Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I sure would like to see A2DP bluetooth profile support in the future. Any mention of that?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

If the tablets worked with something like this...

http://www.targus.com/uk/print_produ...sp?sku=ACP50EU

...would that be acceptable?

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Says who?

Most of the phones my family has used were never approved by our GSM carrier. I have never had to worry about their approval of firmware, phone style, features or any other aspect.

I acquire the unlocked phone, plug in my sim card, and I use it. It's been that simple every single time.

So, sorry to xxWhateverxx, but this one is wrong, too.

The concerns about the addition of an HSPA modem are as overblown as those over the N810's inclusion of a hardware keyboard. That was supposed to "kill the product line", too. :rolleyes:

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Who says the carriers will have that much say?

How much say did any of them have over the N95?

Before you leap to claim that's irrelevant, consider again that HSPA in an internet tablet is a serious game changer. Carriers will tend to avoid it like the plague... and not because of any technical shortcomings, but rather, due to technical advantages.

Insisting on wifi in high-end phones cost us dearly with some carriers (typically in the US). Odds are your fears over any of the same head-in-sand carriers co-opting the direction of future tablet development is just flat paranoid.

So, once again, sorry to xxWhatsitxx. Still wrong. But keep trying! Maybe you'll quote someone that got it right next time.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

History???

We ain't drinking your Koolaide Texrat, so go pound sand.

Just like a the ***** you are Tex, you cannot prove I am wrong about what has yet to happen in the future. It hasn't happened yet. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong pal. Brontide and Gen Antilles really know stuff. Get a clue Tex....and the gun thing? It is in the US Constitution, and the Supreme Court decided in July 2008 that Wash. DC, Boston, NYC etc. got it wrong. You don't like the 2nd Amendment? Fine, get it repealed...if your team cannot do that then either live with it or move to Europe.

If the "carriers" become involved in NIT stuff, it will be the end as we know it.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

@Texrat post 122

Yes.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Hi!

I should be surely sleeping instead of reading you, but couldn't resist. :)

- The announcement yesterday was mostly about supported hardware? Sure, this is the most delicate part and the stuff many media, analysts and even many of you care primarily about. Good to have a Nokia vicepresident investing the 25 minutes available in his keynote on this (plus the Linux Foundation Gold, which implies a strategic message that I'm not sue the Linux lovers here appreciate. Then we have a Maemo developer session of 2h and a Maemo Summit of 2 days to go through more Fremantle details.

- HSPA/3G support is cool and deep stuff. C'mon. I understand the initial resistance from some of the current core insiders but there is plenty of people out there that never considered a Maemo device and thanks to this will think of it for the first time. Just like the hardware keyboard a year ago. Remember? Many of you didn't like it either but thanks to it (and well, some more stuff) now there is many more brilliant people around here. Also remember, eventually some opponents felt in love when they had the real thing in their hands. On a related note I also said repeated times years ago that I would never get a mobile with a camera and look me now.

- All this "exciting" discussion about data plans and what not is, if you look at it, pure speculation at this point. Maybe even a waste of time? Fremantle is not even in alpha and there is no device announced for it. Costs for data and business models about data today are X, Y, Z. 6 months ago they were different. 1 year ago they were different. How will be they when a device with Fremantle inside comes out?

Definitely time to sleep for me. More in few hours!

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

xx, you have my views on guns completely wrong... but that's not surprising given your misguided interpretation of other comments as well as your misunderstanding of the discussion in general.

I suggest, again, laying off the politics in addition to educating yourself on not only fun subjects like cell phones and history but also the concept of logical fallacies. Fascinating stuff. Go to it! I'll expect a report tomorrow morning.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Hey, buddy, thanks for stopping in!

I agree with your other points but speculation isn't necessarily a waste of time IF someone learns from the exercise. I know I did today, and it looks like a few others have as well (like ARJWright, who appears to have had a disruptive epiphany :D).

The only real problem with speculation is when people use it to assume the past always dictates the future (it should of course instead help shape it with lessons learned) and that disproving negatives is a valuable endeavor. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

You use that word misguided toward me repeatedly. I am misguided in your view maybe, but you don't get to decide what I believe. If I have your view on the 2nd amendment wrong I apologize.

