Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

I think so, though I haven't tested it.

I know two things that could be referent to this:

* A new property in the .desktop files: X-Maemo-Category (for example in the control-panel this property is Main).
* maemo-select-menu-location is deprecated now, and it does nothing.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

X-Maemo-Category sounds promising. it'd interesting to know, though, why the regular "Categories" wasn't used. there's probably something that X-Maemo-Category does differently.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

I think with the new property in the .desktop files it's more freedesktop compliant than with the old system. If there is other technical reasons to use it, I don't know (yet).

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

thats what i meant: it's cool because it looks a lot like the freedesktop-standard. but: there has to be a reason why they didn't use the real freedesktop-property in the first place. maybe you can only use one X-Maemo-Category (which would make sense in the context of such a device) whereas the regular freedesktop-property "categories" is designed to accept a list of items. is that it? is X-Maemo-Category restricted to one value?

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Autobuilder for Fremantle now available. If you have packages uploaded in Diablo extras-devel please follow the discussion in maemo-developers since they might be uploaded automatically to the Fremantle extras-devel repo (and see how many of them build).

Also, I have started a list of Fremantle early ports, trying to offer the most relevant/illustrative link for each of them. Many point to posts to this very same thread. :)

Also good to see that Fremantle app news and screenshots are starting to spread: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/n...to-maemo-5.ars

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Does anyone know how portrait/landscape mode will work (see http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle which links to https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=644)? Will there be a 'default' or 'preferred' mode? With other mobile devices, portrait is the default mode.

How will dialogs work in portrait? The big OK button on the right-hand side will take up even more room in portrait, so do they automatically move to the bottom of the dialog or similar?

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Like Quim says, "Portrait mode will be supported at a platform level in Fremantle, in addition to the usual and default landscape mode. Note that this doesn't mean that all applications will have portrait mode automatically."

Landscape is the default mode, as previously. Applications can provide portrait mode, if it is necessary. Dialogs do look different in portrait, as far as I remember.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Thanks, I should have read the bug more closely to see that landscape was the default. It would be good if developers were encouraged to support portrait, at least, e.g. with a style guide giving help about how to lay out apps in the different orientations.

Does anyone have any portrait screenshots, esp. with dialogs?

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Maybe not so interesting, but here's some screenshots of Leafpad running in Fremantle

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

mikkov: Interesting how the drop-down menu looks mis-aligned, and "Find and Replace" goes outside the button. I wonder why?

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

also, it seems the application is "dimmed" in the background while the application menu is showing. gives the impression of an application that's locked or no longer responding.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Do you mean how the menu is in center instead of left? That's how all menus are placed in Fremantle SDK.

"Find and Replace" just seems to be too long string for the layout. This is exactly same code as diablo version where it works fine.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

anybody knows if there's a reason for this odd placement of buttons in fremantle? it breaks most layouts, always looks close-packed and wastes space above. for all these drawbacks, there must be a reason for these buttons to be where they are.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Probably your right thumb :)

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

i don't see the position of my right thumb changing if the content of the dialog would be above the "find and replace" button, not tucked away to its left.

it looks a little broken the way it is... same as the centered application menu.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

I imagine all will become clear once you have a device in your hands. :)

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

The device will have an automated right thumb controlled with bluetooth ;) The button is this big because the chinese plastic these days can't be trusted to hit smaller target. :D

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

good reason. seeing what's being done here, i'm close to believing it. ;)

otoh, if you think of it, a button along the bottom of the screen would be even bigger (much bigger) and an easier target for chinese plastic bluetooth thumbs. this way, they could even bring back the "cancel"-button and make it less confusing as a result.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Yes please! I need to have it all become clear. Right now.

I'll cover shipping and handling, and I'll sign an NDA;)

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Regarding all the questions about color choices, dialog boxes, and over all "store front" issues... Has a theme maker been released yet?

Having been involved at this level of the SDK for a number of cell phone models it has been my experience that the colors used in the SDK are almost never used in the as shipped product, at times quite a few widgets seen in the SDK never make it to production, and buttons, dialog boxes, and icons are seldom finalized until a theme maker has made the rounds so that tweaks can be made.

