Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

The return rate does not have to be equal to the sell rate.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Just examples. My point was have these OS releases really been "oh wow" updates? Did they really get you talking to non-owners about the device again? Or excited about using your tablet in a new way? It's Nokia's OS and it's their updates that lead and enable the community to do great things with their devices, and they've been taking a slow, deliberate and conservative approach that they've been called out on many times.

Because it's not sold as a pocket Linux computer, but as an "internet experience." I bought my first tablet because of Nokia's mobile expertise, and because it running Linux meant new and interesting apps would be plentiful. But I did expect *some* leadership in app design in the vein of S60 projects like Widsets, Share Online, Nokia Search or Podcasting from Nokia but instead got a beta of Video Center that seems to have been abandoned.

Ultimately, It's the core experience -- an 800px wide "full" web browser with Flash -- that keeps me using it, but honestly that core experience hasn't grown much since November 2005. And that core experience is owned by Nokia and theirs to change.

Things will improve for the community with Mer, but that doesn't change my response -- that looking back it was the software, not the hardware, for me. I'm glad Nokia is starting to get this right now, but yeah, it does still leave us with a lot more waiting.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

OK, so you expected certain things from Nokia. That's fine, but when those things come from the community, they don't come encumbered by Nokia, which makes them many times more desirable to users. Personally, I'd rather see Nokia do what it can to enable community efforts and build a strong platform for the efforts to rest upon, rather than wasting time implementing every little thing everybody thinks they should bundle by default.

Oh, pish, did you use OS2005? . . . I did, Opera on the 770 was atrocious.

Yes, leveraging Nokia's continued efforts. ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

True, but you can install a saner distro (my wife's aspire one is happily running mandriva now, and that was a couple hours effort).
That's not so easy with the tablet, partly for the different processor (that reduces the set of distributions available if you don't want to cross-compile everything yourself), but partly for the closed hardware (though that is slowly and partly changing).

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

No, admittedly I came in on the tablets at OS2006. But looking at this screenshot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maemo_desktop.jpg) and at this Nokia copy from the Wayback Machine (http://bit.ly/YF1k) I still say the core experience hasn't changed much. It's performance has, by God, yes. Not trying to say that's good *or* bad, just pointing it out. (See my original point.)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

For almost 2 year I have been reading and participating in this forum. In the beginning, most messages had a positive feedback, and most of us were strong supporters of Nxxx/Maemo. However, I noticed that since last summer, this "feeling" is detriorating (this chain is a clear example). I guess that this is a sign of the frustration many of us had since we realize that the N900 never becomes reality. The dynamics that the new products and software releases that kept us ignited is dying away, and many of us is either becoming very critical or looking elsewhere.

After all the fuss last summer regarding the new N900, we are left empty handed. All the new releases, they either fix some bugs or introduce minor improvements. Nothing really important to keep us looking forward to.

Lets see where this will lead us.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I think nokia should at least release pictures & specs of the hardware just like the n97 just to maintain interest.

I hope they release the n900 before may end, otherwise interest will dwindle steadily and if some other manufacturer comes early then them... especially an apple tablet (even if they announce it) it is going to be very hard

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

It means the EEe running Linux are returned 5 times as often as the ones running XP.

It is a statistic, and I haven't provided the source. Now I can't find the source... duh. Maybe I'm confused with OLPC. What I did find was the following. The CEO of Asus says the return rates are similar.

(Microsoft got caught with their hands in their hair on this one. They never anticipated Vista for this purpose. Now they're working on this with Windows 7. This version for EEe comes end 2009.)

Not for me, but I keep my options open. For example, I'm interested in the Nokia N97.

I'm not with empty hands at all. I see Nokia investing more and more in Maemo and the internet tablet. A lot has become clear during summer, and every now and then more is clear.

The release of a new tablet (or tablet-like) device with Maemo, hackable, is eminent as far as I'm concerned.

Some people don't like the proprietary hardware components, but the way I see it 1) this is a bit in Nokia's advantage 2) Nokia is collaborating to get the sources open.

Then you might not like a HS*PA or camera addon on the device, but without such, it does not compete enough with smartphone products and features...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Me too, but I see an huge overlap between N97 and a N900.
At least from the users point of view (functionality). Unless the N900 has a much larger screen than the N97...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I agree.

The problem as I see it is a combination of mistakes on Nokia's part vis-a-vis product development and release (IMO) combined with a lack of strategy on community software development.

We can't do much about Nokia's irregular schedule and poor choices (I still think it was a HUGE error not to have released a newer N800 iteration by now). And the best we can do on the official software front is identify and report on bugs (which this community does to a great extent).

But for reasons I still cannot put together we have not yet managed to create a cohesive community of developers. I believe Nokia has come up short there, too, in not providing the proper level of leadership (it's close, but not quite there). However, there is no real reason that a 100% community-led effort could not also be achieved.

There should always be solo software efforts IMO and I will not take anything away from the excellent work done by "coding cowboys". But as I and others have often noted, there is too much overlap and too many gaps between various projects. The solution is managment, although I realize many Linux coders shy away from what they perceive as restrictive bureaucratic hierarchies... so clear goals and communications are necessary.

