Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Why do you think the tablets are open (unlike Apple)? If you want something, go ahead and make it or pay someone else to do it. Things aren't perfect, but they're better than you think. They've promised us support for the N800 for at least the next two major Maemo versions. They continue to support the 770 by paying people to work on it even though there's no profit to be made from it (2007 HE). They keep putting out newer applications like Video Center.

And besides, it's not like Nokia dropping support for an older tablet makes it suddenly useless like you seem to think. It's not like Nokia announces that the 770 is no longer supported and you just can't use it anymore.

Nokia's shown me with the N800 that they are interested in catering to people like me and they're showing that they are interested in improving upon their previous work. I have no doubt it'll be the same with the next tablet and I'll happily give them my money for it.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

This is exciting news indeed! Great work ThoughtFix.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Steady on, earl! ;)

Bo11ox, quite frankly.

Good luck getting Mac OS X 10.4 (or later) to run on any Apple G3 or G4 powered kit, or even late model G5s. The OS won't install, even though the kit may be capable of running the OS. Why? Because Apple prevent the OS installing on their old hardware - it's intentional and somewhat cynical. To me this makes Apple far worse than Nokia, although in fairness to Nokia they did at least have a change of heart and extended 770 OS support after considering the community response.

Comparing Apple with Nokia is not always a good basis for an argument. :)

Support for the N800 and also 770 will continue once this new device is launched - that's been stated by Nokia already. Getting all bent out of shape because a consumer electronics company releases a new device n months after you bought the last model is just fcking stupid - it's a fact of life. Get used to it. If you don't like it, don't ever buy anything and keep waiting for the next new device that's "just around the corner".

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

I know this is a bit off-topic, and I don't intend to inflame or cause any hostility, but I have 10.4.10 running just fine on an old 400Mhz G3 (no effort at all, installed fine), and you can install some versions on unsupported systems using XPostFacto to side-step the limitation of the OS.

If you consider the fact that the B&W G3 was released in 1999, I'd say Apple's support for 8 year old hardware in their current OS is pretty good. I don't see how an OS release like 10.5 removing support for hardware almost a decade old would be unreasonable, even 5 years is still a good range.

I think the comparison is, as you say, not a good basis for an argument.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Milhouse, it costs you credibility to say that 10.4 won't run on old hardware. I have it on a G4 and my wife has it on one of the very first G5s. Studies show that people run Apple computers longer, on average, than Windows computers. So it's likely that other people will call you on this. When you say something so easily disproven, prefaced with "Bollox!" it just makes me discount other things you say.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

I feel your pain earl00, and if you would of asked me just a few months ago I would of said the same thing (and I probably did) now comes the "but" after using the IT for nearly a year now I can certainly see the reasons for a new IT. I, like you and many others either don't necessarily have the "expendable" cash to be able to stay on the bleeding edge, but weather we admit it or not the IT/UMPC market is exactly that. You brought up the Apple comparison, and thats always a tough comparison, as is most apple to oranges comparisons, it seems apple brings out "updated" devices about every 3-6 months and as I and others have pointed out even when the next IT is available our 770s and 800s by no means will become un-usable or obsolete, (as is with most apple devices) they just won't have the same usability or functions as the new one. Being on the bleeding edge certainly has it's ups and downs I've wanted an inexpensive tablet/UMPC/hand held device for years but haven't had the cash for such a device until the Nokia IT came about (and I became aware of). Is this device perfect or the end all of HH devices well that just depends on what you are expecting out of the device when you bought it. I think the longer you have and use this device you "want and wish" it did more, or wish that it did certain things better, and this comes back to why or what reasons you bought the device in the first place. I personally do not have an ipod/PMP, PDA, smartphone or a laptop so the IT for me fills in a huge gap and for the money I don't see how you could go wrong. Do I think it did certain things better like playing imbedded media within a webpage, playing of all/"other" forms of media files within a single or built-in player, viewing or compatibilty of certain web pages, and so on and so on etc. yeh but this and other things all come back to why you bought it what you're expectations were going into it. What Nokia has developed and mfg. with this device and then with what 3rd party's have done with it are quite amazing, and the support from Nokia to those 3rd party's is amazing as well given the time they brought out this device could it be better or faster that'll always be up for debate and you have to consider many apps and software for this device were never thought of or even considered by Nokia themselves how could they, and at the very least Nokia isn't out there suing every one in sight for trying to do things with the IT it never thought of or even thought possible. So is this device perfect or has Nokia's support been perfect no but it's surely trying and at least listening to their users and thats more then I can say of most other dev's and mfg's out there. Just look at the evolution of software and hardware from the 770, 800 and the purposed next IT, all within what 2 years or so.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

I, for one, am extremely satisfied with both my two 770s and my N800. Nokia has already stated that they will not be dropping software support for the N800 for at least two more whole-number revisions.