The amazing thing here is that we are all privy to, and can provide meaningful input based on an Alpha SDK provided by the dang manufacturer and not leaked or stolen by a some character/hacker months after it is relevant to anyone. :)

This level of involvement with the eventual users of this device by Nokia is a new approach by any major manufacturer and I enjoy watching it develop and wish all a great success.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

konttori's working on it, but it seems likely that he'll hold off until the beta when the full UI is released (rather than surgically removing features of Theme Maker to match what's in the current alpha release).

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

What if we start a new thread concentrating on this dialog layout issues. This thread is getting wide and long.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

For the dialog layouts, the idea there was to get more vertical space for dialogs, while at the same time doing a change that could be done for the Fremantle scope and timeframe. Yes, horizontal space is therefore reduced, but since we're pretty much getting rid of all the split screen UI designs anyway, vertical space is more useful than horizontal space.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

How about this:
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/4...tlerecolor.png

That way you save up on horizontal and vertical space, and still have a big area for the button to touch it with your thumb.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Well yes, in theory :)... If you would have always only one button there and wouldn't mind the geeky vertical text. But there can be 3-4 buttons in that area, and people generally prefer to read horizontally. I'm of course very much biased, but I think that the new dialogs and notes look ... much better than the old ones, on the final hardware.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

... like "cancel".

anyway, the last word on the UI pobably was spoken long ago. I didn't see any encouragement or even friendly interest in this thread when improvements were discussed. - So either the final thing will be totally different and absolutely breathtaking, anyway, so that it's no use discussing this alpha-UI... or we'll have to count on Mer (or future versions of Maemo) to iron things out.

I still hope what we're seeing isn't it but something hastily put together to make a public alpha possible at all without revealing even a tiny bit of the final UI.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Short video demonstration of Maemo 5 Alpha :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiNF4C1p030

The application manager doesn’t work for me, and the Fremantle extras-devel repository doesn’t list the available packages trough the web, so I only showed in the video the apps that I know that are already in the repository.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

There are 6 buttons there in the screenshot. ;)

imho...

there can be even 2 vertical buttons on the side and it'll still be useful. And a dialog box doesn't need much more buttons, especially if "cancel" is "click outside". Also it's better to have a long vertical button where the caption fits as to have a small horizontal one where it's either abbreviated or goes outside of it's boundaries.
On my "old and deprecated" device I can use very efficiently the whole right side of the screen with my thumb. Reading a few button caption vertically won't be that bad or you can put some meaningful icons instead.

I can't understand why you want to have a tiny button (which one has to "click" with a thumb) and huge empty space that's not used for information display or anything else. If you want it so badly, stretch the button to take the whole empty space on the right.

Right now all the arguments are settled "you users are wrong, on the final device you'll be able to see the bigger picture (which is secret right now and we can't tell you, but it'll be awsome)". We're presented with an Alpha, which in the "normal world" means "we're open for suggestions, discussion and feature requests", but at this moment I don't see a lot of interest from nokia in that regard. We're only told to have "faith" that "nokia knows best".
I hope that you can see where the frustration comes in the users. And I really hope, that when the final device is in our hands you might be more inclined to listen to people's suggestions. ;)

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Note that the apps demoed are straight ports from Diablo or the Linux desktop, not optimized for Maemo 5. This includes Maemopad, that was included in the alpha as an example of an app that works just recompiling. Even the Application Manager has got the minimum adaptations for the new UI.

But this is the first Fremantle screencast I'm aware of. Thanks!

PS: I'm going to open a new thread right now about the dialog box UI. Give me some time.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Well, aesthetically I would consider vertical text to be a disaster, especially when there would be more than one button on that area. It is not a scalable solution anyway.

You don't want to do a design where the total width of the available content area on the left would depend on the amount of buttons on the right (where each new button would make the available area slightly narrower). There can be cases where the content presentation on the left is the same for multiple dialogs, possibly with different amount of buttons on the right.

There are some limitations in how much we are able to discuss at this stage, sorry about that. Once the beta and the final product comes out, it's easier to say more. Anyways, I still believe that this here is one example of the discussion part of the alpha release. :)

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Actually the right place to discuss the the dialog box was not a new thread but

Dialog button position/layout changed
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4183

The quotes are yours. :)

This SDK represents the first *public* alpha release of the Maemo 5 UI, but such UI has gone through an extensive period of development and testing, including user testing and specific usability testing. Briefly said, regular users were happy.

