Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

How on earth you and fremantle are seeing this like that? You have really flexible morale or some twisted logic going on. Or are you just trolling and not really even trying to understand what we are talking here?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Um; "Don't" I would imagine? That rather seems to go without saying. In any community that has rules, it's pretty much a given that you're not supposed to ignore or circumvent them just because you can.

Yet. They'll get it fixed, and even if they don't that's between Nokia and their customers; maemo.org bears no responsibility for that.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

this thread turned into a witchhunt thats why..the mods could easily edit nearly all replies except from him and the officials on here.leaving it a bit more civalised

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

So what is the penalty?

It has already happened and a discussion took place already about it.

Now what? You want to ban him off the system indefinitely? On what basis?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

What he did - wrong (though technically it should never have been able to happen in the first place if the correct security had been in place)

WHY he did it - entirely Nokia's fault. The piss poor excuse for a market MONTHS after the device has been released is a continuing source of embarrassment.

I bought both the games. Not because I think they are amazing games (though they are quite fun in short breaks) But because I believe commercial interest is required in order to make this platform (and the new MeeGo platform) successful.

Ask yourself - how long have we been waiting for Sygic's navigation software, which we know to be ready, to be released, the underlying reason for the delay continues to be a lack of a distribution process through Nokia.

It is a sad state of affairs and the people who pay the price are not Nokia, but the developers and end users. Perhaps we should be directing our ire at them rather than all this vitriol at a dev.

PS: Its interesting to note that some of the most vehement callers for his head are also some of the largest whiners about this platform and phone.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

So what if he had paid all his fortune for Nokia's "coming soon" store. Why on earth that would make any justifications for his actions? I do not care if he is Dalai Lama or superman. Good deeds, being nice, giving to community, losing your family or any other misfortune do not give person any special level. Everyone is on same level. There is no some karma level that where you can subtract after doing something like this.

.edit
oh. That might be bit harsh. But i´m just trying to point out that behaviour like this is highly unacceptable and whether or not you are basically trying to do good. I´m really a person who accepts apologies but i hate people who do not take this kinds of matter really seriously.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I dont' have time to read through this whole thread right now but please visit the thread about the broken testing implementation and consider voicing your opinions about the need for an official testers group (should you feel this case is an example of why that should be implemented as described in wiki). That one change to the current process would both expedite and improve it by making this kind of thing impossible, while not making a "popular vote" approach to testing useless as an assurance of QA.

I will unsticky the SiO2 interactive thread in Games. This is not acceptable behavior.

Edit: and holy cow, reading the last few posts makes me wonder if i should lock the thread. Per Reggie's hands-off approach, it's only for extreme cases and I don't have time to verify it for the moment so if you feel it should receive more moderator attention please use the report post feature.

Edit2: Thread moved to community.

Edit3: Ok, i read most of the posts and this is fair discussion about an issue very relevant to the community. No locking seems warranted, and i still feel good about unstickying the publisher's "Courtesty thread" in Games. As has been stated, this is a simple case of someone not playing nice with the privileges granted and to continue to give privileged status to a person who shows no respect for the rules in place would be silly. I don't like the testing process myself (vis the thread i link above) but if everyone circumvents established safeguards just because they don't agree with them, there can be no organization; if they don't abide the community procedures there can be no community. Your right to swing your fist ends where it reaches my nose, etc...

I make no statement on whether i think the invitation (and yes, it is an invitation: not a right) to upload packages to Extras should be revoked. IMO that's a decision for the council based on their careful consideration.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Nokia will pay the price when customers loose trust in their products and abandon it. They're trading on a name.

apologies for the off topic

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Ok - so you are a dev, you have a product ready to go to market. As we all know first to market is key in any new platform. You pay your money to use the "store" only to find that despite taking your money - they wont take your app. You then discover that there is a community supported repository where your app will get exposure, but in order to get into it you need 10 approvals, apps can and have been waiting months to get those approvals. Keeping in mind, to the best of my knowledge, there is to be no vetting process by Nokia for apps in the store - even if it was to be functioning correctly. So you find a way to approve your own app - not even bothering to really hide the fact, but not pointing it out either.

Perhaps not the most transparent of actions, but not warranting the rabid response of the moral police either.

Oh and in response to your earlier statement about living a place where you can leave your wallet etc unattended. I would very much like to know where that is - I have lived in 5 countries on 3 continents and in none of them would I have left my wallet alone for even 30 seconds

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I don't know. It's not an easy question, but it's clearly one that needs to be answered, hence the suggestion of getting a view from the Community Council.

