Originally Posted by Laughingstok (Post 487117)

There is no burying my head in the sand. I can guarantee you I use my Nokia the way it was meant to be used. Business IT-Professional, and I have zero problems with it. The things people complain about I consider "fluffware" problems. I personally don't give a **** if the media player doesn't hold a playlist (which apparantly it does, but I've never investigated it). I didn't buy it to listen to music. I can buy a cheap ipod for that.

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 487108)

It does seem that a lot of die hard Maemo people are burying their heads in the sand.

...

Sorry Im not trying to be antagonistic, I just want to improve things.

Originally Posted by MontyBravo (Post 487585)

however , email : the most basic thing to get right. its poor. and this is not just one person commenting on this but a number of persons, its has been on a number of threads.

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487723)

Works fine for me. ;)

Really though: how many is that out of the whole, and how many in that set are failing to configure properly?

Data without context is noise.

Originally Posted by MontyBravo (Post 487751)

ah gotcha, your fine, everyone else must be talking out of their arse?

I am talking about configuring pop3. there is hardly a lot that can go wrong as far as a user not configuring properly....

To be honest its not worth arguing but if 5 users (me being one) all have the same unresponsive email client, and are not happy this is good enough in my opinion to suggest this problem is wide spread (apart from quite a few posts on this forum about the slow email client problem).

To be fair you have ignored the entire context of my post to argue that everyone is not complaining, therefore it must be fine.

Am i a troll ? feel free to ban me if I am lol

MB

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487757)

You completely misread what I said Monty. Ironic.

Oh, and it's utterly impossible in a case like this for the experiences of 5 users to be any where NEAR widespread. Completely defies statistics and probability.

Originally Posted by Laughingstok (Post 487424)

So I got a perl script proxy working on the n900 to listen on whatever port I want to and forward all traffic to whatever remote machine on whatever remote port.

This essentially means the n900 can now be used as a proxy server from anywhere, to anywhere.

And it's mobile.

:D

The difference between someone who wished the n900 was more user-friendly and someone who hacks around on it, is summed up in this simple perl proxy script. The fact that I can do that on the n900.

An HTC, iPhone, Droid, etc are all probably better suited for people who want flare.

I'll take the mobile proxy server. :D

I can't sum up the "mindset" any better than this I suppose. :(

Originally Posted by daperl (Post 487706)

This seems like borderline hysteria.

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487723)

Works fine for me. ;)

Really though: how many is that out of the whole, and how many in that set are failing to configure properly?

Data without context is noise.

Originally Posted by colnago (Post 487442)

Are you saying the Pre and Android has basics right? If so, I know some Pre and Droid owners (since Android 2.0 is the new kid on the block, as is Maemo 5) and they'd beg to differ.

Spend 2 days on this Droid forum, and tell me that their platform is without issues...after 2 updates:

http://androidforums.com/motorola-droid/


Again, people are still saying that email isn't working correclty (e.g.., duplicate messages, no sync, missing folders, no connection for some providers, deleted messages won't delete "from device" etc.). Verizon had a 2-page bug list after Droid's release,

http://www.electronista.com/articles...s.in.december/

*images sniped*


and things are still broken. How is it any different or better, than what Nokia is doing? Taking in consideration that Nokia has to support not only hardware, but software as well (vs. Google/Motorola)

Originally Posted by dharder (Post 487778)

I don't know if it makes any difference, but I have to reboot every day or two. And when I am stuck on a web page, it just drags the computer down. Same thing with watching a video. I am viewing DVD-quality videos and it seems to take all the juice it can to watch (which is expected) but even after I finish watching the movie it takes a while for it to catch up.

We'll see with future firmware updates. I am looking forward to a more mature application set (like mail, conversations) but we'll get there. It's still a great phone!

Originally Posted by MontyBravo (Post 487765)

Not at all, I am providing context, its not noise. Its a failing of the device which has been reported not just by the odd end user.

Do you understand maths ?

Only a small number of the userbase will report a fault to this forum

so a small number of complaints = a larger number of people having problems within the user base.

This forum is not the only channel for fault reports...

Simple!

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 487773)

What are you going on about? This is an N900/Maemo forum - the vast majority of people in here have N900's for a reason, they obviously have money to afford any device and chose an N900 I dont think you need to preach to others what is so good about it..

err what?

