funny... What about N900 brick, then? Ok, ok, N900 has more rounded corners :-)
That's the question. I have heard that it is possible to flash a different version of BlackBerry OS to a BlackBerry device (like an upgrade), but is it possible to flash an entirely different Operating System? And if yes, then is there a tool-chain or something to compile Nemo Mobile for BlackBerry device?
Well, BlackBerry's keyboard allows to make gestures without obscuring the display. That invisible finger has to count for something. Besides, BlackBerry Passport already crams in a lot of pixels with its 400+ ppi.
Then suggest some new way of input :-) If a manufacturer likes it, they may possibly incorporate it into a new model.
Just put it the other way around: "valuable" touch screen, covering whole surface of device, with virtual keyboard always open (no need to tap the textbox until the device finally concedes that you need the keyboard), and with realistic feeling of the buttons on the virtual keyboard (as in, you know when button is pressed; you do not have to look up to the display all the time to see where the misprint happened, you can just type blindly).

Maybe, they could have done it differently. Maybe, they could have made the plastic keyboard buttons absolutely transparent (instead of black), and put a part of LCD display below it, to make switching between different keyboard layouts easier-more-visible. Question is, how do you imagine transparent steel dome? Mounted within a transparent dome array? Alright, alright, white plastic of dome array can probably be made transparent, too. But steel dome, what would you do with it?
http://www.snaptron.com/wp-content/u...1/series-p.jpg
http://www.snaptron.com/wp-content/u...ndard-PNP1.jpg

Disclaimer: I do not know how, physically, keyboard+touchpad in BlackBerry Passport works. But I do enjoy the novel approach to the problem.

Best wishes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Per aspera ad astra...

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

I trade all of it for normal, blind-write friendly keyboard - with bindable layers, that don't even require switching layouts - preferably as easy to repair/replace as N900's one is, any day. Thanks.

BTW - N900 is only device with 38 buttons, where I'm able to bind whole set of "big" keyboards buttons and NEVER, ever bother with changing layouts. Some claim that zaurus things were able to do it, too. No surprise to see that pitiful look on my face, when people talk about "alternate input methods" instead of real keyboard, on the things that are meant to provide desktop PC functionality on the go, eh?

/Estel

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

You have an exquisitely correct perspective:
I deal with this daily where I live and work: :mad:
the security threats are deemed to be everywhere
- each and every deviant visible must be approached,
confronted aggressively to incite any hidden dormant rebellion,
and the parties associated with such deviations exiled from public.
The problem is they come after you based on things like
the color of your skin, your choice in clothing, how you walk,
and all sorts of things that have absolutely zip to do
with being a threat to society.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b3...bucksGuard.jpg
The excuse that there are threats is used and inflated
to justify AK-47 armed guards being posted at the entry
to coffeeshops, metal detector/handbag xrays in every shopping mall.
http://thegimleteye.com/wp-content/u...26-225x300.jpg
I, and all my co-workers, go through airport-level security theater
many times -each day- just going to work and lunch, and whatnot.
.
This is why I prefer to have an n900, as opposed to a laptop,
which always involves a stripdown.
http://citizensvoice.com/polopoly_fs.../695860602.jpg
The whole thing is spinning insanely into an Orwellian wet dream.
The security theater was never about dealing with threats.
It is a collusion being not very decent people on opposite sides
of political idealogies agreeing on a scheme to divy up the
masses so that they end up controlling large swathes of people.
x
And this philosophy leaks down like overflowing septic tank on stilts.
(not a joke in any sense - this is a very common site here)
x
We can see this in things like drug-testing and all sorts
of employer behaviour. :rolleyes:
x
And one of the biggest threats to device security is a keyboard.
http://neo900.org/static/neo900-t.png
They can have my keyboard when they pry it out of my cold
dead mannequin they find when they come looking for me.
I will be very elsewhere at that moment. :cool:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2526/...d175962d_m.jpg
{/service hyper-paranoia restart}
Sorry about any missing images, I am shameless about that :D

Re: Have we seen the last device with real keyboard...
 

Heh...

Well, with this kind of security theater, it's not wonder that people "joke" that the cheapest (for house owner) and most secure way to protect your house from thieves (in absence of house owner) is to have terrorist paraphernalia clearly visible everywhere. Then the anti-terrorist forces will have the house on 24/7 surveillance; and any sane thief will not touch the house, not even with 100-foot stick.

Best wishes.