Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Just a few more praises for n800. I was able to use it today completely without stylus while floating in my pool. Of course i had device in ziploc just in case... But all the features respond great to finger typing. The only bad thing was this forum's color scheme. Difficult to read in the sun.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Ahh... See that little box bottom left in the forum window?

No? Well, go inside and look again... Right, that one. Tap it and you can choose a more pool-friendly theme.

BTW, many gracias on the ziplock-tip. Gotta try that one out... Or maybe not, I don't always enjoy living dangerously.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

DOH! Thanks!

I think it's pretty safe even if dropped into the water. Those ziplocs are airtight.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I want to apologize for my part in the recent firmware hype. It started as small hints regarding improvements for developers, then snowballed once the community got stoked over Skype. I had asked if backing off would be preferrable and didn't receive much in the way of affirmation; indeed, some posters said the speculation was entertaining (especially given lack of formal communications) and to let it ride. I see in hindsight that was probably not a good idea.

Regarding formal communications, I recently appealed for a review of the way that's handled and was soundly slapped down. That incident has caused me to spend the past several days rethinking certain activities. I have concluded, based on that disappointing result and now the community's letdown over this new firmware release, to follow-up on a past urge and throttle back my activities. From this point forward I am just another tablet user (who happens to have some 770 covers and N800 faceplates). I am no longer a tablet cheerleader, nor will I attempt to stoke any flames. It just isn't worth it.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Too bad, we loved to have "somebody" to complain to :)
But i fully understand your point.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I don't think Texrat that you have to feel responsible. We all are participating to the circus and should assume the situation as such a circus, with its positive and negative sides.

It s true, a few among us know more of what is going on in the R&D process, and leaks happens here and there. It s always nice to communicate over those agendas, but we should always pay attention to qualify them as "uncertain information" not certain information.

If s-o knows something, and talks or even hints about it on this forum , then the community will ask for more: when? how? why? It becomes impossible to manage. On the other hand such agenda make the forum very lively, no?

"when scissors cut the paper, very smart is the one who can tell which scissor actually cuts"

Cheer up!

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Well, the slapdown from the other side was the far more discouraging event.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I'm not disappointed, it seems like they focused on the right things. Gotta have a solid base to grow on, and thats what this firmware seems like to me.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Texrat, you sound even more despondent then some of us feel. It is easy to get the impression that you see yourself as having been led on and let down and so are taking this firmware disappointment personally.

I respect your taking the time out to post this and it can't have been comfortable for you, not least as an N800 enthusiast.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

You nailed it Rebski. Thanks much.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

my personal advice try it with your S-E first. if it s ruined then you re up for a brand new smartphone ;-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I think there is a problem, but it's Nokia's not yours. A lot of promises were made and
implied by Nokia ads and publicity. Since the N800 never fully lived up to its hype,
those who trust Nokia naturally expected it to supply fixes by way of upgrade. We
waited a heck of a long time for this anemic upgrade.

The N800 is nice, but it could have been a contender. I don't see enough effort being made to compete successfully with companies like Apple. In the meantime, the N800 fits my needs more or less perfectly, so I will just keep enjoying it for what it is, for as long as it lasts.

Nokia needs people like Texrat participating here. This is the center of the N800 world, and its fate will be determined here. If Nokia doesn't understand that, it cannot succeeed.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

geneven,

I agree with everything you say.

Mike.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I think that Nokia by been so removed from the audience is really missing some things. I believe that the corporation should communicate with their audience. I am assuming that at least a couple of people over at Nokia read this forum and surely they could have sensed that a letdown was being created by all the meaningless hype. All they would have to do is instruct Ari Jaaksi to release a blog post or even a forum post to say that there would be no BT support, and no skype video support or something along those lines to temper the rabbid fanbase.
Texrat its unfortunate that the higher ups don't realize how much of an advantage they have in having an employee embedded in the user community, I for one think the new update is a step in the right direction.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Mobile, I appreciate it and agree... but my own comments along those lines were met with swift and strong resistance.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Nokia is taking "baby steps" in improving the N800 while it's competitors are taking leaps and bounds towards greater achievements and products in the internet/phone tablet market.

I feel at this point in time Nokia's corporate cultural will keep the company in the position of a non-leader. They need to study companies like Apple, Toyota etc.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

That was absolutely dumb for Nokia to do. Indeed, if they had allowed you to do what you had proposed to them, it could have avoided so many misunderstandings and false expectations! Very dumb of you, Nokia! Very dumb!

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Typing this from the tablet. I'm going to keep rambling to see if they resolved the stupid Opera text entry bug.

