Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

ndi, do you have any idea of the work that goes into one professionally-produced song?

Anyway, your last big post wins for most rationalizations in a single piece.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I'm thinking this wasn't a compliment.... :p

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

The law is the law, its not ok to pirate software regardless of your financial state.

That said, I have torrented half the trash on OVI store because the ******s at Nokia don't know what Paypal is.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I used to use pirate software, partly because living in a third world country it was difficult to get this software legitimately anyway, partly because it's just so damn easy! I now live in the UK and I haven't pirated software in a long time, and I mostly use free open source alternatives anyway. I do download music, but I don't really see it as pirating, because when I download something and I like it then I go and buy a legitimate copy at a record shop, and if I don't like it then I never listen to it again. I certainly wouldn't buy an album if I didn't know already whether I liked it.

I think that if DRM was less restrictive people would pirate less, because if it's more of a hassle to get something through legitimate means, then many people will naturally choose the easier/illegal method.

It's all very well to bring morality into it, but everyone builds their own morality, morality is not universal as many would have one believe. Also things are never black and white.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I don't think Paypal works outside the US and we know that Nokia is focused on the global market not just in the US. I know you want them to do something special for the US and I agree Paypal would be nice.

Still, it's no reason for name calling or stealing.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I don't agree but I understand why you might think that.

Let me ask you then, about music. If you were a musician, you love making music and for you its a joy but also a ton of work to get it just right, you need agents, band members, equipment the whole works. Now let's say you only make $0.05 or $0.10 on every song, iTunes takes 30%, the label gets their cut, so forth and so on and then all that's left for you is a few measly percentages. Now, if you were full-time and the only way of sustaining, you, your family, your children, do you think you'd still be ok with the world downloading your songs for free? Again, I'm talking full-time profession, not just a part-time hobby you do after dinner before you go to sleep.

So when people say, yeah, it just a stupid digital song, it has no value, do you think that would make you feel good after you've poured yourself into your art? You think that's right?

Look, some people get rich, some people don't. When people think Microsoft they think Bill Gates with BILLIONS of dollars, when they think music, they think Michael Jackson with his Hundreds of Millions. The music and software industry employs thousands if not millions of other people who also depend on the revenue.

Sure, there are the rich in any industry, that DOES NOT mean you can steal from that industry as a whole because you're also stealing from the regular workers, not just the big names.

Sorry I just can't seem to get my mind wrapped around taking for free someone else's hard earned work. I'm a photographer so maybe for me I'm more sensitive because my work is digital as well and I don't like it when I hear people say that digital media has no value, and no I am not rich.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Interesting to see the poll results and read the justifications on this discussion.

There was a fully functional, expensive cad/cam 3d software I tried a few years back that was handed out freely. We were encouraged to make copies to take home and give to friends. Their rational was that they wanted maximum exposure and they wanted potential customers to see how great it was.
They said anyone who profited from the software without purchasing it would vigorously pursued and sued.
I felt this was an interesting approach and indeed, many got hooked on it.

Something that irks me in Canada is how pay a 12 cent copyright levy on every blank cd sold based on the assumption that the disc will be used to copy an audio cd. Guilty before charged!
I've been told this is what makes blank cd's more expensive in Canada than blank DVD's.

In a similar vein, check out this interesting story about manufacturers charging to activate features that already exist. http://www.boingboing.net/2010/09/19...-crippled.html

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

[/QUOTE]Getting people hooked has been a tried and tested strategy for getting your software out there. Most software companies have a way to let you try it without anyone having to resort to stealing.

That's a shame. If people didn't pirate, then it would be cheaper for everyone. Why Canada chooses to punish law abiding consumers is strange.

It's a new model. The fact of the matter is you get what you paid for. You pay for 3 cores you get 3 cores. You look at what people are paying for 4 cores and you decide that's too much for you. Fine. 2 years down the line, you things change, you use more resource intensive software. By then you start to think you want to upgrade because your CPU just can't hack it. In this solution, you pay a small fee and then bam, you are upgraded to a faster speed.

When you pay for the fourth core you get more speed. At the end of the day you still get what you paid for. If they decided to just physically break that last core, once you decided you need to upgrade your only option is to replace the chip or the system. In this case, for a small fee it extends the usage of your system by another year or two. Interesting model, no?

I think it's like Cable (if I understand how Cable works). The physical cable actually has data for hundreds of channels but you call up Comcast or whoever and unlock channels you want to watch. It's kinda the same, though this is totally off topic.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Same here in Finland, but it includes almost every blank media you can store something on: CD, DVD, Blueray, VHS, C, memory cards, mp3 players, DVB recorders, etc.
But as I pay for it I might as well copy stuff then.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

The US did the same thing on VHS and audio cassette tapes and IMO it's the most reasonable solution overall.

