Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Templates for what? Themes? See Theme Maker. For other themes (interestingly enough, at downloads.maemo.org):

http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/NuvoPearl/
http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/lcars/

...there are also others listed on the Theme Maker website.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

And some hang out in the screenshots thread here...

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Yeah I 'm sure its one of my my 1000 spelling errors I have two monitors at work and I'm on forums on one and working on other at same time.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Yeah but you would think there would be hundreds of them.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

There's not. I've seen less than 15 total, I think.

So I guess the answer to your original query would be that (nearly) noone makes them.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

or they dont share

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I have two monitors at home and at work + countless NXs, RDPs and SSHs, spellchecker is still doing wonders mind you :)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

This calls for a contest!

Or was that a musical show in the barn? (apologies to those who don't get the context)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

worst speller or most irrelevant post:)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I'm so used to my computer at home showing me what ever I type wrong on forums that I forget my work computer doesn't do that.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

well i guess this thread will denigrate into people agreeing to dissagree but hey thats good too...the free exchange of ideas will lock into someones head and well...help make some good changes

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Lets just hope that we get some kind of download section back here.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

The other Themes are under development. :D

After posting them some where on some site, their developers desperately look for discussion between themselves and the users.

Please -- someone propose a solution where users can provide direct feedback to developers and developers can offer help and talk directly to the user community!

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

uhh i think we are trying.....the problem here is a devoloper puts something out...everyone rushes to try it...people like who dont have the full 100 % understanding of what said program can do or how to make it work gets frustrated then sulks off...or gets told to search for there answers

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I know alot of people hate wiki's if someone had a problem and found out how to fix it then it got put on the wiki it would be easy to find and point people to. (Gets ready to be flammed for bringing up wiki)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

/me blasts andrewfblack with liquid N2
(That's the opposite of a flame, in case anyone didn't get it.)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Touché - however no-one's suggesting that there shouldn't be a better communication mechanism between users & developers. Some projects have mailing lists and fora (some of which are hosted on garage, but that's not important right now), for things like themes such overheads are probably overkill (but there'll come a time when a theme author wishes he had version control).

If ITT can provide some kind of automated service for that, all's the better. As long as it doesn't mean as an application developer: 1) duplicating content I've already put in the de facto place, 2) following disparate threads and comments elsewhere when my project might have somewhere more specific.

If we're talking about optional developer tooling, that's great - but that's not what Reggie originally announced.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

BTW I did put some info in the wiki today.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Er... let's see.

The constructive proposal to move forward:

- Can you please create a wiki page listing the use cases you want to satisfy? I bet we can accomplish all of them in a sensible way, making users and developers happy without doubling work and tasks at ITT and maemo.org. Please detail all the requirements you would need from maemo.org, so we know exactly what do we have and what is missing.

The little details:

- Canola has been presented as a good case for this software service in ITT. Well, http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/canola2/ is a good example of an application listed in maemo downloads that is being updated regularly as new releases are produced. So what? Syndicating the information generated in maemo downloads ITT would have just the same thing and the (really busy) Canola developers could keep the current routine instead of having to double effort every time they have a new release (and they do many before reaching the desired final version).

- There are themes in maemo downloads i.e. http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/NuvoPearl/

- There are not NumptyPhysics levels to downloads. By the way, I couldn't find them either at http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/ . Do they exist independently from the application? Can a user save download and add them separately? Is anything stopping anybody from uploading these levels in maemo downloads now, and even suggesting a specific space for them?

- But what is most important, if you find other things missing... did you ever ask for them? Someone asked for PC downloads and now there is http://maemo.org/downloads/PC/ . I don't see why anything useful couldn't be implemented, if feasible.

- Currently maemo.org works like this: Nokia is funding some guys to gather what is relevant for the community and do it. Or specify it if it's too big, so we can plan a budget for that. Nokia is happy when the maemo community is happy. Many people in this thread have said "talk to X-Fade" aka Niels Breet. He is the webmaster and he is the one pushing the agenda of things to be done. He is also the developer of the maemo downloads, so he knows the thing and what else could do. Nobody at Nokia s bloking him or anybody else from implementing improvements and receiving new feature requests.