ThThThis is a new paragraph. Omg it seems to be working. This makes me quite happy.
Oh
how I love my little tablet again.

Nope. It's still ****ed up.
up.
up.
oes it work?rk?rk?is is a new paragraph. Omg it seems to be working. This makes me quite happy. Oh how I love my little tablet again.

Lame.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Not a bad idea. I'll wait till october though -- see my thread in "competitors" for the explanation.

Actually, at the moment I'm in two minds whether to dunk the old (working) P910 in the pool, or the N800. It'll depend on how soon and how well Nokia is going to solve the firmware mess...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Companies only have so many tries to get something right. Customers only have so much patience. I hope to God the right Nokians are paying attention...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Does nobody else have this text entry problem when using full screen? Try typing 2 or 3 paragraphs and editing them with fullscreen mode. It completely hoses the formatting.

You can see what happens 2 posts up.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

They really didn't though. The only thing which has been committed to was Skype which has been delivered (albeit a week late).

The hype and expectation was caused my members of this forum whipping themselves into a frenzy. Really, anyone who was expected a Maemo 4/Chinook-based OS with updated Flash, updated Opera, Java, a brand new whizzy iPhone-like interface, improved email client, improved *everything* was just plain delusional.

It was obvious people were going to be disappointed. It was obvious that there'd be some under-the-cover improvements and bug fixes, it was obvious it'd be another Bora release (i.e. Maemo 3.x). The only bit I wouldn't have expected (if Texrat hadn't said anything) was Flash 9... but then that doesn't really bother me either.

Agreed 100%.

Cheers,

Andrew

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Yes. Many of us (including myself) all expecting too much and we incline to take hints and rumours for granted. Moreover, - but I nknow nothing about OS development pace- maybe it s illusional to expect quantum leap improvement 17 weeks after the previous release?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

There are many Nokia people related to the Maemo program that are reading these forums. Take me for instance. I'm a member of the interaction design team for Maemo. (Check out http://maemointeraction.wordpress.com btw. - plugplug! One way to communicate directly to the UI design team.)

Anyway, we cannot really go into a mode where we would read all the hype and start confirming/shooting it down one by one. That's not what any company in this field really does. Think about Apple or MS or anyone. There are many reasons, fortunately or unfortunately for that. Legal, implementation, contractual, marketing etc. Publicly committing beforehand to certain features in a certain schedule really limits the flexibility. Of course we then shouldn't be a in a mode where we would fan the flames of hype, so to speak.

Also it then depends a bit on the definition of a new feature. Things like bugs are actively being discussed in our bugzilla system. (And we're working on to further improve this.)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

It s nice to see the hand of God or his little finger :-) touching us through the clouds...

Personally I understand the business constraints you list and the way Andrew has described the cycle of "hype and desillusion".
However - IMO- it remains that the prime factor for all this is and this is a positive side: the potential of the IT, even more as it s Linux based. To achieve this potential requires a lot of work, patience and communication between design, development, applications level, and end users.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I don't agree that the hype was created here. Go back and look at some of those daffy commercials. Wasn't there video in them? Users were depicted doing some far-out things. I'll try to hunt one up and look at again. Maybe the realistic thing was to assume that Nokia was just lying its head off, but I thought that Nokia was announcing what it was going to do with the N800.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

It felt good to read your post ragnar.

I don't believe anyone expects Nokia to officially respond to forum hype, so let's take that permanently off the table of discussion, okay?

The essential point here is that rumors emerge in the absence of facts. Granted, there are indeed details which Nokia MUST hold secret-- few are arguing that. And not everyone expects a day-to-day diary of details. That's unrealistic.

But the fact remains that there are STILL communication gaps that can be easily filled, with proactive dispensations designed to keep the tablet users (and especially developers) encouraged. This could be as basic, for one example, as an occasional "we're still working on getting Skype ready so hold on!".

It is the dearth of such bon mots that rumor and user-generated hype arise. The element that seems strangely lost on Nokia is that the tablets poke farther into the Open Source community than any device of its kind. That has tickled the interest of hardcore folks who strongly disagree with the percentage of proprietary components involved. It may well be impossible to make these OS advocates completely happy, but in my opinion more outreach should be done than has been. This doesn't mean giving up trade secrets, a conclusion some Nokians mistkenly assume from such requests. It means being as open and honest as reasonably possible and striving for consensus mutually beneficial to Nokia and its intelligent purchaser base.