That's a possibility. The arguments for that seem fairly straightforward:
- He can't be trusted, and untrustworthy software should be kept out of the maemo.org repositories for the good on maemo.org
- There needs to be a clear penalty otherwise we're just inviting similar abuses in future.

I think it probably would be better all round if we could find a way back from this, but it's hard to see how that can happen until or unless SIO2 appears to recognise the wrongness of their actions, and I don't think they really do. I don't think it would be a good idea to let it slide with no action at all though - the maemo.org project and repositories have a (deserved) reputation for shipping good quality, properly QA-ed packages, and that will go away if maemo.org is seen to condone packagers circumventing the mechanisms that are set up to achieve that.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

How in the world does keeping such issues behind closed doors help the people who actually shelled out their hard earned cash to buy the device though?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Can you tell me what the QA process is for apps that go into the OVI store? (Assuming it actually worked). I can't remember ever seeing one.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

nokia fcuked that for you the moment you paid for phone mate...and members of this community knew about their plans...so dont make out that its one sided!

you are tellin me that this could not have been edited into about 6 or so posts???

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

There is no security in the world which can prevent someone from registering multiple accounts just for voting. This is pretty obvious. Whatever conditions are added (must have posted, must have done this, or that) can easily be circumvented the moment you know about them.

Thus, trust in people to not abuse the system is needed. Breaking this trust is, to me, unforgivable. Sorry SIO2, I won't touch your applications. Ever.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The way I see it is that the real problem is that the Ovi Store is not up and running the way it should be. If there were a decent way to distribute apps for Maemo 5, I'm sure sio2 would have takken it instead of fooling us.

Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with a lot of you guys that his action are totally inappropriate and therefore cannot be tolarated.

All I'm saying is that if I were to develop an app for maemo and had spent a month of my precious time developing something only to come to the coonclusion that there is no way to properly distribute my app (of course he should have checked if there was a way, but the way I say it I'm glad he didn't otherwise he might have never started to develop his apps), I don't know what I would have done ...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Come oooon. Did you see his first packages there. He got 10 votes in one day from community members! I didn't have to wait for months for approval. And what you described is in my opinion highly unaccebtable behaviour and I really really hope that I will not do business with people with minds like that. (Actually reminds me a bit one of my friends who is lawyer :| Not in good way.)

Are you trying to say that I´m trying to be highest priest of rightfulness and sinless soul? F no. I´m just pissed because I bought his software, I gave feedback, I gave vote for one of his Hoops versions and then happens this.

I was trying to say that i can leave my wallet to my jacket's pocket and leave jacket almost where ever without fear of getting robbed. Actually i have dropped my wallet and my keys once and got them back from police station. I have done this also to other people belongings. I´m not saying that everyone is like that, but i was trying to tell what kind of person I´am and why this might feel bad to me. So that people like you and others who do not take this so seriously could understand different people.

.edit Oh and my country you can see below my name.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Really? Because I enter a lot of online give aways and they always seem to be pretty on the ball when it comes to stopping me entering from multiple emails. We could have at least TRIED.

So from your moral tone I take it you have never done anything remotely questionable to gain an advantage in any situation.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I can't. I'm not sure there even is one, but that's completely irrelevant. There is a process for the maemo.org repositories, and it was abused.

You seem to be asking a lot of questions, but not really putting forward your own point of view. Do you think SIO2's behaviour was acceptable, and what, if anything do you think should be done about it?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Hi, new and first post here.

Doubt there will be much more from me.

I think the N900 is a great device and i am both lucky and happy to have it.

I have been lurking in this "community" for a while now since getting the device and have been shocked at the behaviour of some people on this forum, some really need to take a step back and take a look at themselves. Maybe its just a consequence of the open-source ideals and belief patterns that cause people to behave this way. I don't know and do no wish too either.

Suffice to say to lose a developer through such a public ousting for such a small user-community is horrific.

The fact is, that unlike Nokia he tried to explain his action's and communicate with this community. It got him no were except abuse from the majority. Some call for thicker skin on his part, but when you are putting your own (metaphysical) sweat and blood into somthing its hard not to take things personally.

I will continue to enjoy my N900 web browsing capabilities (looking foward to flash 10.1 one day too!) and whatever apps make it onto the N900 from maemo.org.

But rest assured that from the outside looking in the problem lies closer to home then most would wish to admit. Open community? Bring your pitch-forks, tar and burn them all at the stakes.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Finland - ok never made it that far.