We were actually going to be prevented from legally taping over-the-air content. The legal compromise was that we could do so for personal use only, and a small fee would be assessed to recordable media since the most common use of the media was for recording copyrighted material. I'm willing to bet that is equally true for CDs and DVDs.

Of course, some of that fee should go directly to the content creators. In cases where a decent amount does not, to me that's an injustice.

SOMEhow revenue must be captured and distributed for content creators. It's only fair. I'm willing to entertain better solutions than what's in place now.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

True. What was interesting in this case was that there were no time restrictions, you could update and download post-processor files and you could generate drawings and g-code.

I agree, the intel model is very interesting.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

In the case you mentioned I think there are only two uses, educational and for profit. Personal for fun usage doesn't seem like a normal scenario.

As for the Intel model, Sun looked at doing this a while ago. You know when they had big iron at 72 processors. They'd sell a fully populated Server and then you licensed what you needed. When you're not using it, and you're just idling away, you pay the minimum, but when you were on a big project and needed all of the processors you can pay for more. In this case you turned on and off monthly as you needed (if I remember correctly). I think they also managed upgrades to your system and your memory too so it was as automagic as possible. It was kinda like the cloud model but you had the server in your server room not theirs.

In the intel model as long as you pay the same for 3 cores (with or without the potential for upgrade) I think there's a case to be made.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Every time a new recording medium comes out the same issues occur.

I do agree strongly with artist/writer/developer getting his just reward, sadly they are still ripped off with alarming frequency

The other sad justification in this pervasive pattern of stealing intellectual property is that it's EASY!

I wonder, who of you would borrow or steal a nice car if the keys were in it and no one was around?

Those of you who wouldn't should rethink your justification for stealing software etc.

Those who would..........well, a thief is a thief.:)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

s/rationalization/justification

And while I agree with your analogy (see my previous book example that no one wanted to touch), many claim that improper acquisition of intellectual property isn't theft due mainly to the product's "insubstantial" nature. But that argument is a gross failure of logic. Not that anyone cares.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

No Kidding!

If it was that "insubstantial" you wouldn't want it.......even for free.

Sadly most folks moral compass is tied directly to the likelyhood of being caught.

We had an infamous politician state If no one catches you, it isn't illegal. Or words to that effect

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I agree with you, to me music is art and I appreciate that which I find artistically stimulating, and that is why I buy the music of artists I like, and the books of authors I like. But I don't want to buy Music if I am not going to like it. Actually recently I have been using Spotify (instead of downloading) as a means to test whether I like some music before buying it.

Again about the morality aspect, you just described your view of morality, a view which many including myself agree with. But morality is not universal, as we can see by examining people from all over the world outside the more homogenous western culture, and people can have completely different moralities. For example in some tribes of indigenous people in the Amazon, the mother often drowns a newborn child if she already has many children and it is impractical to feed another. We may view this with horror and disgust, but that because of the moral system that we have been brought up with, and to them it is a completely normal and acceptable thing to do, indeed many other species in the animal world do this too.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I fully understand that people ascribe to different types of morality. All I ask is that people put themselves in the other person's shoes and at least try to see from the other people's perspective.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

If you're poor, is it okay to steal things you need?

Same answer.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

In a forum debate, is it possible to change anyone's mind?

Same answer :)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Notice neither of us actually gave the answer. ;)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Don't give it away...

Wait for the prestige...

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Had a good friend say this to me...

"I understand being financially pinched. So they can pirate any software as long as they allow me, who is also financially pinched to have unprotected sex with their mother. I mean... condoms cost a lot!"

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

:eek::eek::eek: Ouch! :eek::eek::eek:

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Most software houses offer "student" versions of software (often with little or no functionality loss) at drastically lower prices. Microsoft packages at most colleges sell for 1/10th the normal shelf price. All you need is a current student ID. If they don't, often emailing the company will get you a "student coupon" for it, or in some cases a free code. (Especially if you mail from your schools .edu domain email.)

That said, no, I don't think it's ok. If they want to charge a student full price, find an alternative. One will exist, and it will be the one that's popular in 3 to 7 years when those students start entering the workforce and have skill with that tool set. (Ask Corel some time about how they lost the battle with WordPerfect.)

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Me neither. Still, going by the dictionary it wasn't a contradiction, either. Besides, a win is a win. I'll take what I can get.

You started from the wrong conclusion that if you can sing you should be able to live from it. I can sing too (I can't really, but who are you to judge?), so I should quit my job and sing full time. As a result, I should be able to live off it.