Does this mean that the doors for feedback are closed? Of course not, but this doesn't mean that we will automatically accept the conclusions made in this thread based on (screenshots of) straight Diablo / Linux desktop ports in an SDK. ragnar and I are providing arguments about why we think the changes are good.

And you must realize that you are not regular users either. Of course Till misses a Cancel button. He wrote the code for that! :) But is the average Maemo 5 user going to miss it? Are you going to miss it the day after you get your new device? We think you won't.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...1&d=1237061656

I would say not bad for a straight port of a Linux desktop application (with not the best HIG implementation in that dialog box?).

- Rename "Find and replace" for "Replace"
- Change the checkbox "Replace all at once" for a "Replace all" button to go under the "Replace" button.

and the dialog will improve significantly. Note that those changes are probably good for the desktop version too, so no need to fork. At least Gedit and OpenOffice.org treat Replace/Replace-all this way.

Said that, something that would be good to check with the UI designers is what to do with button label texts longer than the button itself. Seing the text going off the button is really bad so there is room for improvement there, I guess. Either the button accepts more than one line of text or cuts the text. I will ask, but if someone wants to file a bug to keep track it will be appreciated.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

What you are seing are basically Diablo or Linux desktop apps recompiled for Fremantle. I wonder whether the it you are missing is caused for that or is it really because the Maemo 5 UI is not matching your expectations. If the latter, can you describe your expectations?

To be clear, let's split the Maemo 5 UI:

- System UI: home, status bar, task launcher, task switcher... anything happening "outside" the applications. As said in the alpha sdk announcement, there are some pieces still missing here.

- Optimized application UI: what you get squeezing the new UI elements following the guidelines (that will be released as soon as they are ready, not yet). We haven't seen anything yet, but Hildon is alrady providing all the elements for the developers willing to give it a try.

- Legacy application UI: all the elements kept to ease the compatibility between Diablo & Linux desktop apps. And this is what all these straight recompiles are using.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

not matching expectations.
Yes: "Wow!"

I knew from the information I had before that the Maemo5 UI wouldn't be one I would love to work with - simply because I'm the "my N800 is my laptop and runs Gnumeric" type of user and I understood you're not heading my way. (Which is OK, you got me under your spell meanwhile and I'll move your way if I have to.)

But (or rather: Therefore) I also expected the Maemo5 UI would make me go "Wow!" looking at it, if not using it. Clever design, revolutionary ideas, best in class, something you look at and say: "Of course it has to be this way! Why didn't I invent this?!"... Something that's just cool, beautiful, sexy. Something that makes St. Jobs want to buy one.

Now we have missing "Cancel" buttons and menus in the wrong places (breaking the most basic rules of graphical UI design), wasted space and strangely re-positioned buttons, squeezed lists and whatnot, all for no apparent reason other than "because we can". (Or so it seems - I wrote above that I still think it all will be different when the real thing's out.)

These are the things I'm referring to when talking about a "Maemo5 UI", not the (mostly missing) part "outside the applications".

What we've seen so far were some screenshots of new widgets (maybe even from a pre-Alpha?) that are particularly uninspired (and no, I'm not referring to theming or the missing labels).
Mostly, however, there's what you call "legacy application UI". Personally, I had expected that they should look as good as on Diablo, if not better. In reality they all look more or less broken, with captions being cut off and lists showing only part of their contents. (see this and this post for bad examples.)

So yes, it's about personal expectations... after all, if I liked Diablo, I should love Fremantle, shouldn't I? Now I find I don't really. All I've got is the hope that as Fremantle will grow out of alpha-stage, it'll grow on me.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

I must say, having the gtk applications composited and running in the new framework has surprised me :)
I'm sure the theming thereof will be tweaked and adjusted until its as comfortable as it can be.

