Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Ok, I love horse racing so I think I can carry this metaphor far. :) Symbian used to race in stakes races(smart phones) but has gotten very old and is now relegated to cheap claiming races and can no longer earn more than it costs for stable space, feed and vet bills. It's time to retire her and let her become a riding pony for awhile, then put her out to pasture. WP7 is a 2-year-old who hasn't won its first maiden race yet but is showing good early speed and has just been claimed by an owner who's pairing her with one of the world's top trainers. The horse also has a superb pedigree/genes. Once the horse's few problems are ironed out she stands to be a formidible competitor on the track.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

And who doesn't want a pony?

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

I got yelled at for claiming MeeGo is a UI layer on top of regular Linux. I was told that MeeGo has "layers" that make it MeeGo and that's why Smeegol wasn't MeeGo. I'm assuming that MeeGo's employing a new desktop framework or something (for notifications, data sharing, etc.) and apps will need to take advantage of those libraries to be fully integrated, but I don't know. That's because we haven't seen MeeGo yet. :) I don't believe any pics of the final smartphone UI (unlike the tablet UI) were ever released.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Well, I won't yell at you for saying that. I don't know what Smeegol is but I think they mean binary compatibility with Meego. If you have the source for the program you can make it run on any linux/x11 distro. But for a binary (possibly proprietary) program to work on both Smeegol and Meego they must use ABI compatible versions of all packages that they are built on. Nowadays most stuff just works but sometimes things break when packages (i.e Qt) are not of the same version. For me Meego could just as well be called Fedora Mobile.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

except meego is not strictly for mobile only.
IPTV/mediabox,In vehicle systems,tablets,netbook etc.
Just bottom layer for these environments. Basically stuff where android + google are slowly going.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

But the WM7 "horse" has a blood lineage tracing back to donkeys such as WM6.5, 6.1, 6.0, 5.1 that was fully neglected for too many years and Microsoft did sweet F all to maintain it (still running on Pocket IE4/6!!).

How many people owned the HTC WinMO's who instantly converted to Android overnight when the hack was available?

Thats why this "horse" Winmo is destined to lose.. because its family has already hit rock bottom and will repeat itself again with that track record!

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

I will sum up the capability's of WP7s multitasking and other software features.

WindowsPhone7=Huge Pile of S H I T

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

I don't get it, WP7 is very young (only ~5 months?), give it 10 years?

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

14 years of development and millions of dollars, c'mon, young?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_CE

All OS develop over time, like Symbian, S60, Symbian^3.
Or Android 1.0, Android 2.2, Android 2.3

It's no excuse WP7 is young, just because it had a name change.

And seriously, multi-core support is no picnic to make. It took years to have everything in Linux thread-safe and support multiple processors.

As the Plan B says, lets give Microsoft a chance to show what it can give, by making two Nokia-WP7 phones for North American market and try to get operators to love them. If it works, sure, make more.

But do not stop Meego development because that is really a way to be really different and (IMHO) the best. Many Android-developers would jump to Meego straight if it would additionally have Dalvik VM.
Nokia should concentrate to get Meego UI and the most important OS applications ready and shining. It wouldn't matter there is not much Qt-apps, if under FOSS or Alien Dalvik we could run thousands of Android-apps.

In my personal opinion Qt+QML = QtQuick is a mess. C++ itself is a mess (compared to Java) but having two syntaxes (C++, QML) and totally new design patterns are a real trouble.
Sure, support QtQuick in Meego, of course, but support Android and Java apps too.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

It says dual core support here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Embedded_Compact_7

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

No it says: "will contain these features". Sure, in a few years. In the mean time it is just a place holder, or vaporware.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Yes it says, lets wait and see if it comes to WP7 also. (You did read the whole text?)

But as I said, yes give MS a chance with Nokia also and try couple of WP7 Nokia phones in North-America. But do not throw everything else away to bet on this very unsure and risky card:
http://www.asymco.com/2011/02/11/in-...bile-partners/

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

That Nokia Plan B group doesn't seem to have the techical ability to run a simple web site, much less a huge company. First of all the server keeps crashing. Second, they are running Apache 1.3.x which is years obsolete. Third, they are transcluding Google APIs into the page, giving Google (Nokia's most dangerous competitor) the IP addresses of everyone who visits the Nokia Plan B site. Not too bright for a group that wants to take over the management of Nokia. I do like most of their general ideas though.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

It is funny how everybody know so well what Nokia should do except Nokia themselves. I wonder how they became the largest when they don't know anything at all. Complete vacuum.

Besides, the don't throw everything else away. At least be honest.