Why can't you acknowledge that what Brontide and Ryan say might have validity, even if you think my opinions are nonsense?

You saying I have logical fallacies, does not automatically make it so.

Later.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I acknowledge what I see to be valid and take exception to the rest. Note that I was very specific in what I quoted and addressed. I did not say that I believe Brontide and GA are wrong in toto (I highly value their analsyis).

Time will indeed prove who is right or wrong vis-a-vis HSPA in NITs, but I'm not the one making absolute fatalistic predictions as if they are foregone conclusions. Think about it.

EDIT: I do find it funny and not a little ironic that some people fear Nokia will cave to the whims of carriers just because HSPA is added to the tablets. This is the same Nokia that is constantly castigated for NOT catering to the carriers but instead adding features that USERS want. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

This much at least :-(

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I was talking about the original design, and the existence of those functions. Sorry for not being clear.

Yes, carriers can and will disable included features, but again, this is typically for subsidized devices. It remains to be seen if future NITs are ever subsidized.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I think perhaps you to should agree to disagree and let the thing die.

None of you know what's going to happen. All you can do is speculate based on your knowledge and experiences. You weren't born together and do not work in the same office so. Your thoughts and perceptions will vary. That's what makes the world interesting.

When the device is released then perhaps you can come back to this thread the say I told you so.

But for now your both wasting each others time.
So can it.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Adding HDPA and even a SIM slot is not the same thing as inviting the cellular carriers to drive design. Nokia already sells N series devices with no carrier support.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I think this makes the internet tablets have half a chance of becoming popular going forward. Most people just don't seem to understand a device which is not a phone, or they don't want to carry 2 devices. I am really excited about this and I also hope we'll get more enabling HW features such as accelerometers, native hdmi out, etc.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

WOW!
so incorrect...
I know the cellular carriers try hard to have people believe this is the case and to believe that they have to buy carrier sponsored devices, but I am still amazed to see such a comment here..

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Exactly.

edit: but i agree that this comes with subsidizing the device.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

My INITIAL thoughts after reading this thread...

Three years ago I was against including a cell chip in the 770. I wanted it to develop into a highly mobile computing device that would suffice to allow me to be without a laptop. And I didn't care if it ever became a cell phone because I was carrying a laptop+cell phone and I would still be carrying a 770 + cell phone afterwards. I knew that the key was whether the 770 could duplicate most of the laptop's core functionality and that SW development was sorely needed to get to that goal. And I wasn't willing to risk that being distracted or compromised because of cellular issues.

I still want the NIT to be a computing device first and foremost, taking the place of what used to be a laptop. But the most significant thing missing from this thread is that the market for mobile computing devices has changed dramtically in the last three years, and will change even more in the next year. The NIT has to compete successfully with Apple, netbooks, MIDs, etc., and even full-size laptops with 3G cellular chips in them, and regardless of what you or I are looking for, the market is saying otherwise. So nowadays maybe a NIT has to have a 3G chip to take its place in the new world. The other thing that has changed in the last three years is that (somehow) we don't now have that ubiguitous, open, WiFi/BT Internet connectivy everywhere that we thought we would, and like it or not, 3G is the next best thing.

So I am now not so opposed to a 3G cellular chip. Some good points have been made suggesting that it may distract if not necessarily take away from SW development which is still sorely needed. So I will listen closely to see if the cellular will indeed drag development of the NIT away from being a highly mobile computing device but at the moment I think it's possible that it won't.

I agree with those comments that the commercial environment of the cellular carriers is highly toxic and it's hard to enter that environment without being bogged down into their guicksand of walled gardens and lack of innovation. But Nokia is one of the few companies that possibly can independently develop and produce NITs with a 3G capability without being dragged into the cellular guicksand.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Good topic, interesting reading. Try to keep it friendly :)

I have to agree with some of the comments about it being a little hardware focused. Something that is already a strong point (video playback/GPS flaws excluded). My gripes have been software.

Still, if they add a sim slot, it should grab more market and so hopefully more software development. I think better PIM integration will become an inevitable follow on.

What does concern me if anyone can shed light on it.