Also, crazies need to learn how to use paragraphs.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Oh ********, G3s and G4s 800mhz and slower will not be able to install 10.5. Apple doesn't believe that these machines will be able to provide the user with a decent computing experience with the new OS (mostly due to the implementation of more and more graphics-accelerated APIs like Core Image). It's not like it's particularly difficult to workaround those blocks, in any case.

As an owner of several generations of Macintosh computers from a 333mhz iMac to one of those "late model G5s" you speak of, I can attest to the fact that 10.4 installs and runs perfectly fine on all of them, and 10.5 will work perfectly fine on both my G5 and my Quicksilver G4 (if not the iMac, but that's far-gone enough to be unpleasant to use these days). If you're going to argue against Apple, you might as well get the facts straight.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

To an extent, sure, but I still feel too many people must be expecting desktop performance from these tiny things, based on comments. That convergence is a while away... maybe never.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Never say never. Geek hope is a strong and powerful force that has changed the technological landscape throughout the ages. Don't underestimate the minds of several creative people out there. Especially those in the right places with the right resources to "make things happen". ;)

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

I just had to include the caveat for the eternal pessimists. ;)

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Yeah i agree. But the iphone is pretty snappy. Nokia with so much experience in mobile devices should do better than a company with not much experience in this field.
How do you explain that??

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Nokia has never built a Linux-based, touchscreen touting, open source platform powered Internet Tablet before the 770/N800. Let's see, who else has built such a device? Um...no one.

Sure, the iPhone ui may be quick, but it's not exactly trying to do more powerful tasks that the NITs are capable of either. True, Nokia has some work ahead to step up their game when it comes to software performance and hardware support, but so does any company attempting to bring forth innovation to a market that surely needs it now more than ever.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Didn't Apple worked up a full blown OS on top of the BSD kernel for both their desktops and mobile device??

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

The iPhone has a much beefier CPU than the N800 and is (well, was) a much more expensive device.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Not before the 770, and from what I hear, iPones haven't really been too "open" friendly lately. :rolleyes:

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

So you're saying that open devices are held to a different standard?
Less intuitive interface and slower development time is acceptable?

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

@Zorg and Virion - dunno, I was just basing my comment on this article which says older hardware is not supported (but the installer can be hacked). Unless the article is entirely incorrect, it does appear that the OS X installer (as it comes "out of the box") will prevent installation on older Apple kit against the wishes of the owner ("Apple knows best") so I stand by my comment, even if some of you have had success. :)

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Well, I'll try again, since you evidently didn't look clearly enough the first time.

First and foremost, Mac OS X 10.4 != Mac OS X 10.5.

Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) restricts installation on Old World (pre-iMac, hardware ROM Toolbox), 1st-generation iMac (233MHz), iBook (300MHz), and Lombard (250-300MHz) machines. It installs and runs just fine on any other Macintosh.

Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) restricts installation on G4s 800MHz and less (Lamp-iMac and early-model Quicksilver towers) and G3 machines. Leopard will run just fine on the vast majority of G4 machines, and all models of G5.

Stand by them if you will, but, as you can tell, the facts in the article and the content of your post conflict. So, please, check your facts and your numbers before you post. :)

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

So it seems we'll get extra hardware - a keyboard? :(

It's getting worse and worse with each model.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Certainly we can’t halt the march of hardware development, nor would we want too. What is sorely lacking with the N800 is the march of software development.

So I am a bit confused by Nokia bringing out a new device. If it’s going to do as little as the existing one then it all seems a bit pointless to me.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Why on Earth would that be an "improvement"? Am I supposed to lose e.g. all my Maemo Mapper maps just because I want to insert my camera SD card? Or worse, if I'm going the 'boot from MMC (SD)' route? I wouldn't be able to insert _any_ card! Heck, as far as I'm concerned the IT could have SD slots all the way around the periphery, so that I could have all my cards installed at the same time, instead of having them collected in a separate pocket as I currently do.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

I find it quite amusing how hard it is for most people to accept change...