This is exactly what we are talking about - Maemo people need to open their eyes - I sincerely hope Nokia are otherwise we are in trouble.

Have you read the reviews? The blogs? the comments on the forums? The broad opinion is positive.. but that it needs improvement, how can you come to any other conclusion?

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487791)

I am a data analyst by profession. Do you want to go head to head over math and analytical skills?

You're still not grasping your error, but that's fine. You're in good company it seems.

As for "small number of complaints = a larger number of people having problems within the user base" -- that's beyond absurd. I suggest you read up on statistics, particularly vis-a-vis quality assurance.

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487796)

Have you read any of MY reviews?

If you had, you'd be embarrased about your kneejerk assumptions.

Here, I'll help you out: click on my professional blog link below and read the "connecting on the surface" article.

I'm being very, very objective here. No preaching whatsoever... except maybe about the beauty of employing reason in arguments.

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487791)

I am a data analyst by profession. Do you want to go head to head over math and analytical skills?

You're still not grasping your error, but that's fine. You're in good company it seems.

As for "small number of complaints = a larger number of people having problems within the user base" -- that's beyond absurd. I suggest you read up on statistics, particularly vis-a-vis quality assurance.

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 487803)

So you would take the opinions of a Maemo forum over those of the average user, the general public? That is who Nokia should be listening to. We are the geeks/enthusiasts - we are the minority - we are not the ones who make money for Nokia. (Im in marketing;))

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487814)

I think you need to take a deep breath and slow down. I'm not sure where you're getting your notions, but they're not from me.

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 487809)

a) Where did I say you were preaching? Was my comment about preaching made to you..

b) My kneejerk assumptions? What kneejerk assumptions - please clarify to someone who has had the N900 since release and to someone what actual kneejerk assumptions I have made. Ridiculous.

c) Whats with the bloody defensiveness - is saying the software need improvement really that bad.

Originally Posted by MontyBravo (Post 487810)

Good company , it seems that if its not your opinion it has to be incorrect, data analyst ?

and you do not accept that problems are often not reported , therefore you need less a % of the user base to report a problem to consider it represents a larger majority,

this of course is amplified by the fact this is not the only channel of such reporting and most people will complain to the service provider or provider of the device, not a community forum. They will seek resolution of the problem from someone who might be able to resolve it...

and as you know as a mod a small % of active members of the site compared to visitors which of course backs up the point that most will not bother to post the negative (or positive of course) experiences.

But of course. I am wrong. 5 out of 5 persons, but just be a blip, a bad batch of devices. As are all the other comments on the email and the tearing on the ui e.t.c. All made up and isolated cases.

lol

MB

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487827)

Yes, you actually are wrong. But as I told your tag-team partner, I'm done trying to shine the light. Take comfort in your beliefs, and have a nice day.

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487824)

You edited your post after I quoted. Nice. ;)

Odd... I see the defensiveness coming from your direction. I'm being very calm and patient with a couple of guys ranting their heads off with some very disingenuous points.

But that's enough for today. You both continue to grossly misunderstand almost every word I type. Continuing with that would be foolish. So if you're looking for a semantical win, you've got it. Enjoy!

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 487842)

Not sure what you mean, if I edited, I edited within 30 secs Id guess, hence the post not acknowledging the edit.

err yeah I am a little heated because Im frustrated that some people cant seem to take any for of criticism about the N900. You post below, effectively discounting a lot of the criticism of the N900 as 'noise' seems rather closed minded to me. I understand there are a lot of issues and conflicting reasons for such problems however I find a lot of problems seem to be batted away with the response, but mine is fine (Im referring to many people who have posted in this thread - your comment was obviously made in jest..I hope;))

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487883)

Ok, that approach got me to change my mind on further replies.

If I sold 100 devices, and 5 people complained, that means 95 didn't. Clear non-complaining majority. What's hard to get from that is the detail-- how many in that majority complained elsewhere? How many are easier to please? How many lucked into a good lot?

Originally Posted by MontyBravo (Post 487913)

Your a data analyst and your honestly state this as a factual basis ? shocking!

Let me explain my comments.

Non reports do not dictate the amount of product errors. Yes complaints will become more forthcoming in fault based threads. There is a user barrier to starting a post being negative in a community based on the device. One someone has started with faults others will feel more at home in discussing this.

Anyone that reads the forum will note that any negative comments are bashed (as well as being sensibly discussed by forum members).