When the good Doctor talkes about "Data Only" initially. Would that be simply a software restriction that could be addressed rather quickly or could this be a Hardware thing. Meaning having to wait for another device to be released.

I'd much rather just have the 1 sim and contract and use a BT headset to get round the Ear Wax on your display problem.

Also, on a different note. Those that use "Laptop" Data Only type contracts. Do you get a greater range of services available. i.e. The networks support/don't block various ports etc.

I've got a real problem with not being able to get WayFinder traffic updates over T-Mobile (UK). Switched sims with the wife recently when she got an iPhone (does not support 3 network) and I found that 3 would let me get traffic updates for about a week or so. And then suddenly they started blocking it...

If you get real "unrestricted" access with Data Only, I might look at switching to VoIP come contract renewal time. And a new N900 would be just the ticket in that case.

Zuber

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

My immediate concern about the info in this presentation is the timeline for release. It doesn't sound like Maemo 5/Fremantle exists in any useful form yet, and if there are any real prototypes, they're too early to reflect the final devices' functionality. This means it most likely will be 1yr+ before the new device is released, and (esp. w/the added cellular capabilities) at least 6mo after that before it can be sold in the US. Palm may actually get its Linux-based OS out the door before this thing ships!

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

and pigs can fly :(

given how palm is the master of letting chances and deadlines slip, the company should be renamed to slippery palm...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Wow, lots of comments. Just skimming through them now.

I recorded the talk and will be making video and audio available when I get back home. (after the weekend).

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I wouldn't count on backwards compatibility for the exact same reasons you mentioned.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Good morning,

One point I forget yesterday were those posts dreaming of seeing a proto device in the Summit and speculating about Yannick's "snak preview". That was funny. The only OMAP3 hardware that might appear in the hands of a Maemo SW developer is the very interesting Beagle board, and to demo really low level stuff totally uninteresting to end users but hopefully pretty cool stuff for the platform developers familiar with those components.

We are the Maemo Software team at Nokia and we deal with... software. Protos and hardware are "devices" and there are whole units dealing with them at Nokia, who decide what is said & shown where.

Yannick (head of Maemo SW Applications team) was supposed to show some progress done around productivity tools. We don't have a public name for the project and this is why I could only write "Sneak preview" with all my innocence, not even thinking that someone would make that relation with a potential proto unveilment. Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, I just got an email saying that Yannick cannot make it to Berlin, but don't worry because Mika Kuuha will introduce the stuff from a technical level in his session on Saturday.

Then one thing about this so well written post:

Ah, so is there people concerned about this? Well, if you think about it the fear has very little ground from a project management point of view. Let me connect a collection of non-secrets to hopefully substitute your concerns with excitement:

1 - Maemo is in this mission of bringing Linux and open source to the mass market. This was the LinuxTag motto.

2 - HSPA + OMAP3 + hi-def camera support are very concrete steps on that direction.

3 - Bigger potential market goes together with bigger investment since it comes too with bigger competition, bigger pressure to have more and better products and etc. Maemo goes through those steps 4 and 5 maturizing the platform and tuning up the set of essential own applications + partnerships.

4 - A big part of the increased investment goes into hiring more developers since at the end code and pixels are essential elements of that success. Nokia is hiring a lot for Maemo. Just follow http://maemo.org/news/jobs/ or http://www.nokia.com/imaginemaemo - There is even a HHRR person helping out full time in the stand!

5 - Whatever development going to the HSPA/3G stuff doesn't compete directly with resources going to work on the issues that concern you now since the competences needed are totally different.

Hopefully all this makes sense to you. And now... time to got to OSiM and share more Fremantle plans!

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Based on what I've seen from the presentation and what has been discussed in this thread, I am really looking forward to finding out more about the future of maemo and the hardware that will be running it. It's good to see that Nokia are serious about making tablets that will appeal to a wider market.

The addition of HSPA seems like common sense to me. This is the direction now for all MIDs. With the prevalence of data only plans and the horrible value and carrier T&Cs of data on a phone plan, one more connectivity option is a good thing. I'm happy to keep my phone and my tablet seperate though, and this finally makes that possible: I can use the tablet without having to rely on having my phone with me, with bluetooth constantly draining the battery (if it's not already flat!).