You say you bought his software. Were you happy with it? Did you in any way have cause to believe that it was being produced by a moral decrepit?

Look I agree what he did was not exactly Kosher, but you were perfectly willing to install his "questionable" software before this with little or no thought to the vetting process.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Actually I have stated in at least 3 of my posts that I think what he did was wrong, but in no way warrants the response of the rabid mob.

As far as what should be done about it. Remove the approval for the app, let him get 10 valid votes - move and and forget about it.

And the vetting process for the OVI store is completely relevant because it ties back to the fact that if the app had shown up there people would have happily installed it without question. The software would still have been made by the same guy that you are all vilifying now, it would still have been the same software and no one would have cared.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

What do you think the result would have been if he had circumvented Nokia's system security to insert his product into the Ovi store, bypassing whatever QA/contractual processes exist?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Bratag,
Only thing i´m pissed is his behaviour in voting and his lightness on this matter.

You see this as you see and I see it as I see. I respect your point of view and I really trying to understand how you are seeing this as so lightly. Or at least I have that expression.

And still Nokia's store has nothing to do with this matter. Their system and policies are COMPLETELY different from this place. Are you trying to play mind games and propose other scenarios how this could have gone? Still nothing to do with this matter.

.edit
I really hope that we can learn something from this and fix this whole mess. I really want game developers for this platform and that's why I paid for his software and gave feedback.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

That's simply not true. I always tend to treat proprietary packages from non community sources with a greater degree of suspicion than ones from properly maintained open repositories because they're frequently much lower quality. That's true on full-size linux systems, and I expect it to be the case once Ovi gets up and running too.

A package's presence in the maemo-extras repo is something of a stamp of approval, and one that Ovi apps simply won't have. It's up to each end-user to decide whether they trust Ovi, and indeed whether they trust maemo.org. However, someone that's decided to trust maemo.org on the basis of it's published QA policies should not be tricked into installing something that hasn't legitimately passed through those processes.

It's completely unfair to assume that everyone would trust a package equally regardless of where it comes from, because they just don't.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I see a lot of people here taking the high-ground - wont touch your apps with a barge-pole, breaking trst is unforgivable and all that.

I admire the moral rightiousness of members and it is an essential part of a good human being - but having a moral compass is even more essential - where and how much to exercise your moral rightiousness is an important part of the moral fibre.

In this case one lone developer making commercial apps is all eager to publish his apps to make some money of his hard work - and lacking any other avenue chooses to break some rules (which were not enforced) to publish his apps SOONER than would have been the case.

Its not like he published apps which were never to be published (like porn maybe). He just skipped the QA process.

And then being a human (as we all are), when you are pushed to the wall with you back against it (as some strong language in these thread suggest), he partly tried blaming the system for the errors and partly took the blame himself and apologised for himself in between the blaming part. Ok, he didn't grovel and lay his head down to the floor and apologise profusely. That just seems pretty human when you are against the wall - you do get a bit defensive too.

Lets all be groun-ups and realize that and give a little face cover to him. He did realize what he did was wrong after all. Now lets not ask him to beg for mercy.

Be professional - tell gim he will have to go back with his apps thru the QA process and as normal it will get publsied after the bugs are sorted out. End of story.

And admins - do thank him at least for showing what a poor work was done on the system to implement a gated system of QA process. Now put up the security process and lets move on.

Everytime there is an error on someone part - I see a few members ready to put them to the fire - be it Nokia as a corporation when it fails to release enough info, or fails to deliver the goods or individual members when they fail in a human way. What's up with that ?

As for me - SIO2 - you are welcome to keep developing apps - just please for the sake of good apps - get it QA'd and listen to the feedback.
We will all forget what happened ina few days - till the next issue comes up to rile up the threads.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Then you are making a mistake treating the packages in the extras repo that way. There is nothing that says the votes for packages there have come from people who conduct proper testing. I could quite easily vote for something that I have never even installed.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that you are all treating this as if he has violated some sort of sacrosanct process and I am trying to point out that it is in no way anything of the sort.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Come on, I'm sure you know that there's no real way of blocking you. It's like WEP security, it only keeps away casual usage, not the abusers. Those online giveaways, and this site, can only work if there's a certain level of trust.