The tablet users are far more savvy than your average Mac or Windows user. To a large extent, the community has been deeply steeped in the Linux world which is far, far different than anything involved in commercial enterprises. I realize the development team should be able to get that, but that understanding doesn't seem apparent to the tablet community, which in general is very surprised at some moves... and especially the silence.

The sad and ironic thing is, were this true Open Source, the community would have solved those significant lingering bugs long ago, and cut your development time by a large portion. They know this, and it galls them. They WANT to help. They are frustrated at not being able to, as they would in any other true Open Source endeavor.

But, lacking that level of involvement, at least throw a bone or two out to the community on occasion. No trade secrets. No defensive posturing, either. Just a periodic "hey guys, we're still alive!". That sort of effort can work up some truly important good will, and perhaps mitigate the forum frenzy.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

That's okay. Come november, we'll all load OpenMoko on the tablet and happily forget about Nokia software "development".

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

..and then it will be as it was in Zaurus-land, until something new comes around ?:-)

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Why not? Isn't that the Linux way: If it works, don't break it. If it doesn't work, ditch it and don't look back?

My QTopia-based Archos still works, and never crashes; I have a complete(-ish) Office suite for it (albeit obtained on a legally shakey basis) and all the programs I need for it. Heck, I can even plug in a USB keyboard and mouse and use a TV as monitor. Bear in mind that it was intended as a beefed-up media player.

The problem with the N800 is that a lot (and I mean a LOT!) of the basic functionality that QTopia gives, is missing from Maemo, even considering the geriatric condition of QTopia. I don't want the latest and hottest, I just want enough stuff to do what I need to do.

Consider this: Since 2005 many, many people have been asking for a decent port of Abiword to ITOS. It has become clear that there is not enough incentive from the OSS community to make this happen (which is not a complaint: OSS developers are allowed to do what they want; I don't pay their salary, so I don't get to set their agendas), and yet Nokia has done zilch all in this field. The same goes for a lot of other applications the community has been asking for.

It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!" and just sit back and assume they are great contributors to the Open Source movement.

I really like the N800 (and my 770 as well), but this attitude is beginning to seriously bug me. Just have a look at OpenMoko.org and OpenMoko.com to see how a real open platform should look like. I can still remember (heck, everyone can by going into the archives of this forum) how people reacted and gave suggestions after Nokia announced the 770. Exactly 0 (zero) of those suggestions made it into the consumer-ready version of the 770. The OpenMoko folks have adapted the hardware platform even before it came out, based on community feedback.

Now that I like...

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Got myself a new desktop PC the other week. Most of the hardware is by Intel. Should I go and ask Intel for all the software I need/want? A word processor, great strategy games, a VoIP-client, ...? Would you? Probably not, because you know that there's people who do the hardware and there's people who do the software.

Nokia is the company who does the hardware. I understand it is their intention that it should be others who do the software; just to get things working, there's a few applications pre-installed, similar to a pre-installed Windows on a new PC.

I think its a reasonable strategy. The only thing they did wrong was to incorporate hardware thats unsupported in free software land, which prevents other variants of GNU/Linux to run on the device.

And: Yes, they are great contributors to the free software movement. Didn't we all read how now even their competitors plan to re-use the components they developed?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Thanks for addressing, I too don't believe you should go into a forum and start shooting down rumors, however when you deal with a market that is as savvy as this one I feel that they can be respected with a different level of interaction than is granted the regular Windows/Mac/Symbian user.
Also I think since the community is relatively small a little bit of interaction will result in a larger result than expected. It would be really interesting to know how many devices had been shipped/sold as compared to other Nokia devices such as mobile phones etc.

Anyway thanks a lot for all the hard work, I already enjoy this device and appreciate your input into the situation.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Your comparison is seriously flawed. A more accurate one would have been to compare the Internet Tablet to Apple computers, but I guess that would have been less convenient.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

You should all have "Nokia" appended (or prefixed) to your usernames so that we know who you are! :D

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Why?
Why?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I see I need to elaborate on that original one-liner (I tend to be a bit terse when using the on-screen tapboard on the tablet, nothing like a real keyboard :-)...

Actually I mostly agree with you, as sometimes happens, except maybe for the end bit.

What I meant is that when I bought into the 770, and its proclaimed future, I had been using a Zaurus for some time. The hardware was fantastic for its time (and still unequaled in some respects, just like a Psion or a Newton), and the system & software probably OK at the very beginning. But it had already been clear for some time that Sharp was just riding its original masterstroke, and milking the platform's domestic success, with very few improvements from one hardware model to the next (750 vs 760 vs 860, anyone ?...) and just about none in the system/software department. The result was that outside of Japan the Zaurus lived, and still lives, just as if Sharp didn't exist, and mostly though its enthusiast user base. Unfortunately, from a user's point of view, the results were/are not pretty : fragmentation, quarrels between teams, dozens of competing ROMs incompatible with each other, and not one that you could call feature complete and/or user-ready.