But I guess I'm still going to be going through the same pre-rehearsed speech I have when people ask me "so is it a phone?"

Here's hoping Nokia know what they are doing! For now they still seem to be holding on to their own niche, it will be interesting to see how this changes when the next hardware is unveiled...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Huh? As far as I understand it will have on-board HSPA! :D

You do have a point with your Zaurus flexibility remark however I must add to this that the CF card was almost always used for WiFi (802.11a/b). IIRC only the SL6000 had on-board WiFi _and_ a free CF card, and that was Sharp's last Zaurus. Switching CF cards is not something one wants to do a lot. Keep one in it, and keep it firm! :)

BTW, I'm interested getting in contact with more former Zaurus users. I believe we former Zaurus users have a unique experience to discuss, and might also be able to contribute some kind of Wiki page with Zaurus -> Nokia upgrade path information. When I bought a NIT, as former Zaurus user, I'd have very much appreciated this. Although maybe its a minority.

The options are CF, PCMCIA, USB, BT are used for this nowadays. SDIO isn't good enough, IrDA too limited range.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Thanks to Texrat I finally know what HSPA stands for. I must have been absent that day in kindergarten when they explained it.

"legislative and regulatory bodies may have to step in at some near future point to resolve sticky issues of cross-provider access."

Suddenly, government intervention seems to be in.

All this sounds exciting to me. I think I'll start saving my money now.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

the big thing about government intervention, is it being done for the silent majority or the vocal minority?

last decade or couple of decades have been about he latter...

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

The very same is true for WiMAX. According to Wikipedia WiMAX is part of 3G. With WiMAX, you also buy a subscription. Its just that WiMAX doesn't have good coverage (yet), whereas HS(D)PA (*insert big list*) does have good coverage. At least, thats true for my country (Netherlands), and its what I've gathered for most European countries around me as well. In America this is different, but America is getting the N810WE!

Both WiMAX and HS*PA are licensed spectrums. This is normal because of government regulations, and they have a different goal than unlicensed WiFi. If you want (near) 24/7 connectivity you will need a licensed spectrum one way or another! The only difference between WiMAX and HS(D)PA is that the latter is rolled out by the (big) telcos who have been upgrading the GSM network to higher standards throughout the years where WiMAX allows new comers, and many independent corporations are starting to roll out WiMAX. I've seen this happening with DSL as well, and now there are again a few big players in consumer broadband land (all this, cccording to TAZ principles).

Heck, you even need a license for 27 MC. There simply is no option using an unlicensed spectrum with wide coverage.

As for branding, I don't know whether there will be NIT branding, nor simlocks. We don't know about this. We can't comment accurately on this. Why bother? If you do, feel free! However, at least realize they're assumptions and/or Symbian behaviour.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Haha, now you'll me able to use Maemo Mapper on only the NIT without having to worry you're driving to a place you've never been before! :D

Sorry, but I believe HS(D)PA module requires more than 150 mA. See one of my previous posts about that here (around page 9 or 10). If you believe different, I'd like to see it outlined.

If you could connect a USB 3G phone to a BlueTooth device which are both powered then this is your modem, you can use it together with your phone/laptop/tablet/fridge/magnetron/whatever.

The advantage is that this device is does essentially nothing, small, and dedicated. You're using the BlueTooth standard; no wires like with USB. The disadvantage is that BlueTooth cryptograpghy (according to an article recently at schneier.com I referred to on the wishlist N900 thread) is essentially vulnerable. For _this_ specific purpose that is a problem. To get data from your GPS to your NIT, much less if not none. Another disadvantage is that you worry about another device (weight/space/battery/point_of_failure).

I say: forget this and make the NIT better than a phone! Screw LiMo, screw Symbian. I envision being able to have the NIT the device I use normally, and if I really need big work, I take my laptop. Ofcourse that comes with a price, but thats TANSTAAFL, and if we really lack something software wise we might have to put bounties up. Heck, maybe we could put bounties up in Bugzilla? I mean, I'd have paid 50 EUR to anyone who fixed N810 GPS. Why not? Now I had to pay a dedicated one for 30 EUR.