I have to add that WP+Nokia will be MUCH larger in Europe than in NA. Ordinary folks don't care about the OS, they look at the phone in the shop, see a high quality Nokia with a fluent and nice OS with a MS logo, Ovi (bing) maps and think: nice, got to have one.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

That may be true for low end phones. But if you have to spend some real money on it, you will do your research first.

Of course, in the US, where most people buy subsidized phones the situation may be different. But over here, techies have a lot of influence over our friends, family, and coworkers. See how well Android has done over here. I have been waiting for the "last step" Nokia device to appear to be able to direct people to it. In the mean time, even though I own an N900 and love it, I have had to direct people to Android phones.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

plan b

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQjh9H-ymK4

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

@rm42
it's true. About 5-7 friends of mine who have too much money and too little time ask for example from me all things about ps3,bluray,television,smartphones and laptops/desktops before they buy anything.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

I'm still working on my 'haha'...

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

I really don't think so. WP7 IS a nice OS, immature and lacking in many ways at the moment, but it really is nice and pleasant. Nokia makes the best HW, the quality of reception, the quality of the sound, the cameras, the solid feel - even on the ones made of plastic. On top of this is the ecosystem with maps, stores, music, mail - everything. People know Nokia and they know MS, even the ones that love to hate both. They hardly need to advertise, they can simply say - here, this is all you will ever need, and people will know it for a fact without any explanation at all.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Ehh, isn't this one of the minor difficulties with Symbian, ie the kernel would have to be rewritten to be able to use multi-core CPUs? And the big thing for Nokia is that Nokia clearly hasn't been capable to develop Symbian fast enough to keep up with the competition. I've got the impression that Nokia has realized that they can't afford to goof around any longer and that something radical had to be done.

And in addition, Symbian is dead on the US market regardless of how Nokia would have been able to develop it simply because a couple of American bloggers have declared that Symbian is **** because Symbian <> iOS and mainstream media ( and therefore the majority of potentional customers ) accepts this as gospel ...

Personally I think that one of Nokia's biggest errors was to try to turn Symbian into an Open Source project, they lost a lot of momentum (and even more critically, time) when that failed. All Open Source projects aren't successes and the Symbian thingy was clearly a failure.

And all of you who wish that Vanjoki would have been appointed CEO, keep in mind that regardless of his ability to perform, he actually was responsibile for the major areas where Nokia's smartphones have failed to keep up with the competition. The numbers don't lie.

I don't claim that I like current devlopements :mad:, but at least Nokia is trying to shake up itself.

I don't like what probably will be the fate of MeeGo but at the same time one has to be realistic, a MeeGo based phone would be more of an überphone than a phone for the joggingdresspeople and the joggingdresspeople are numerous and do buy a lot of phones, and wp7 is aimed at the joggingdresspeople ....:D

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

@ericsson

Yes, because they don't know what they could get. But for those people you could also sell a Series40 to and put some rhinestones on it. It would have nearly the similar effekt.

Where is the bash shell on that Windows Phone 7?
When will it come?!

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Nokia's strategy before Elop was to develop Meego to high end phones (multiple core CPU) and leave Symbian to low end phones.
It was never intended to bring multi-core-app-CPU support to Symbian.

Meego could be anything. The GUI part of the OS is what is important to "ordinary" people, I agree". WP7 has some things right in their GUI, so does Modrana. But it is easier to change the GUI than change underlying OS to support modern hardware, if it was designed to do so (WP7 vs Meego/Linux).

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

My gosh, I've never heard the argument against WP7 put so eloquently. My eyes are opened! Your arguments are astoundingly well thought out and convincing. Surely your intelligence FAR surpasses my own humble intellect.

Who could possibly hope to counter this masterpiece of an argument? No one, I think. Your logic is flawless and ironclad.

Socrates, Plato, and all the other philosophers and intelligent men throughout history would surely bow in respect to such a vast and powerful mind as your own, for only you are capable of such wondrously capable debate.

Microsoft will surely disband the moment your post graces its perception.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

This question is the perfect example of the mindset of this community. WP7 isn't linux. Its not about whether it has the same features as linux, its that IT WORKS COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY. There IS NO "filesystem" as it exists in linux. There is only isolated storage for each app. Bash is useless in this sort of environment, because it underlies a way of thinking about OS's that simply doesn't fit with the way WP7 works as an operating system.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

WP7 also doesn't support many modern hardware- and GUI-requirements:
copy+paste, multi-core-app-CPUs, multitasking, ....should I go on?
Do you really think, they will get those fixed in few months?
Plan B is way much better than Plan A, if we remember the facts.

Yes, Elop has hundred of thousands Microsoft stocks, but the trick failed and MSFT didn't get their stock to bull because so many people just don't believe Microsoft Mobile strategy - they have failed 14 years so why trust them?