I am hopeful that the council is one step toward solving the scattered software issue, because that's a BIG one. If we can build and sustain a continual flow of apps then many criticisms vanish. But it all comes down to leadership of one form or another. Without it we are individuals with isolated goals.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I did too, like all early adopters. The most charitable thing that can be said about OS2005, in retrospect, is that it was somewhat "experimental" :-)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Indeed.

I believe either one will be so good and powerful that it would not be worth to compliment it with the other.

One might do e.g. N97 + N8x0 (for bigger screen & Linux liberty). Or N900 + cheap telephone (phone capabilities).

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I dont think the n97 will be that powerful, considering that it is not going to use the high end arm processor on the n900, and having the phone seperate is really nice. I have the n810 and the n958gb. I use the phone for the camera, music and sometimes basic gps via gmaps. But browsing, videos and apps... the tablet is best in its class. I just want more fluidity to the experience and that will come via the updated processor.

I just hope nokia release n900 with diablo and then later on make the fremantle update.... i just cant wait anymore. I have also considered the archos 5 tablets in the interim

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

This is probably the most important aspect of all. Everything said here by more or less official Nokians about why an "N900" wouldn't be released sooner (spell: CES) etc. etc. does make sense to a certain degree and I can live with it. Or rather: I could live with it if they'd given us something to spend money on in 2008. That is the reason for my frustration, not the late release date of the Maemo 5 device.

I'm not a developer myself and have no experience with other projects or communities, but there's one thing I always found odd about the Maemo ecosystem:

Community members expect Nokia not only to take the lead, but to actually do things themselves. On the other hand, when it comes to implementing things requested by users, Nokians always point out that this is an open platform and they expect "the community" to handle these things, while Nokia only provides a basic experience.

This is an impression I got from the early days (I bought my 770 in early 2006). Things do change right now. In fact, change started during the first half of 2008. But there's still traces of "But first Nokia has to..." answered by Nokia's "Do it yourself if you want it."

Why do I point this out?

Because it indicates a lack of role allocation. What's new for Nokia ("being open") is new for the community as well. People know how to work in a community that's completely open. People know how to play by the rules in restricted communities (like developing for S60 or jPhone). And of course people know how to work in communities that definitely act against the intentions of the company producing the hardware (hacking game consoles etc.).

What we have is different. We don't fight Nokia and hack a closed device. That would be easy: No help expected, all done by ourselves.
We also don't really work on par with Nokia like we would if this were a normal free software project. And we don't even have clear guidelines like "you do the software if you want, but stay out of the platform, will you?" as in controlled communities.

It's a little bit like a kid being confronted with a teacher or a parent who tries not to act authoritarian but doesn't know how else to handle the responsibility. The teacher/parent will make a lot of blatant mistakes (as did Nokia), but in the end, the child will get confused and will not know what it should do, what his role is.
Of course the community is not a child in terms of being immature, but it's still growing. And the community is confronted with a partner who, at least in the beginning, didn't know how to handle his own role in this partnership. Such a situation always affects both parts in a negative way.

This is my explanation for several weaknesses we still have in the Maemo community even though the project started quite a while ago. Maybe somebody at Nokia had similar thoughts... after all, a lot of the work they did in 2008 focussed on defining roles, even words. And it seems they are about to change some of the rules yet again with Fremantle: There are some statements indicating that maybe we'll have more openness not only in code, but also in the development process.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I would hope that the WiMAX fiasco would be the right kick in Nokia's a*s; I'm starting to see some modular, although proprietary-bus looking, products that have Bug-like components. But it seams by the current state of the cellscape that we'll see each other in Hell before we'll see a swappable cell radio. I guess what I'm really trying to say is: F*ck you FCC and f*ck you cell industry. "You're doing it wrong." I want to eat my cake. Can I have my cake now? Here, here's some money. Now give my my f*ckin' cake. I have this nice, chilled glass of milk just waiting. Whew, I feel much better now, thanks.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I want to make sure I'm very clear here.

I'm not even referring to the N900 or anything close-- I mean take the N800 itself and polish a few aspects. Improve video speed. Increase onboard memory. Upgrade to the BP-4L battery. Change to a transflective screen. Reduce size and weight a bit if possible. Things like that. But KEEP the current features like FM radio. An "N801" so to speak.

I believe the N800 form factor still has legs. I do not understand the decision to completely move away from it. I think there should always be at least two form factors at any given time: with keyboard and without. There should also always be some overlap between release schedules, and NEVER gaps.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

on that return rate thing,

iirc, it was msi that claimed 5:1, not asus.

if you think the eeepc or aspire one distros are bad, the wind distro was a nightmare. missing drivers are just an example...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

You don't understand the decision because you're not thinking like the people who made the decision.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

on that community thing, i suspect it has as much practical as social issues.

even now with thee ssu's, there are still to much heavy handedness on nokias part, making it hard for any potential community to make its own fixes...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

@Textrat:

I don't know how Nokia let you go. They should have found something for you, or they should have worked with you to redefine your role. Something. I'm glad you've decided to stay active here; I'm not sure that I would have. Anyway, many of us feel similarly about the n8x0 platform. Nicely said. It's that damn keyboard, isn't it? The funny thing is, I would probably own an n810 if they just left some kind of d-pad on the front. That's my show-stopper. I never would have thought I was that picky...