As for your N8x0. Lets say Maemo 5 won't support the N8x0 anymore. HE is then an option. eBay perhaps. You could even give it to your neighbor's son for his birthday. Give it your nephew. Make a dedicated device of it (e.g. navigation system) and give it to your sister. Give it to a poor kid who's parents can't afford it, he might be a Linux developer in 20 years partly due to your gift. I'd give mine to a German friend of mine who lives in poverty. He usually gets my old hardware, and I know he appreciates it. A lot.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

My hats off to Texrat because a few months ago he said in a post that he and others from nokia regularly pass our concerns up to the mothership(not direct quote) :)
I'm very pleased with the faster processor, graphics acceleration and hd camera(I prefer the swivel N800 camera setup). I'm really happy with cellular capabilities. I want as many choices as possible on my mobile office/entertainment/info center. Texrat post 122 I'm in because that would keep device small and yet give device many new features.
qgil I'm really hopeful qt starts giving us some great apps for the Nxx. I've been using qt apps on my N800 through Easy debian and I love their speed and ease of use.
If I may be so bold as to suggest from a user point of view that Nokia look at the way Qole implemented the Easy Debian setup. I love the fact that I can use any Debian app within Hildon and Vice versa. I increased the swap file to 1gb and and upgraded to class 6 sdhc cards and did PB's Easy Dual boot. This setup took a lot of load off the small processor and it allows me to keep up to 8 apps running at same time. I like the Canola app but not the setup. it should be implemented like Qole's Easy Debian.
As a user/tinkerer/modder I love the way N800 allows me to customize the N800 to my needs. Please think about the following suggestions as far as sw development. The UI should allow for more user modding and personalization. Ex. I would like to create a see - through app menu so I can see my background through the main app menu. I would love to expand the menu at the top right of the screen so I can place more icons there. This is very helpful when I'm in an app and I want to know the time/weather/battery status, etc... Next I would love to be able to put just one icon on left side that I can customize to my liking or move it to any part of the screen for that matter. i would love to have background that move alla matrix or radar screen, etc...(small 50k or less that loop).
Another important area in sw that Nokia needs to develop is voice recognition. I enjoy in Debian and KDE having flite read my emails and just about any webpage or text I tell it to. The Hildon flite is bad. Also MPD should be fully developed because media player and Canola choke on large audio/video play lists. Flite works good with Maemo Mapper and my little GPS keychain.
Screen rotation and dual booting needs to be a standard feature in next big OS upgrade. It really gives the Nxx a lot of flexibility and power.
With the new processor I would love to be able to partition for XP and Mac OS. I'm in business and my clients give me business apps in those platforms not linux or Maemo. I really feel that Nokia should put effort in helping make the device have remote capabilities. there are several projects to IR/Tilt, etc... I would also like to see the ability to have the camera used as a remote recorder/viewer. Nokia really needs to get Skype to fix the camera function on Nxx. Also porting over Mythtv. or tivo would be great.
I hope the N900 has 2 sdhc slots or I will have to pass. For business I have to carry large audio/video files. Also 1gb ram would help the little monster. An extra usb port would be knockout and real gps and a2dp support. Oled screen would be a dream. :)
I did not mean for this post to be so long but I'm really excited as a user. Thanks for all the great work you two have done and the rest of the Maemo/Nokia teams. Keep it up.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I guess the one word that would summarize my post is uncertainty. At this point, as a developer, community member, and user I am more uncertain about the future of Maemo.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

The future IS uncertain! :p

You're not the only person having these feelings :) IMO its normal right before a big change, while you don't know details about change.

On 4 november 2008 you'll feel uncertain about the future of USA as well. ;)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

According to the dev session this morning, yes.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

Yes; I was not saying it would work, merely that the charge of non-standardness seemed wrong.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

I call BS. My bet's on Q1 2009.

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

will there be two sdhc slots?
1qt 2009 would put it just in time for 64gb sdhc cards. :)

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

<diversion>
"On 4 november 2008 you'll feel uncertain about the future of USA as well"

Actually, has anyone seen the newspapers for the last few days? I feel uncertain about the future of the USA now.

</diversion>

Re: Dr. Ari Jaaksi on Maemo 5
 

No need to worry.

They powered up a big donut (LHC) here last week and we survived.

So cheer Up :)

Zuber