- Sorry but I don't buy the argument of "let's make this patch that we know is problematic but at least fast to implement, and then we can discuss with more time the right solution". Because in the meantime the fast patch doesn't help solving the problem and in fact the chances that makes the situation worse and harder to solve are high.

- "If you are developing a service for developers, please discuss with the developers first" sounds like a sensible advice. It might sound like we are having a discussion here, but in fact all the developers with a name and a populat application that have taken part in the discussion have the same opinion. If they are not convinced, who will ITT convince? Convincing only those not concerned about maemo extras and maemo downloads will not help ITT users, that is for sure. Forcing the _senior_ developers to either follow a process they dislike or boycot an initiative of a forum they like won't help either.

So please, wait a bit, discuss a bit more, let's define the use cases and let's agree on the sensible ways to solve them.

One clarification:

- About syndication, do we know what are we talking about? Identified metadata that can be pulled from anywhere and reformatted in the way you wish i.e. perfectly integrated to ITT. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOAP for metadata to describe software projects. You know what is RSS/Atom about to report updates. I wonder what information about a piece of software or a release would you add here that couldn't come from the original sources at maemo.org. Then the user feedback proceeds as usual in ITT, nobody is questioning that.

And about people in charge of maemo.org not caring about users.

- It's because we care about users that we believe in quality awareness among amateur & professional developers and we agree on related processes that create "extra" work for developers (as opposed to just upload a file and ask for people to enjoy).

- It's because we care about users that we don't want them to fall by accident in a developer & techie space like *.maemo.org. ITT is a much better place for them and this is what I have said in this thread and many times before elsewhere. Syndication allows users to stay in ITT while getting software properly tagged as stable/beta/TNT and the right information from the place where the developers are.

- It's because we care about users that we want all the stable and interesting software hosted in the extras repository, and all the rest out of it. How the user gets that software it doesn't matter as much: app manager in the tablet, install file in ITT or maemo.org or the project website or a blog post or... If a user skips the repository thing i.e. installing directly .deb packages they won't be aware of updates. If a user installs an app in repo X nobody has reviewed (extras plans to have community review) the stability and performance of her tablet might be at risk. What is more, by installing one app that activates a 3rd party repo, the user will see the rest of apps in that repo in the application manager. All kinds of unstable/unreliable software can be there but they all look the same in the app manager. Risks increase of getting dependencies problems, more unstable software underneath, batteries drained, poor performance...

- It's because we care about users that we think it is better for them to know that there are NNN apps for their OS version, and be sure that this is much of it, seeing the same numbers wherever they go for picking their software. Having 192 here, 74 there, 17 over there, yet 1 more in my personal site and not all of the apps in all the places won't make their life easier. And again, who provides the quality criteria across these sites? Going through the extras-devel & extras path is the best way to have the most experienced guys watching at least the software that leads the ranks and calls itself 'stable'.

And finally

- Sure, whatever is missing in maemo.org could be covered here. You are welcome to implement in ITT whatever is missing for end users (everything since, as I say, it is our explicit intend not to cover them. But if there is something missing useful for developers... what is the problem helping improving maemo.org - the clear resource for maemo development? What is the interest of ITT competing with developer resources and developer audience, this is what is difficult to understand.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

About NumptyPhysics levels:
http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/levels/

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Doh, thanks.

otoh, what is so weird about going to the NumptyPhysics website to download NumptyPhysics levels and, again, have an RSS feed at http://numptyphysics.garage.maemo.org/levels/ that could be syndicated here so Mr Tim Edmonds doesn't need to post twice or more.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

But why a RSS feed, wouldn't in this case a JSON request be more appropriate and probably lighter?

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

What about custom levels were are you supose to upload them?

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

These ARE custom levels - each user now sends them to Tim, who puts them up on the site. But this mechanism can be simplified if they are uploaded to maemo.org by the users creating them for instance and syndicated everywhere else.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Hey Qgil is there anyway there could be a Categorie for themes on maemo.org then Desktop Environment doens't really seem to fit it. If I was a new End User I wouldn't know to look there for themes.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I can't speak for Quim, but going from what he just said, I think you should direct that question to x-fade: (emphasis mine)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

yeah your right

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

I would like to reply to Quim's long post but I would do it tonight when I get home.