In late 2005 I believed the 770 was another nice, innovative bit of hardware, but one that might escape such a sorry fate because its maker seemed to "get" the open-source game, thought globally, sold it worldwide, and looked like it could pull a "benevolent dictator" trick : allow the enthusiast community to grow and breed the platform, while acting as a central clearinghouse to maintain its unity and consistency. This is a known hallmark of many successful OSS standards : Linux/Torvalds, Samba/Tridgell, Python/van Rossum, Perl/Wall, etc., etc.

I do agree with you that in this matter, despite much posturing and feeble (or not very visible) attempts, Nokia's delivery has been utterly disappointing.

At this point, sadly, it looks like another (big) company unable to play the trump cards in its hands before it's too late, to relate to its user base, and recognize the value of its inside assets (that's for you Tex :-).

I hope I'm wrong, but this mess reminds me of the recent "History of Psion" recently published by the Register :
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/26/psion_special/

Psion had a dominant, first-to-market position, innovative projects, and the right people to implement them (some of which later went on to create the iPod and Tom Tom success stories). Yet it faltered through lack of vision, lack of user communication, mismanagement, strategic errors and fear of competitors. Ring any bells ?

However, I don't share your optimism concerning OpenMoko. Yes, they have an innovative hardware approach ; but history shows that the problem is software, not hardware. Without someone with the right attitude at the helm, what's to prevent this new platform to also become a wasteland of half-baked, mostly abandoned hacker efforts ?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Hi, I work at Nokia for maemo and the Internet Tablet projects. I have recently blogged about feedback and communication between Nokia and the community: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/373

Some thoughts after reading this thread.

- I agree we have to improve our communications with the community. Ideas are welcome (please keep reading).

- "Silence" is a tough accusation though. In the maemo.org context @nokia.com people are discussing with users and developers regularly.

- I guess the "silence" accusation comes from the fact that nobody is answering officially as Nokia in ITT discussions. I'm really not sure if Nokia members should commit to be active here, in an independent (and successful, and pretty cool) forum. Does anybody expect answers from Mozilla, OOo, Ubuntu, (etc) developers out of their own channels of feedback and discussion?

- If you want to know/influence the plans for maemo and the Nokia Internet Tablets your main reference is http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html . You hit that roadmap after going through the process suggested there: filing enhancement requests or proposals on wiki pages at maemo.org and communicating them to the maemo mailing lists.

- Let's agree that not every ITT contributor can/will go happily through that process even if her idea is good and feasible. But let's also agree that we can't compromise to be active in all the discussions happening out of our official channels. The role of the senior contributors or the highly interested is very relevant: they can pick interesting ideas in i.e. ITT, develop and push them into our process.

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

(snipped all the stuff I agree with, because -- well, because I totally agree with it)

OpenMoko is indeed taking its first baby-steps, but you have to agree that they appear to be listening to their user base: They just quadrupled the flash memory, almost doubled the processor speed and included WiFi b/g, all the things prospective users and developers had been asking (I'm assuming the motion sensors and the graphics accelerator were a free bonus ;) ). To me, that shows commitment. If Nokia had done that, we'd have started with the N800 (OK, minus the camera, because it's lame)!

Also, if you go to http://www.openmoko.org/ and check the place out, you'll find that there are already quite a few projects in development, and the device isn't even out yet!

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

Don't you know?

Re: Tablet Advocacy
 

I agree that not every ITT contributor will go through that process - it's apparent that not every ITT contributor is even willing to file bug reports let alone file a detailed roadmap request.

However this site (ITT) is your litmus for how well Nokia is progressing and highly indicative of where some of the big problems are (from a humble end users point of view). For example, Thoughtfix has already submitted a roadmap request for Bluetooth PAN support but it should be obvious from the pain expressed on this forum that Bluetooth PAN support is an absolute necessity and not merely a wishlist item.

While I agree that we (the users) should assist Maemo and Nokia by submitting concrete requests for new functionality, it should also be possible for Maemo/Nokia to moderate their strategy based on some of the feedback available in this forum.

Nokia employees have attempted to be active in this forum in the past (Texrat) but for some reason the powers that be don't seem to appreciate his involvement - I think that's a missed opportunity.