Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

H.264 is "open" in the sense that the specifications are public, anyone can write their own implementation and a level of backward compatibility is warranted. This is in contrast to flash or real where the specifications are controlled and adobe can change them at any time so that a new version of flash may make all third party players incompatible at any moment (although adobe is opening the flash specs as we speak, so flash may also become "open").

H.264 is not "free" because it is covered by various patents. But those patents have been organized in patent pools with clear and non discriminatory licensing conditions.


So in practice, there are 3 types of specifications:
-"closed", third parties have to reverse engineer the specs, they may be sued at any moment for patent infringement, compatibility may be broken at any moment.
-"open": third parties can get a description of the specs, patent licensing is easy and non-discriminatory, a good level of compatibility is insured.
-"free": same as "open" without the patents and the costs.


As to Apple and youtube: youtube is owned by google. Both Apple and google have interest in the web using "open" standards, so it is not as if it was an exclusive deal for the iPhone. And market share, whatever that means, is not the only criteria. What is best from a business point of view:
-investing money for you site to be viewable by 10 millions people, of which 99% will not bring any revenue or
-investing money for you site to be viewable by 1 million people, of which 50% will bring revenue?

This was always the problem with Linux users: they are not a good market target (they want everything to be free...), unless you sell computer hardware maybe. On the contrary, the iPhone (and Apple computers in general) are bought by people obviously having money and ready to spend a little more for good design and ease of use. They are a very attractive market target.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Why oh WHY did i read this whole thread?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I always thought it was the other way round - open as in open source and free as in not payed for, but still closed.

As for the Youtube - it was available for the iPhone as an internal application from the first update i think. I doubt Google was the only side interested in this deal - face it, iPhone will be a lesser hit if there was no Youtube on it. Don't know who first gave the idea, but i'm sure there is a fat contract to protect the interests of both sides.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

'free' in this respect refers to 'free as in "freedom"', not to 'free as in "free beer"'. So Jerome got it right.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

well if we are talking gnu free, there is this:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

thing is that with those freedoms intact, the cost of software gravitates towards the cost of distribution. and with the net making that virtually zero, free as in freedom can become free as in beer quite fast. and this is the same problem thats facing the entertainment "industries".

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I always hated that 'free as in beer' phrase. What does it mean? Beer isn't free.
It is a very stupid expression

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Well, there could be free beer, and there is free speech, but TANSTAAFL, so I guess the reason beer isn't free is because someone would have it for lunch and destroy the universe.

(RMS originally did not say free as in freedom ala TA-T3 & tso above; "free as in speech" means free as in free speech, and likewise WRT beer.)

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I agree it is very confusing, shouldn't it be free as in lunch?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Then again, there is free beer :)

http://www.freebeer.org

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I agree about the "free as in beer" phrase. Not only is beer not (normally) free, but "free beer" has all sorts of connotations (drunken frat boys, etc) that are completely incongruous with any discussion of free software.

How about, "free as in water," since there is still (some) free water? "Free as in air" has the same double-meaning problem as "free software".

EDIT: Bundyo, cut it out :D You're just muddying the water! Or beer. That "Free Beer" is free, as in speech!

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Free muddy beer!!

(Yep, that's what's holding back Linux and OSS in general.)

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

meh, i just think of free as in beer as being a example of a product provided at no cost. it could be free as anything physical but still not be gnu style free ;)

but i suspect that the beer bit has some kind of geek joke background thats been lost over time...

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

ok. Still doesn't make any sense. I guess it is one of those things people say that isn't meant to make sense other than to people who know what it is meant to mean anyway. An in joke.

Indeed. Like a not funny one!

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Not a joke, whether in, funny or otherwise.

Free could mean either of two things:
If I talk about "free beer", I mean I don't want to pay for it.
If I talk about "free speech", I mean I don't want restrictions on it.

From RMS's paper here:

Free software is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of free as in free speech, not as in free beer.

As time went on, "free as in free speech" became habitually truncated to "free as in speech", and "free ... as in free beer" to "free as in beer", because everyone talking about it knew precisely the distinction being made, and it would be horrible to waste a monosyllable everytime you refer to one or the other. (I suppose, if you wished to find humor in this, that would be the place to find it; with our silly obsession for conciseness.)

Further truncations like "beer-free" and "speech-free" are occasionally heard, but that sounds too much like non-alcoholic and uncommented code to gain much currency.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

But..the fact that in the English language, unlike many other languages, free can mean either 'gratis' or 'libre' is a source of confusion. And you can't say use free-as-in-beer-and-as-in-free-speech all the time.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

free isn't even the worst doubly-defined word in the language.

cleave is its own antonym!
1. to adhere firmly intransitive verb
2. to separate into distinct parts transitive verb

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

So you mean we're lucky we don't use cleave software?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Count your blessings it's not cleavage software...