What's moral got to do with this? I really don't understand you, or dread123 for that matter. It's just about normal acceptable behaviour. I don't use multiple accounts to vote myself for karma, I don't run off with the money if a shop gives me too much change, I don't run away without leaving a note if my car hits another one in the parking area. That's not about morality IMO, it's about not being a jerk.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

The thing is, you don't know whether they'd have been published in this form or not, that's the entire point of having a testing repository. If the testing process had turned up bugs that needed to be fixed (as it appears there may have been) they would not have been pushed to -extras itself until they were fixed.

You could, but that would be pretty poor behaviour in a community too, and as a general rule this sort of testing approach does actually work in community linux distributions. Things get tested, bugs get fixed, fixed versions get released.

I think that's an excellent point, and one I disagree with entirely. I'm not sure why you think that circumventing the rules and conventions of behaviour of a community is a small deal. These things are important, and people ignoring the conventions just make things worse for everyone. To add to the list of tortured analogies in this thread, it's like dropping litter; it's easier for you than finding a bin, but messes the place up. Choosing to do it is a deliberate statement that your own interests are more important than everyone else's, and while there's nothing to forcibly stop you acting that way, I don't see why other members of a community should be expected to support it.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I tried the Hoops game, I liked it, and I bought it via PayPal. It works well for me. I personally think that commercial developers are good for the platform, and hope more are eventually encouraged to come on board.

With that being said, I am disappointed that the developer tried to circumvent the extras-testing system. I missed what was going on in the main SIO thread, but why couldn't he have just continued to host his own repository, like he was doing before? That would have saved a lot of drama, it seems to me...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I think we made him abondon us... Great... well, my opinion on this is that it is lesser great. This should really have been made more privately...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

What rules? Please point me at them (I mean that honestly I would like to see the extras repos policies).

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Hopefully your are not referring to me. I´m really really kind person and as i said before sometimes too kind. If i were really mad my input would be really something totally different. Maybe my lack of to express myself makes you think that i´m yelling for tar and feathers. But no. Just dissapointed and sad are my feelings.

I hope that SIO2 Interactive just understand how important this issue is. He is human and i´m also and i can understand that sometimes we make mistakes, but when i have done mistakes I have never ever tried to justify my deeds to other people by telling my story. Mistakes are always made, but making them deliberately makes it serious and god help is you make it again deliberately you should burn in hell :)

I´m not so condemnatory person as this might look like.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Hey guys, just do it like real capitalism. Once he gets his product on the line via the normal fashion, buy it, or don't. But let your money do the talking.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Do you think that making good justifys someones questionable actions?

Do questionable actions justify greater good?

In my opinion no. As important is end result is also the way to this result.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

I think people make mistakes when presented with few or no options. I think that the calls here were tantamount to wanting to string him up by his heels for that mistake.
I think If I was a dev (and I am) I would tell this community to shove it directly up their arse for the lack of understanding shown.
I think people need to take a big old step back and realize that it was Nokia that brought about this turn of events by not getting the OVI store into any sort of shape - despite having had months and months to do so.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

No it does not justify his actions, but he deserves another chance (second, and likely a very last chance). It's not rather nice to blame a person like this on a public forum, and he needs money for living, he had a reason, even if what he did was absolutely wrong. He should get (or have gotten) another chance, he did this platform something good afterall. But yeah, if he would spoil that second chance then, that's another story...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

This http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?titl...ting#Promotion was linked to early in this thread. It explains what needs to happen to promote a package from testing to extras. It doesn't actually say that you shouldn't create sockpuppet accounts to vote for your own application, but really, should it have to?

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

So just another 3 votes from the testers group and he could have slipped this decent piece of malware into the sacred repositories? Gee whiz, that was close...

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

Is this the right way to do it?

Analyzing people's morale grounds and motivations and passing your judgements against them?

I certainly don't want to go that far. It can take the discussions to unnecessary topics which are not wholly relevant to what we need here.

I think we should just go back to see what he had done wrong and see what the existing rules say about that.

Re: SIO2 Interactive spamming votes to get his/her applications to Extras
 

*sigh*
I can't say I disagree with what the OP did, and I'm pretty shocked at the behaviour of the dev, but I also think that wrong or not, this sort of response is not good in the long run. We should have some sort of formal process for violations like this (having a ruling from the Council was suggested), in such a way that things like this can be cleared up without an angry mob (albeit a well-intentioned one). For someone who doesn't understand the nature of trust and community in this situation, the response here could easily be overwhelming, and seem unfair; if there was a way to more quietly report things like this, and deal with them through an official channel, we might not have chased him away. Maybe someone should start a new thread to discuss this possibility, if people are interested.