That's not true. Nor should it be. In any market I can think of at the moment, you have to be good. And if you're good, loads of people want what you sell.

You also made the mistake of assuming a (good) musician lives off selling songs. They don't. They also have videos, concerts, tours, endorsements, all kinds of stuff. And lately, the managing and launching of others for a substantial sum - big names can raise someone from the mud, recommend them and later cash in.

I'm not saying they shouldn't live off it, but arguing that if you can sing and bought the equipment you should be able to live off it is (IMO) incorrect.

It's a failure of understanding. Pirating isn't theft, as per many simple diagrams all over the net saying that the original isn't removed.

The subtlety that's lost here on most of said people is that it isn't theft, but it isn't OK, either. It's not theft and shouldn't be punished as theft, because theft laws were designed to punish and compensate someone for the loss of their property. This doesn't happen in piracy, so, not, it's not theft.

Doesn't keep people from claiming that it's not theft like it's nothing, though.

That alone is worth another thread. If I'm in mortal danger from a person I can kill the sad sap but if I'm in mortal danger from low blood sugar I can't steak a pack of sugar for threat of jail.

Then again, a door is opened for a horde of poor people.

Like I said, not a simple matter.

I have an idea. Not an exact one, but I have SOME idea, and, might I say, just because you pump money in a project like you're trying to wet Sakkara doesn't mean that's how much it costs. Nor does it mean that's how much it should cost. But you're not paying for it, the poor saps are, so, you know, limos all around. How else can they afford another solid gold hum-vee?

That was part of my original rationalization. There are some options out there to give one an idea. You see, my poor 1+1 logic is that if an independent studio makes money on some rates, then a large studio that owns the equipment and employs the people should be able to do it for less. Otherwise, outsourcing.

Assuming you record with an artist, not a duck that refuses to cooperate, you should be able to record a song in an hour - after all, if an artist is any good they should be able to perform live, that is, sing from one end to the other. Assuming no ultra-complex stuff, like 50 members playing independently, it should take a little while.

In actual terms, the equipment is purchased and then broken down and assimilated as expense over the declared course of the object life. Should work for larger studios, after all, it works for smaller ones.

So, what, 1000$ per song? 2000? If *I* record it, I'd go to a studio in that list, take a few hours, then take all the master tracks at home. Use a good editor (16 bit stereo final and 24 bit in-process is more than enough for even the highest quality CDs - not to mention maybe 1% has zero artifacts and hiss in real life). That brings me to the astronomical sum of 200$. Plus 2 per CD. Sell at 4, and my BEP (Break Even Point) is at 100 units sold.

Let's assume I'm the next MJ and I need to mass produce. There are ways to get good prices, say $793 for 500 CDs, jewel case. Or,

80 cents for retail, sealed audio disc.

That means that it costs me $400.000 to go gold, assuming I don't get any volume discount and that I don't own the press. At this level, it matters not how much I stay in the studio, it won't matter if I move in.

A gold record (500K) at 13$ per disk (Amazon) makes 6.5 million. That means that either it costs 6.1 million to "produce" the rest of it or their margin is pretty high.

What does that entail? Keyboard samples? You'd think so, but "24 yodeling classics" is $12.98. What exactly "producing" goes into a yodeling disk?

Screw music. Let's talk people with more to fear from failure. Let's take movies.

Titanic took 200 million to make. A gamble, but no risk no gain.

.

The film made BEP in 15 days or so, and continued to sell like nuts, grossing out at almost 2 billion. Yes, billion.

After such a success, it has been released on DVD, and, 13 years later, the disk is $25. Exactly, what costs and what risk are they soaking in at the moment?

At this point, the only thing that justifies the price is "because you'll buy it anyway".

And we know it's wrong, because we've capped prices before, like communications, gas, and many others I could only find PDF links to.

Some are necessary products. Some are there to help stabilize economy and some protect consumers from blackmailing and other businesses from failing due to cartel pricing.

Maybe if we all unite and found a music-listening company we could get governments to help us stay in business. But then again, if we're a company we could just lobby ourselves, right?

Not that pirating is cool. But I'm not exactly bleeding internally if my version of Titanic ends in .torrent. Now, if the disc was priced at $5, how many would pirate that?

Oh, and, enjoy.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Nice ndi!

You completely ignored marketing in the cd/dvd examples and countless other expenses in bringing music to market. Not to mention the cost of pressing 10,000 cd/dvd's no one wants, or other losses.

Anyway you slice it, you are just attempting to rationalize theft.:(

Oh, if you don't like how rich a performer is, don't buy it or steal it.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Comparing stealing something because you're too poor to buy it to having the legal right to defend yourself from someone attacking you are two completely different things.

We're talking about stealing something straight out.