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Good arguments. I was only addressing specifically the bash issue. There are certainly shortcomings that I don't think ever will get addressed related to the extendability of certain OS components that the n900 had, but I digress.

Yes. They're slated for release in a fall update. Link.

Thats probably when we'll see a MeeGo phone, which I will be exicted to read about.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot the sarcasm marks. Will add them the next time. But I had a bad weekend... you understand?

And for your background: I worked with the .NET Framework for about 2 years at work. And not at a Linux Desktop! ;)

But I had now for about 14 Months a Device with Linux shell in my pocket... and it is my first Linux expirience, except a short time back 1998 with SUSE (or 1999? - I don't remember)... and after a Android Device, some Serie40 and some Symbian Devices there is NO WAY BACK!
I have already bought a second N900 at eBay. Just in case...

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Doesn't say anything about multi-core support.
Just notice, all high end smart phones published in Barcelona MWC have double-core app-CPUs (with 1GB RAM). WP7 smart phone with single core CPU have no chance in the high end sector.

And WP7 doesn't even have apps. Android store have hundred of thousands applications.
Only Meego with Android VM could have a fighting chance.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Looks like nobody has pointed out yet that there is an article about Plan B in today's Wall Street Journal:

"A group of nine unnamed Nokia shareholders published a manifesto online Tuesday, dubbed Nokia Plan B, that sets out to counter the firm's management at Nokia's AGM scheduled May 3 in Helsinki. In addition to a call for the immediate dismissal of Elop, the group said they want Nokia to be in control of its own smart phone operating system, MeeGo to be its primary smart phone platform, to increase the lifespan of Symbian to a minimum of five years, and a restructuring of the Microsoft deal as a tactical strategy focused on North America.

Dow Jones couldn't immediately identify the authors, who stated they have all worked with Nokia in different capacities in the past.

Nokia said it is aware of the anonymous letter being published, but that it hasn't been directly contacted by its authors.

"Nokia's new strategy has full approval from the board of directors and the Nokia leadership team, and our focus now is on the execution of this new strategy," Nokia spokeswoman Mona Kopponen told Dow Jones.

However, in the wake of the purported challenge, other Nokia shareholders have voiced their qualified support for the company's new strategic direction."

More here, at "3rd UPDATE: Nokia Shareholders Divided On Strategy View"

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

... is lame from birth.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Now do you see the eloquent truth in deyons statement?

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

Devil's advocate here... so regard me accordingly.

However, what are you comparing it to? If you say Maemo, I've owned three Maemo devices and they were hack worthy, but not mass market worthy - not that I think WP7 is there either, just stating the obvious.

And if you mean MeeGo, at least WP7 came out. So I guess I have to ask what are you comparing WP7 in such a negative light?

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

The Microsofties are at it again. Those naughty boys.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/19111...o_reality.html

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

..........

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

I like the idea that they are proposing, but if they cannot provide a financial projection there is no way they are going to succeed with this. As someone else has pointed out, its all about ROIs, and unless they can show that their vision and execution would result in better ROI, its going to be a tough sell.

Not to mention IF they do this, there is going to be a huge market backlash again, because Nokia is once again changing directions after making an announcement, wouldn't inspire much confidence in the company.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

(OK, not knowing anything about WP7 internals, I'll take your word for it.)

IOW, WP7 is a broken OS -- or, to put it less caustically and more precisely, WP7 is an anachronism, a step decades backward in the evolution of computing. Even the iPhone, from version one (with the deja vu-ful lack of basic features that every other OS has), ran a skeletized modern OS (complete with filesystem) under the hood, with its insanely protective restrictions on data access applied over top of that.


Here, kid, take this nickel and get yourself a real OS...

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

I stick to my statement, it seems that you didn't even understand that.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

It's not broken, it's just different. The idea is that sandboxing applications means that users don't have to worry about what a particular application could be doing or what data it has access to, just what services, and these can be specifically allowed/disallowed.

Sure this is not good for us geeks, and the alternative is for everything to be open and allow us to study the sourcecode to understand what the app is doing before it is run but the fact is the vast majority of users prefer a sandboxed environment where they can - at least for the most part - trust that a rogue application can't mess with their system or data.

In the end the promise that Nokia will make a MeeGo device is enough for me. It means that we get an open OS that we can do whatever we want with it and the company remains profitable by selling to market demands.

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

err... you haven't looked the nokias financial at all, have you?

Re: Nokia Plan B
 

It's really simple man, go to google, type in "nokia stock" and look at it. It's never dropped that fast since april last year when "smartphone competition hits nokia, shares dive".
It's not normal, it's triggered by the news. Do yourself a favor and don't become an investor if you still don't get it :)