You are of course correct that the user experience will be dictated by expectations (well actually im putting that out there to be honest lol),

BUT!

simply put again , just to make it clear,

this is not the only reporting channel and the large majority of owners will not be reporting in this forum.

Its also the case that only a small amount of people which actually have faults will bother to report them on here.

that means that a small number of people reporting faults have a greater statistical importance and weight.

So to summarise your point I have quoted is not correct. I am sure since you are a data analyst you understand "weighted" data and the impact this has. This is what I am referring to. Hopefully i am using the correct terminology? I would imagine the meaning is clear.

And I do agree the data means a lot more with tight data control, but this does not invalidate user response on this forum.


I do understand you get lots of trolls on here. I am actually not one of them , please feel free to explain how my logic is incorrect. Not in one reply to me have you attempted to do this. And I dont need you to preach but thanks for the thought ;)

cheers,

MB

Originally Posted by Texrat (Post 487883)

Ok, that approach got me to change my mind on further replies.

I already explained this in the thread once but I'll try again...

First, it's a mistake to try to glean too much from a talk forum anyway... especially in this context. Only people with problems report problems! And they tend to congregate in threads where problems are reported (usually started by a problem reporter). This creates the illusion that the majority has problems. But that's an error of perception, and it defies reason.

If I sold 100 devices, and 5 people complained, that means 95 didn't. Clear non-complaining majority. What's hard to get from that is the detail-- how many in that majority complained elsewhere? How many are easier to please? How many lucked into a good lot?

Trying to apply significance to forum complaints tends to be foolhardy. No serious QA guy or statistician will give a thread full of rants much weight. There need to be the proper controls, the proper contexts-- including production details, product usage, user expectations, etc. It's not as simple as "5 guys report a problem".

That said-- significance CAN be found in low numbers where catastrophic failure is involved... like the usb breakage I reported. And sure enough, more reports showed up quickly.

But for vague, non-fatal complaints like "slowness", etc, those are rarely indicative of a universal problem UNLESS there's a clear majority reporting it. Again, that was the case with internet video on previous devices-- and the complaints were qualified by the revelation that hardware shortcomings were involved.

I'm not dismissing your concerns at all. I've had issues with products and it's not fun. All I've been trying to do is add perspective here, and it's been unfairly misconstrued. As one of your council reps I love to help you guys, even the noisemakers-- but if you're gonna abuse that and give me unwarranted grief, where's my motivation?

Try assuming the best about people upfront instead of the worst. That's my preaching for today. ;)



So is making unfair assertions about someone's intent.

PS Calling my argument disingenuous is rather insulting.

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 488410)

Im not sure why we are getting to a statistical issue, my point that I have made an over and over is that the software just isnt good enough at present imo - which opinion concurs with the majority (going by reviews, blogs, this forum etc).

Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 488464)

good job, you just ruined your reputation. (unless you manage to find respectable sources to back your words up)

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 488484)

After this thread Im concerned I have anyway - you want some sources you say...?

Engadget:



http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/nokia-n900-review/

Originally Posted by Lullen (Post 486565)

But why does it have to be like this?

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 488484)

After this thread Im concerned I have anyway - you want some sources you say...?

Engadget:



http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/19/nokia-n900-review/

Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 488485)

one down, n+1 to go....

Originally Posted by kwotski (Post 488513)

Can't resist dipping in again. From your source:
..

The only two quotes I can find in that article that refer to speed. The word "slow" does not appear in the article. What was the topic of this thread again?

Anyway, Engadget's summary is probably worth quoting. I more or less agree:


Personally, I'm firmly in the "geeky weekend hobby" camp. The existing functionality of the phone qua phone is quite enough for my simple telephonic needs. Beyond the browser and basic stuff like the camera and whatnot, the appeal of the device very much inheres in it being a relatively open linux system and the possibilities that provides. I've had no speed issues that I can remember, no crashes, just one reluctant-to-boot issue fixed by removing and replacing the battery.

If I was an average Jill or Joe, I hope I would have read and taken heed of a few informed reviews like the engadget one, before I embarked on a career of "buy and whine".

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 488516)

*sigh* You need to read the thread

Originally Posted by chrisp7 (Post 488516)

When I have time I will(might) try and find a load of sources.You know full well this is ridiculous I claim that the N900 is lacking in many basic features/needs bug fixing.

Originally Posted by ossipena (Post 488527)

fixed your statement.