There may be far flung exceptions to stealing something like someone is chasing you with an axe and you steal a bicycle to get away but again that isn't stealing something because you're too poor, which is what this thread is questioning.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Nope, but it's OK to use alternatives, and in fact, that's the right thing to do.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

You're basing that on rank opinion. I don't care how many contrary documents litter the web. I can spread spam far and wide, too, but that doesn't make the message true.

Based on legal precepts in many states and nations, infringement of intellectual property IS defined as a form of theft. I wish detractors would work harder on changing law rather than filling up the intertubes with disingenuous rationalizations around it.

Now, my long-lost uncle in Nigeria died, and I have to send some money to secure my huge inheritance...

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Actually it's not.

I'm not sure how many time I need to write this. Hopefully I can get my point across. My point is this.

If someone creates something good enough for you to steal and listen to over and over again and keep on your laptop then the argument that it sucks doesn't fly, because you wouldn't steal something you don't want or need.

If the creator makes something you want and asks for compensation, you need to pay.

If someone's music sucked you wouldn't listen to it and it wouldn't be in your media device.
If software sucked, you wouldn't spend the time to download it and use it on occasion and in many cases every day.

People can make fun of Microsoft all day, long, bad code, evil company, the devil incarnate, whatever. But they use it all day long and all day long they're saying, this software is good because I depend on it. Don't like it, don't use it and theft would not be necessary.

BINGO. And by stealing it you're saying you want what they're selling. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.

So? And if they wanted to promote their songs by giving it away for free they would have, but they didn't. And no, not all artist have videos, concerts, tours and endorsements. The big ones? Sure. The smaller ones? no.

By the way, some music artists have to use alternate revenue streams precisely because they can't make money off of music sales. Ever think about that?

I don't disagree, but that wasn't my point. They may not be able to "live off of their music" but what gives you the right to steal from them and prevent them from trying?

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

"Legal" does not define "right" or "wrong". It simply defines Legal, or Illegal.

Just because something may be illegal doesn't make it wrong, and just because something may be legal doesn't make it right.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Is it Ok? Its certainly becoming more commonplace and socially acceptable, whatever the moral or legal standpoint.

I worked for a big university not long ago, piracy was pretty rife amongst the staff, let alone the students.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I really think there is a connection to convenience/opportunity, chances of being caught and of course, social acceptability. All of that and the other rationalizations contained within this thread don't change the simple fact that it is theft.

To answer the original question, "Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?" well really that's your decision. No one else can absolve you of the consequences of your actions. It's your decision alone. Just asking the question shows you have doubts, I say be your own man, it's your choice.

BTW, I am a bit surprised at the amount of "voters" who think it's okay.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I wasn't arguing right or wrong at the time. I thought it was agreed at this point in this educational thread that those terms are too subjective.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Oh, well in that case there's really no discussion at all.

Legally (at least in most/all the US) it doesn't matter why you obtained pirated software - you can still be fined/imprisoned for it.

Unless you have a damn good attorney.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I live in Australia, I was sure paypal was worldwide :3

I'm still fighting the while you need a visa credit card to buy things online.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Thank god I'm not in the US.

I got 5 warning emails from different movie studios threatening legal action for being in a torrent swarm, forwarded by my backstabbing ISP,

I left the ISP for one that was known to ignore threats and not cooperate. Their customer base sky rocketed for being one of the few to not take crap from international corporations. I love you iiNet:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadshow_Films_v_iiNet

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

When I was in college I couldn't afford to upgrade from Win 3.11 to Win95. So I just got into Linux. Now we have a Linux based company of over 300 engineers and growing... :-)
In short. I can afford software today, but I still love linux. I use a Macbook pro with Linux.

I wouldn't recommend piracy. It is bad.

When you get out of college you would develop software and expect people to pay for it.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

I didn't realize that. Very cool. I think Nokia just caters the lowest common denominator which is standard VISA. Buying stuff without a credit card online is very difficult. Good luck with that.

Re: Is it okay for a student with limited financial resources to pirate software?
 

Bolding your points don't make them any more right. If it's good enough to listen doesn't mean it's good enough to buy. Especially at those prices. Depending on the target economy and exchange rate, a standard DVD is 25% of minimum wage and more expensive then the player.

I don't listen over and over, I don't have a laptop and I don't need it. Demonizing me doesn't invalidate any argument I made.

Neither does the idea that rationalizing makes a point invalid.

I pay for most of the things I use and play. But I know full well that I do so because I can afford to. I was presenting another side of the argument and catching flack for it. I thought a different view would stimulate intelligent conversation, instead I managed to organize a mob.

So, that's it for me on this line of discussion. You'll have to make a different shaped straw man to fight.