So the new tablet will likely have a slide out keyboard. I wouldn't use it much either, but it could be useful in the future. Besides, we still don't really know if it's even a keyboard yet. It could be an advanced stand mechanism, some sort of new hard cover for the device, or a new way to access the camera. I'll wait to see the device in action before coming to the conclusion that the "rumored" keyboard is useless too.

If there is something about the new tablet you don't like, don't buy it when it comes out. It's as simple as that. And if you just purchased an N800 or even a 770, be happy with it. It won't self-destruct as soon as the new tablet shows up on store shelves. You can still get a lot of good use out of the 770/N800. It's one of the major reasons I never upgraded from the 770 to the N800.

We haven't even seen the actual device yet, and people are going into panic mode about this thing! Just wait a while for device to actually show it's true form. You may be just as surprised by it's coolness as you were when the N800 first showed up around here.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

My problem is exactly the opposite: I don't want desktop performance -- or mimicking, if you like. A handheld device manufacturer should concentrate on the UI algorythms, not trying to imitate that (Bog help us) Windows desktop in front of him.

That is the reason why I keep yapping about the Newton, because that brick had that part completely right: Apple made a computer that was taylored to be used in your hands.

Okay, it was Apple, so it was hideously expensive and compatible with exactly nothing else, but for once (probably because Jobs was still hammering at the doors) they had one thing right: a (sort of) open and (sort of) fuctional SDK. Developing proggies for the Newton is really easy.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Yes.

Also, one's not allowed to use the really gross swearwords when addressing the developers. Using ones that don't get starred out, is acceptable though.

E.g.: I might think that Nokia are total ***** and ************* to boot, but I'd have to write that they are pussies and perpetrators of incestuous acts with their mothers. See the difference?

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

There's a reason the Newton didn't sell. It was *horrible*.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

When people buy the device for its potential, the future direction is important. If it is a slide out keyboard, I don't want it, my BT keyboard works just fine. It doesn't add size or weight. Most importantly, we know Nokia needs to instead use its resources to get the software up to snuff.

I never said the N800 was cool

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

IMO this is because of quantity of new tablet models. Nokia releases tons of different phones each year. Only single new tablet per year is not enough. If they would make 2-3 tablet models (one with keyboard, one with hardcover, ...), there would be no panic with each new one. Also previous model would not be automatically perceived as obsolete. I hope these times will come sooner than later. One size does not fit all.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Okay, okay, so the N800 gained some nice features, and lost some as well. It's a high probability that this third tablet will be the same way. However, I think the transition will be a lot smoother this time around as it pertains to the OS and installable apps. In fact, I have high hopes that there will be a stronger focus on making the software much better as well. Even more so than the hardware changes.

But that doesn't mean we can't have both. It's a heck of a lot better than having neither.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Thats the way it is, yes, and that's what I do. I didn't buy the N800 because it lacks the hard cover, has hard to press, low quality buttons and looks like a toy for children. Don't like it, so I don't buy it.

The problem with this is that I do like the Maemo platform and the way Nokia invests in this business. I'd love to be part of it and get the latest developments in software. So sticking to the 770 forever is not an option.

I hope you can see where the disappointment comes from if there's reason to believe that a new device could be even one step further away from what you'd expect from an internet tablet instead of closer to the once so promising beginnings.

(You're right, though, saying that we don't know anything yet. Maybe what they refer to as "slide" is in fact a cover, not a keyboard ;) )

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Releasing hardware and developing software are not mutually exclusive. The only thing that would happen if Nokia decided to not release hardware and focus on software is that the developers would be given something else to do that earns money for Nokia....

Assuming the new device is based on the OMAP, people will not have been taken away from updating the N800 software to write stuff for the new device. Nor will it take significant effort to 'back-port' changes (he says ;)).

If it is an OMAP then all those who don't want to buy this new device (because it has a keyboard, is the wrong colour, whatever) will benefit anyway as the software is targeted at the same architecture (afaicr Nokia said that the N800 will be supported for at least two more (software) release cycles).

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see if it is an OMAP machine...