In the mean time, to start things off, here's the Syndication Discussion Wiki:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/wi...rg_Syndication

If this does materialize, I hope I can find the time to implement it...

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Is the ITT development open? Would it be possible to help you? Either through volunteering or paid work.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

If it is, I'm adding a "No Thanks!" button. :)

(not so that I can use it on you, qgil, obviously)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

"Would it be possible to help you?" was the important piece. :)

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

/me cowers in fear.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Several of us have volunteered, but we have determined that Reggie is like Superman... with no known Kryptonite...

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

As well you should.

I look forward to driving you into the Negative Zone. [imagine evil smiley here]

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Pfft. You? No way, you'll be just a drop in the bucket next to the hordes of indignant *****s that will drag me down into the deepest, darkest depths. ;) :p

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Yeah, we totally need one.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

declining to make any *****ic comments before my first cup of cofee

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Thank you Reggie. I figured as much from the my first reading of your idea.

By way of background, as I'm sure others here may be, I have been around the IT business and commercial software development for nigh on a quarter-century now. I have also been involved in evangelizing new technologies, most notably the Internet in the late 80's and early 90's, and a number of network security technologies. Most recently I have been CTO of an enterprise software startup. That experience colors my perspective on things like this.

I love my Internet Tablet and know that several people have bought them, largely as a result of my ranting.

I have to admit my first reaction was to be a bit appalled at the reaction to someone who, for all intents and purposes is offering essentially free marketing to developers of maemo applications. My second reaction was a bit more critical in that it reminded me of many of the reasons it has taken us so long to see credible efforts at end-user friendly Linux desktop environments. (It requires an effort of will for me to avoid launching into rant about the behavior I have seen in those communities and how many of those people, however well-intentioned, seem to have a complete lack of understanding of end-users and the necessity to make things easier for the intended beneficiaries. In general, I tend to feel that people like that deserve to lose. I know they wouldn't last ten seconds in a commercial software business.)

As someone who has had his Internet Tablet for about a year now, I have to say that though I totally understand and appreciate the value of the other places to obtain maemo software, I have found many of them, including garage, maemo.org/downloads and some of the repositories problematic in terms of availability, ease of finding specific appropriate files (no end user should have to know what "bora" means), or in many cases, and as one developer has already mentioned, context.

People don't download software in a vacuum. They want to know how it's different from other choices, perhaps including the choice of not using a particular application.

Developers, if they're professional in their outlook (yes, even hobbyists can think this way- my amateur radio club has several books to their credit), should want whatever constructive input they can get to make their creation better, even if they choose not to use it.

I read several Internet Tablet related sources every day, but as an end user, this is the one to which I keep coming for the majority of information that matters.

I totally appreciate and support the desire for a unified site (and perhaps repository) for installable maemo apps. I don't see any conflict from having resources here, of whatever sort (.install links, .deb files, or hot links) to help people find things that are right for them to use.

All that having been said, I do think that people should use things like the repository mechanism to allow for updates and the like. I have another linux-based platform (a Dreambox satellite receiver), and the best images for it all have a little button that allows for the easy addition of plugins and upgrades. There are issues with the developers on different continents not always updating things in ways that suit other continents, but on the whole, people are trying to make things easy to use. Despite this.. I have to go to a forum not unlike this one to find the most timely updates for certain components.

I realize that many developers don't have a lot of time. I also realize that applications often gain advocates who aren't even the original developer. Anything that better showcases an application in a way that makes it easier for the intended audience to find it is a good thing. In what some would call the "real world," it costs people a lot of money to find those.

I can see that in general, folks here are constructive, I'm glad. I think in summary, I'd simply urge people not to look a gift horse in the mouth.

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Oh, thanks Texrat, you just reminded me of my high school theatre days. I was in that show.

Though I do have to admit, we had the prettiest girls coming to visit the drama department.

Re: [DISCONTINUED] Announcing the Internet Tablet Talk Software Section
 

Did you get Mickey Rooney's autograph?