@Nokia:

Nokia is not perfect (except for my ex-wife, who is?), but they're in a class by themselves. "Nobody does it better" for this platform; there is no where else to go and they deserve all the credit for this. I don't want Nokia wasting time blazing software trails, I want them blazing hardware trails. My instincts tell me they're going to hit a home run with the hardware refresh (d-pad out :)). But I'm tired of my instincts and I'm tired of their finessing-the-market mumbo-jumbo.

<shouting>Hey. Nokia. It's not a race to the Moon. Your reasons for all the hush, hush seem to be bordering on paranoia. And the irony is that I feel the lack-there-of (paranoia) is your biggest strength. You almost seem to encourage your customers to remain hardware/software agnostic; as if you actually believe in some form of competitive, free market. Bravo to you. That's why I'm a customer 'cause I can feel that. Now, cough up some hardware specs and shut me the f*ck up.</shouting>

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

It's more than that-- I posed that question and did not receive a satisfactory reply. Unfortunately those are still details I cannot publicly disclose, but suffice to say I strongly disagree with what I've seen and been told.

The death of the N800 form factor has left a serious void in the product line IMO. If acknowledging that means not thinking like whoever made such a decision, then thank God for that! :D

(and aside to daperl: thanks much!)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

What a brilliant suggestion. It is so obvious that it never occurred to me. There is little wrong with the N800 form factor. To my mind Nokia has now taken two opportunities to dump a potential design classic, the first being the N770 - my opinion is that they should have kept that design and upped the spec to N800 standard, but never mind.

An N800 with the improvements you mention would be a winner in the interim and they can take all the time that they need to polish the N900 without having to rush it out the door.

And they sacked you? The fools!

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Maybe I'm taking your comments too literally - you understand the decision, but just don't agree with it. Fair enough. You might be right, but don't let it get you down.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Eh, I disagree with something I am not sure I understand if you want to be completely literal... lol.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Actually it was my position that was sacked-- I was left with 2 months to find another. I found a few, but anything more than that I will have to discuss privately.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I still miss the 770 form factor. :'(

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Eh, I wasn't a big fan of it (I thought it looked cheap) BUT let me qualify my opinion: I think there is still a need for a keyboardless form.

In fact, now that I'm out of Nokia, I am going to sit down and do a serious design of how I think one should look.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Nonsense. The N800 looks cheap. The N810 is better, but the 770 is the finest of them all.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

did you apply to the pandora project? after all, you know what works, you understand the mentality of the customers, you know how the stuff works.
not sure what role you should have... designer/blogger/community liaison/tester?

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

The N800 doesn't look cheap. It looks like a classy, high-end transistor radio, circa 1963.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Gotta agree with qole. I really, really like the looks of the N800. In fact I think that actually hurt the product with mainstream consumers, because it looked more polished than it was. ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Sorry, I knew that was the situation but my phrasing implied something personal.

It was not intended, just sloppy and I apologise, my bad.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

The first time I read you post something like this, I thought you were being sarcastic, the 770 looking so much more polished than the N800. But I guess everyone has their own opinions, even ones that are wrong. :p

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

I have tried everything:

Nokia N770, Nokia N800, iPhone 3G, Acer One 8,9" Netbook, Thinkpad X61 12,1, Mac Book pro 15,4", usw.

And the result is:

I wait and need urgently an Internet Tablet with Touchscreen (high resolution and 7 - 9" screen size) - with Linux from Nokia or with Mac OS from Apple or with WebOS from Palm. That would be the solution

Prio. 1 - Highspeed WLAN and mobile HSDAP (UMTS) inside

Prio. 1 - Browser with Java & Flash (see iPhone or the new Palm Pre) and Cloud Innovation

Prio. 1 - Skype inside

http://stuff.tv/productimages/908500a8cgt.jpg

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

in other words, a "skype phone"? ;)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

If price matters more than screen resolution and size:

• Eee 701/702
• Hacked-in USB 3G dongle
• Aeeeris cover
• Mer i386, supplemented with regular i386 Java & Flash plugins, Skype, and whatever else.

If not, just grab a U820 instead of modding the Eee.

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Invest - max. 1000 $ - if it is a good Internet Tablet device - no problem

but it must have Bluetooth for Headset and external Keyboard

4" or 5" are bad for serious Internet surfing and work

and I would not - a netbook

No - rather an Google apps Internet Tablet :)

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

sign up for as a dev at google and get a unlocked G1...

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

Re: Where is Nokia - no announcement no product - still in hibernation
 

or maybe beagleboard and a battery ;)

still, skype is a bothersome requirement. sure wish they would enable some kind of generic protocol for third party software...