Simon

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Have you used the device? I have—a lot. You can claim whatever you want, but it's an absolutely fantastic platform.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

You're absolutely right. A multiple tablet launch would make the current situation more "comfortable" as more choices is a good thing at the consumer level. However, I could see that more choices would cost a good deal more in the end. With two or more devices out at once, you introduce higher production, marketing, and support costs. Not to mention the whole self-competition thing.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Could this perhaps be one of the reasons for the new hardware?..
>> http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/01/nokia-buying-navteq/

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Exactly. I have come to realize that it's not so much the device that makes the biggest difference anymore, it's the software that holds the true potential. Once you have the hardware, there's only so much you can do to improve on it, but the software can evolve in ways yet to be seen. The best part is that we all can contribute to that evolution in so many ways it somehow frightens us.

I think a company as well established as Nokia can see when they need to re-evaluate its hardware offerings. We'll see how much they really learned from the past on this one soon enough.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Yes, for six months, unfortunately.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

They didn't sell because they cost a thousand dollars when new.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

That also didn't help, no. I felt the same thing about the Newton that some people here feel about the N800 now... so much potential wasted.

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

Telenav, now Navteq? They are definitely gearing themselves up for something bigger. Apart from the obvious spread of GPS navigation capability to more and more future phones, who says they won't take a stab at the dedicated GPS car units themselves? Hard to say, as it may well compete directly with the NIT, and in the end the NIT may well betheir portable/car GPS offering.

As for the next generation design, having used BBs and Treos for business, I have no problems with thumbing my way to get places, but I don't have large fingers yet find the soft-keyboard offered on the 770 originally I was not overwhelmed by its capability. Maybe the fact that you lose the actual screen you're typing into just to make use of it for standard functions on the tablet- it drops in that window on top of the soft keyboard. So if I had a choice, yes, I'd go hardware keyboard of some type, slider or ?, but at least I'll have the context of my efforts in full view.

As for the 4-way pad everyone envisions being here or there...I say DITCH IT, and go trackball or rollerball such as we're seeing in more compact mobile devices. It works, and gives you nearly limitless navigation coverage- works fine in menu-based environments and gridded icon based layouts, nevermind the improvment for movement in a mapping-type application or the obvious, games. Yes I know, the ball will stick out some...such is life, but not a whole lot more than the D-pad; design to accomodate it - others have. BUT also make the ball user-replaceable if necessary.

I guess when it comes to the keyboard options Nokia has to decide either to offer multiple designs - maybe one without and one with, or go one way and stick with it- improving upon it each and every time. There is no good way to measure who uses their device the most, but developers typically will be the winners when it comes to obtaining a fresh device for feedback purposes rather than the casual user who could have the best ideas on how to improve something. Thankfully we have forums such as these.

Has everyone given up the concern for improved handwriting recognition? I mean, this again boils down to Nokia deciding what to do with the platform. If it's X, then you should be able to work fluidly w/o need for a hardware keyboard. If they can't/won't perfect the handwriting piece to meet *everyone's* requirements (as if), then perfect the keyboard option instead.

I for one don't want another generic "does what every other device out there does" unit. I have 2 770s - the first I bought as a gift to myself, knowing full well it would be overshadowed and improved upon by the next-gen offering. But I purchased anyways. When the much cheaper 770s hit this past summer, I had another choice- buy a 2nd 770, or save and get an 800, even though it too would be surpassed eventually. I went with another 770 so that I could in fact have one to tinker with, the other to use regularly. And at some point I may let the kids (teens) have access to my aging one. By choice I did not get the 800, but whenever WiMax gets incorporated and things settle down a bit on the FCC spy-front, I may get the WiMax-enabled model. The question then becomes...do I really like Sprint enough to get a data plan with them?

Okay, I think I am staying on topic about the Third Internet Tablet vs. my MAC II GS played the best b&w games of any computer back in the mid-80s and I can run MAC OS Cheetah on all my old hardware. :p

It's really now just a waiting game, and until then, I'm going to enjoy my NIT further by trying more software and digging further into the HE and the ported CLI applets. With a much larger audience now than when the 770 was let out the door, Nokia has ten-fold the population to please...I wish them megaluck!

Re: Third Internet Tablet spotted on FCC
 

I think I explain it with the difference of OS mainly as well as optimization. It must be definitely easier to optimize the iPhone performance in contrast to the N800. That said, I would not mind speed increases on the N800 but I don't seem to be as bothered by its responsiveness as a few people. Meets my expectations just fine.