Whats going to be interesting indeed is what we can achieve with clutter itself.
The video vdvsx posted gives a glimpse of this with the system UI (which was totally lost on me until today)

glancing at the capabilities it looks like we may be able to do stuff which I stress and strain to achieve on the 8x0 easily :)

does anyone know how to use the lower level cogl actor classes?
I will need to be able to draw GL lines.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Oh, man, that's too bad! I installed Scratchbox and ran the i386 SDK desktop (are we going to have to wait for the beta before the armel one works?), and that level of UI responsiveness is what I got out of the box.

Perhaps my setup is important: I have an nVidia 8800 series video card and I'm running Ubuntu 8.04.

And by using my x11vnc tip that I gave above, I can use that UI on my N800. It looks at least as good as the YouTube video, and I can use my fingers to do the clicking. The biggest problem on the N800 is the lack of a virtual keyboard.

lcuk: Perhaps you need one machine with a medium- to high-end nVidia card running Ubuntu (at least, dual booting to Ubuntu) to do dev work on Fremantle... You can use x11vnc to forward the display to your touchscreen devices...

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Can I clarify, do you mean "final hardware" or "final UI" or "with our polished applications"?

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

My expectations in 2008 were that the UI would be like Diablo, but better. What do I mean by "like Diablo"? I mean the basic user input/output paradigm that tended to distinguish Diablo/Hildon UI from other mobile based UIs at that time, and which caused my preference for Diablo. Flexibility and configurability, multitasking, utilization of a pointing device, zoom and switch view keys, stylus support, etc. (Granted there was some overlap with previous inactive UIs, but Hildon was distinct) What do I mean "but better"? Quicker switching between tasks, no rendering delays, no scrolling delays, more logical and intuitive menus for more prevalent use cases, and some fatter, finger friendly, buttons are OK. Simple, but vitally important things, that would then work appropriately and not with the limitations of the previous HW generation.

My expectations are now more like optimistic hopefulness because of previous comments on this forum that it is difficult to simultaneously support finger-friendly with other UI paradigms, and that some distinguishing elements of Hildon may be dropped (if not from Maemo, then from the next device). If I look at Maemo 5 UI, will I instantly recognize that it is based on an updated and improved version of Hildon, and not as similar to Ubuntu Mobile or iPhone or Pre? I am beginning to doubt that. There's been enough said about significant changes that Nokia's idea of better is a subjective reworking of the UI which may or may not be my idea of better (and might in fact be drastically different).

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Like I said, put some icon instead of text. I don't mind having vertical text, but that's probably me.

No, you got me wrong.
Excuse my crude mock up, but I'm in a hurry right now.
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4...tlerecolor.png
You can have only one big button on the left or right (like in my old mock up), or have them both at the same time. That way you can have one action with the left thumb and a different action with the right thumb. Or you can have a maximum of 4 buttons on the dialog if they're split in half (like I numbered them there) and you'll still have "cancel" as "click out". That makes 5 actions utilizing the same space that you have now in your dialogs, but with more convenient and efficient thumb navigation, because the buttons are bigger.
I have too made my own usability testing on my n800 with me as the only tester. And I'm really happy with it! So you can say that my usability testing was 100% successful :p

Well anyway, that's my idea, having the limited information that's presented to us. ;)

Happy with the Alpha UI that we see now, or with a mock up of the *final UI* installed on the next device?
That's a very important question, because I don't think that they would be happy if they had to use the UI as we see it now. That's why some of us here are not happy. :)

Well but that's all we have! Give us a mock up of the "final UI", give us an inside how the new device would look like, be designed and used (with both hands, with thumbs and a hw keyboard, with eye tracking, accelerometer navigation, mind reading), give us some example apps that are designed specifically with Fremantle in mind.
That's the only way you can get meaningful feedback. We can't be of help if we don't have enough information. But like I said, I'm not really sure that nokia wants such feedback from us.

Re: Maemo 5 Alpha SDK released
 

Tested with the final UI, and/or as good simulations as were available the time, naturally. Alpha release wasn't really an UI showcase by any means. The beta SDK is coming "soon'ish" and will give you a better idea on things. We can't be giving mock-ups before that, sorry.

Then again, you're completely right about the example apps and so on. Actually we were discussing this exact topic over lunch with qgil. Things tend to make more sense if they are explained. :)