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Thankfully, the "adhere firmly" meaning is archaic and rarely heard (perhaps in some wedding ceremonies). The "to separate" meaning is the common use of the word now, and it gets used all over the place, like in "cleaver" or "cleavage" ...

Both meanings of "free", however, are used all the time, and it is terribly confusing, even for native speakers. I think I'd rather say, "free-gratis," than say, "free as in beer."

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I don't understand the question, linux is being held back? All of my servers run linux, most of my hardware devices such as routers run linux, my N800 runs linux, my desktop runs linux. I can find other OS's around here if I care to look. If you mean by some measure of percentage for Joe Sixpack International as a market then I don't know nor do I care. It is ironic that there is even a lawyer written declaration of legal terms and even stranger that the semantics of that document is debated by hillbilly lawyers and anyone with an opinion. Determining the market segment of an Open Source system is a little odd, counter intuitive, and possibly inaccurate (if I cared about the % of yada boo boo).

works for me. I don't see a problem.

:rolleyes:

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

'free as in beer' vs. 'free as in (speech, freedom) simply means to show the difference in the meaning of 'free':

When someone says 'free beer' you know they mean you don't have to pay for the beer. (which doesn't happen often, but still, the meaning of 'free' in this case is very clear: free = gratis).

When someone says 'free speech' you know it's not about price, but about freedom.

Thus 'free as in beer' vs. 'free as in freedom'. GNU and RMS mean the latter when they speak of 'free software'.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

And after you said that, I heard it used in an interview on the television the same day, so it is in use here in English english.

hmmm... mind wanders off...

Free-gratis makes more sense to me, as it means something, rather than free as in beer, which always confused me when people said it.

Maybe I should go for more abstract terms to join in, 'Free as in turquouse'..

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Yes, but those of us who proudly refuse to speak Latin without good reason would then have to point out that you spelled gratings wrong, and that free gratings are as rare as free beer.

Free as in turquoise I guess would be alright, except the French would be continually looking up how free the Turkish Government was. But who cares about the French anyway.

That, or we could roll with what everyone uses; we could even call it an idiom... But if you insist on a custom term, might I recommend "free as in ale"?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

...or, "free as in mead" for the throwbacks...

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Free gratings are allmost certainly more common than free beer.

As you say, you can roll with what everyone else uses, it doesn't trouble me much as I haven't had a need to say it up to this point, apart from this thread, and I doubt it is going to be something I have to say again!

So in aswer to the thread starter, what is holding OSS back is their stupid expressions! :D

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Yeah, they should call it "Free as in great tits!"...

And OSS has no such expressions; what's holding back OSS is RMS and the FSF, and what's holding them back is their stupid expressions.

If I ever start a software movement, my slogan is gonna be "free as in NOS"...

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I like your expression. As someone who likes birds, I am always happy to stare at tits, which ever variety, great, blue etc.
Also yes, I meant the FSF (not sure what you meant with RMS, I assume you don't mean a 45 degree average of rectified power from peak to peak?)

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Richard M. Stallman. One must have three initials to become a leader in the free software movement.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Oh yes, him. Fully agree then.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

excellent, then I qualify! Keep an eye out for BSD Linux... uh, er.. waitaminnit...

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I thought you needed three initials to be a presidential assassin?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

i wonder how long it will take until this thread is about most loved TV series of the 1960s...

i have to admit it's the most gruesome yet mesmerizing thread on ITT so far.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Since you mentioned it, why not skip the waiting and discuss these series?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

you wouldn't need to go any further than Get Smart. ;)

there, that didn't take very long, did it?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Well, obvious. It would have to be Rainbow i would say

Actually no, that was the 70s.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

If I see one more post on-topic (that is, advocating caring about Linux "ready for the desktop", more or less), I'm liable to puke. So I am (incredibly successfully, I might add) trying to drift it as far away as possible...

Well, completing the list, there's Doctor Who. Now that we got that covered, what's next?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

More on "free as in beer".

Someone made things a bit more confusing by saving a word. The original phrase must have been "free as in free beer".

Imagine this. Someone puts a sign on a bar, "free beer!" You know what it means, and you go to have a drink. Then you say to the bartender, "by the way, what's the recipe for this beer? I think I can make it better!"

The bartender says, "the recipe is none of your stinking business! It's a family secret! Drink some for free and stop asking questions!"

The beer is free, but not open source.

Now, say someone has a disk with some software on it. You say "nice program! Can I have a copy?" The answer is "no, but I'll give you the source code and you can compile your own copy. Or you can change it as you want!"

The software is "free" in the second sense, in that the "recipe" for making it is open and modifiable. The beer is "free" in the first sense. You can have some, but the recipe is none of your stinking business.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

Don't you mean open sauce?

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

or a presidential assassin's target?

That means Barack Obama should be safe, no self respecting American would dare use his middle initial.

Re: Is this what's holding back Linux and OSS in general?
 

I think we need something catchier and shorter if we want linux to succeed on the desktop..uh oh no there I said it.